Sinar Hy6 first impressions

[PeterA]

I had the opportunity to play with a Sinar Hy6 on the weekend. I have been looking forward to seeing this camera because i have a Leaf back. I am considering what my long term medium format system should be.<p> I wont be buying an Hy6 or an AFi - unless a few things happen. Firsty, the autofocus is clunky, slow and loud compared to Hasselblad. Secondly, the Sinar software is crap - and that is saying sometheing because Leaf is very ordinary. Thirdly i see no reason to switch from H series lenses to Schneider or Roliie - in fact the opposite.

i am surprised by my initial response to this much anticipated alternative system - because I really wanted out of Hasselblad. If it wasn't for my love of the Leaf on the Alpa - i would exit out of MFDB completely. i am now thinking that it might be more worthwhile for me to try out a 39 megapixel Hasselblad back. that way I keep all my H glass and V glass and let Sinar/leaf/PhaseOne develop over time or not.

 

[mark1958]

I really want there to be an alternative to the Hasselblad as well. I am disappointed by the prospects based on your conclusions.

 

[PeterA]

Mark - all the digi backs make great files. Each manufacturer has its own 'strategy' and approach. Each digi back has its strengths and weaknesses. But I am not buying into a digi back - I am buying into a digi back which connects to a camera body which connects to lenses. As important - is also hwo teh file is extracted and how easilly and flexibly the databack manufacturers allow for the data to be ported out to post shot software.

I like to take a wholistic view. how does the whole thing work together from my point of view based on my use age preferences.

In Australia - Sinar and leaf are going to ask buyers to pay $45,000 or there abouts for a 33 megapixel back a camera body and one lens. Sinar at least allows the user to buy multiple back adaptor to fit on pretty much any camera body any time - at a cost.

but Sinar doesnt even produce DNG files and its native software - capture shop is pathetic. The back manufacturers have by and large hidden behind the studio pro need for tethered shooting - since Adobe doesnt support this - yet. Yes there are workarounds for Sinar to get DNG files from people who have written teh code to do it - but WHY should someone shell out tens of thousands of dollars to a company whose basic software doesn't allow for basic workflow functionaity? NO way would a pro buy into this as it standsand thei rsales figures show it.

Leaf and Sinar share the same chip - at least Leaf allows for DNG files and Adobe etc open their native files . but Leaf want you to switch to the AFi adaptor plate if you up want to use an Afi. What if you don't like the Afi? What if Alpa dont make an Afi adptor plate? What about hooking a Leaf to different systems like MF view cameras? the H series or v series adaptor is the industry standard.

I think that the tethered shooting thing is just another hook into allowing these companies to dodge the hard questions about their software inadequacies.

Then you go to camera bodies. the H series camera was brought out years ago. I have not even had a firmware upgrade because I haven't needed one. Hasselblad want you to go to your dealer to get it done - at least Afi/Hy 6 you can do it yourself . BUT the autofocus - WOW ..maybe I had a bad example maybe they can fix it..a lot of maybes for a hugely expensive camera I reckon - when I KNOW that H series cameras work very well. Didnt do the Hy6 any help that we were shooting and using the H series with Leaf back at the same time as Hy6 with Sinar back. People complain about the Leaf back LCD not being bright enough - WOW the Sinar LCD is tiny and useless totally out doors.

regarding ergonomics - I wanted to like the Hy6 it looks beautiful - I agree that it is like holding a V series Hasselblad - I didnt get to test it with the prism finder maybe that will help. the hand grip changeability in angle is a nice gimmick. the body 'felt' much more fragile than my old H1. the plastic bits were plastic looking more like a good looking Mamiya than an upmarket Hasselblad.

sigh ...I guess it is early days for the camera and maybe when the actual sale ready cameras are out the new Sinar software ( expose - which they cant get to work as I write 0 will work and the workflow will be better - a whole lot of maybe could be should be hopefully talk though ) so in conclusion just to add some colour - and since I am NOT a working pro and therefore dont give one flying toss about offending any of these companies - as things stand Sinar and Leaf cameras - NOT MY MONEY! LOL

then you get to lenses - man Iliek a lens to feel liek a lens. I expect a lens that costs 4-5,000 dollars to be set in brass and to feel solid. Yes the H series has the aperture blades in the lens body and therefore should be heavier - but just do yourself a favour and pick up a Fujiblad lens feel the quality. i have no doubt that if Schneiders lens range is like their 80 - the take up will be very low.

Ok the Hy6/Afi will shoot to 1000 th of a second - thats about the only advantage I can see. Also the Hy6/AFi - is already built for a 6x6 full frame build. I could care less.

