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Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

Steve Hendrix

Active member
I'm afraid I don't agree with that Doug. The great thing about Phase1 is they allow you to stay current at a reasonable price once your in the game.

With an upgrade cycle of 2-3 years if you were to skip a cycle the chances of a failure increase dramatically. Factoring the cost of one failure into the mix the upgrade amortized over that cycle is insignificant.

Of course if the MF gear is not your primary producer of income that changes the circumstances entirely.

I think upgrading is a very hard process to pin down. Obviously!

There is something to the upgrade process as a financial consideration and investment protection decision. Example: Sometimes, there's a very aggressive upgrade price on a new product from your current model. If your model is more than 1 generation back, this could be a very temporary situation and the advantage may be soon lost (forever).

So, some real thought has to go into are you someone who has a product that does exactly what you need it to (as opposed to what you might want it to) and pre-determine that you are typically going to run with that product for 5, 6 , 7 years? (very common with digital back users)

Or are you someone who "likes to stay current" or someone whose photographic workflow and needs change more frequently? Or are you someone who is capable of completely losing your head and getting very juiced over a sexy new product? Probably the majority of this group here...:D

In any case, it pays to keep an eye on the offers. But here's a couple examples of how someone might miss out if they're a more regular upgrader:

In 2009, if you owned a Leaf Aptus 75 or a Sinar 75 (both valued at about $8K - $10K end user to end user street), you could receive $20,000 credit towards a P65+. I don't have firm upgrade values today on this same configuration, but my sense is that it will wind up around half that. And while the P65+ pricing has been reduced, it still will likely cost a good $4K - $6 more for the same transaction.

At the same time, a P45+ was worth $25,000 in trade value towards a P65+ (net $14,990). Today, the net is $18,144.

So sometimes, especially when products have been out more than a couple years, there are critical junctures where they shift from a great deal to a so-so deal.

Newer products upgraded from still current or last generation products are usually pretty stable in terms of the pricing from launch forward a good while (especially with Phase One). But if you're holding a product that is more than one generation back, it is good to be alert for the right timing.


Steve Hendrix
 

Terry

New member
Or are you someone who is capable of completely losing your head and getting very juiced over a sexy new product? Probably the majority of this group here...:D
Well, I picked out this quote because it is so good. However the whole post is very good.

On the upgrades what is so hard is just what you talk about, determining "is this THE right time to upgrade or should I wait to see what the next round of deals will bring.

Do I need an IQ180 - no!!!! But given the current upgrade deal it seems better to move to the IQ180 over the IQ160.
 

Steve Hendrix

Active member
Well, I picked out this quote because it is so good. However the whole post is very good.

On the upgrades what is so hard is just what you talk about, determining "is this THE right time to upgrade or should I wait to see what the next round of deals will bring.

Do I need an IQ180 - no!!!! But given the current upgrade deal it seems better to move to the IQ180 over the IQ160.

You're right, knowing the right time remains elusive.

From our standpoint, maintaining pricing policy records that go back years on these products and having a sense of how they historically ebb and flow is helpful, but we still aren't always able to anticipate every left turn