 

[David K]

Peter,
Thanks for sharing your impressions. If the Hy6 doesn't offer significant advantages over my Contax/Aptus kit it doesn't look like I'll be making any changes for a while. I agree with you that it's the entire system, including software, that has to work well together. I do hope they get their act together as it's nice to have viable options.

 

[irakly]

i am really thinking about just buyng a new back for my contax 645. afi did not impress me enough to shell out 30k

 

[PeterA]

PS i would like to be able to correct some of my ( many typos) but there is no edit button? So please accept my apologies for disgusting spelling - my typing isn't the best. i will be extra cautious in future. -

 

[mark1958]

Peter and David.. I agree with you both. I really like the Hasselblad H2 with the Leaf Aptus 65 back.. at least in terms of image quality. I also think the aptus LCD is good. The issue of being able to see it in bright light is overcome by adding the hood I purchased a few months back. The issue that just kills me is that I cannot use the 28mm HC lens and the same will likely be true of future lens releases.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Firsty, the autofocus is clunky, slow and loud compared to Hasselblad.

Strange, some users have reported the opposite.

Secondly, the Sinar software is crap - and that is saying sometheing because Leaf is very ordinary.

Could you elaborate? By the way, the new software (Exposure) will be out soon and it will use the DNG raw format, which means you can use the raw developer of your choice.

Thirdly i see no reason to switch from H series lenses to Schneider or Roliie - in fact the opposite.

Once again, can you elaborate?

 

[PeterA]

Relative to my H1 ( the camera system I previously desperately wished to DUMP) the example of the Hy6 I got to use in a side by side comparison had relatively
1. Slower focusing
2. Louder focusing
3. more searching when focusing

Sinar software is rubbish - I take it you use Capture 'Stop' - do you like my pun? - - as well as other software - what is your opinion? Regarding 'Exposure' as we speak it is vapourware - true or false? I mean allowing for DNG - is a big development for Sinar ...riiight??

Compared to my LF digi spec Schneider glass - this Schneider 80mm is down market in feel and build - if you get a chance compare the H series lenses or Contax series lenses and you will see what I mean. This is a build quality comment. I wont speak about image making quality - I didn't test for this under controlled circumstances - and I will probably never get to that stage - i couldnt be bothered wasting my time.

All this from someone who WANTED to switch to Sinar ( because of adaptor plate switchability - is gold for me) and also WANTED to switch OUT of Hasselblad. if anythign I was biased for Hy6.

Anyway ..as I said things may improve quickly...

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Sinar software is rubbish - I take it you use Capture 'Stop' - do you like my pun? -

Did you have problems with it? The current version is very stable for me. Never had a crash.

- as well as other software - what is your opinion? Regarding 'Exposure' as we speak it is vapourware - true or false? I mean allowing for DNG - is a big development for Sinar ...riiight??

It already works and some users have the beta version already. I just heard the public release will come out next month.

Compared to my LF digi spec Schneider glass - this Schneider 80mm is down market in feel and build

I haven't seen or touched that particular lens. The Rollei lenses I already own have exceptional build and feel so I am surprised. If you judged the whole lens lineup from one lens you may not have an accurate impression.

 

[PeterA]

whatever man...

 

[irakly]

i have to agree on the lens issue. the 2.8/80 schneider that came with afi looked and felt really crappy compared to older rolleiflex 6008 lenses. i do not think that optically it was in any way inferior to the manual focus lens (in fact, the rep lied that new lenses are made to higher tolerances), but the crappy feel really was a put-off.

 

[EH21]

I've got the Schneider 80mm AF lens and have to agree that I was initially put off by the noisy sound of the AF motor which lead me to believe it was similar to my cheapest EOS lenses. The feel of the focus ring movement also seems cheap especially when I compare it to one of my Leica lenses which is what I had in mind when I bought the Rollei. The 6008 AF body seems kind of wonky too. Some cheapo plastic stuff here and there, plus a lot of noise. Wow that mirror makes a wallop.

It's actually a very robust lens, with very very good optics. I'm just so impressed with the optics, I have forgotten about the noise. I really made a turnaround on the whole camera after I started to use it, and had a chance to really look over the results.

 

[PeterA]

EH21 - i think you described the working action and sound effects perfectly. I am sure that Schneider know how to make good optics - perhaps they need to hire a sound engineer to reduce noise. - and given that one of my hobbies is toolmaking - I am suspicious of grinding sounds...

 

[gogopix]

Certainly leaving room for Phase/Mamiya

but, as DividK says, why change..

my Contax 645 Phase 45+ hummin' along. Likely stay here for quite a while. Just don't see anything that will match much less dominate;

FFor first time buyers, well that's a different story..

even I was kind of rootin' for the H6Y (or is it HY6???)

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Peter, were you using Capture Shop with OSX Leopard? That is not a supported combination yet. Just a thought.

 

[gogopix]

I really want there to be an alternative to the Hasselblad as well. I am disappointed by the prospects based on your conclusions.

Mark
Didn't you once HAVE an alternative to the hassey?

I believe it was called Contax......

but then again, arent we all con...taxes?

Victor

 

[PeterA]

Graham, I was using on TIger. I think that all manufacturer's software 'works' in some shape or fashion. I am sure that when 'Expose' is in finished form it will work even better. However a cursory investigation of the basic functionality of the software ( in comparison say to Capture One or even Lightroom ) leaves much to be desired from my point of view. Still, that wasn't the deal breaker for me.

I am comparing the top line Sinar back on the new kid on the block camera body versus the functionality that my existing back and camera body deliver. My main use is hand held or tripod mounted occasionally on the Street or outdoors.

The H series camera works better ( for me).

Simple as that - I found my own initial impressions to be surprising because I wanted to buy into AFi as I already have a Leaf back.

I just had the Australian rep for Hasselblad in my offices today with their new HD3 and their 'alpha' edition software which will replace Flexcolour..and all I can say is that I was very impressed - for the workflow I like employing - there is no comparison with other fully integrated systems.

I can use my CF adaptor and use all the Zeiss lenses I want to from V mount days or the fast autofocus lenses from Fuji/blad - which in many guises I prefer - as they deliver a rendering similar to my apo Leica lenses - high contrast and lots of POP. the new 28 is pretty impressive.

For me the decision was pretty complicated because a lot of the gear I use is in H mount - not only the leaf back but also the Alpa gear I like. The Hasselblad backs have come a long way in the last 2 years and I see no great advantage in owning a Leaf or anyone else back anymore over the 39 megapixel Hasselblad.

I am relieved that my investigations have come to an end...

 

[kipling]

I had the opportunity to play with a Sinar Hy6 on the weekend. I have been looking forward to seeing this camera because i have a Leaf back. I am considering what my long term medium format system should be.<p> I wont be buying an Hy6 or an AFi - unless a few things happen. Firsty, the autofocus is clunky, slow and loud compared to Hasselblad. Secondly, the Sinar software is crap - and that is saying sometheing because Leaf is very ordinary. Thirdly i see no reason to switch from H series lenses to Schneider or Roliie - in fact the opposite.

i am surprised by my initial response to this much anticipated alternative system - because I really wanted out of Hasselblad. If it wasn't for my love of the Leaf on the Alpa - i would exit out of MFDB completely. i am now thinking that it might be more worthwhile for me to try out a 39 megapixel Hasselblad back. that way I keep all my H glass and V glass and let Sinar/leaf/PhaseOne develop over time or not.

I tend to agree with you completely pete. I tried the sinar emotion and the software before going with leaf - just wasn't what i wanted and the deler was no help. the leaf file, on the other hand, was exactly what i was looking for.
The problems arive though with the full package. the leaf software has been a pita. as for the camera platform, i went with contax. i don't regret the choice, but the fact that the camera is a dead end and taht end is getting closer and closer, an unbelievable battery hog, rentability is becomming harder and harder and the only zoom for the contax is not a stellar performer at a stagering price (if you can even find one) is driving me with dragging feet to decide on a future path.
and this is where hasselblad just makes since to me, body, lenses, back aqnd software all working together in a system that is there now, working, not beta bs, but tested to the bone. i am sick of the problems the mf/db world has put me against. for the money i'm shelling out it shoud all work. and if the hassy, after i've tested it (hopefully the last time i'll have to do this) is what it seems to be; a real working, upgradable, rentable, bombproof system with good glass...i'm in. I know the glass and i've used the h2, so i'm halfwy there already.

 

[PeterA]

Check it out Kip - would be interested in your thoughts on the matter of Hassleblad. I was set to downsize to a 22 meapixel back - until I saw the crops you can extract from the big boy. For a landscape shooter it is awesome to have that 39 megapixel firepower and resolution. i dont know if a studio shooter actually needs that kind of megapixel count. I am slo considering an X5 scanner - something I have lusted after for a few years. The Imacon boys have it down pat these days to a one button operation. I have been doing some research into the Hasselblad 3F file thing they have going in conjunction with the scanner - very interesting.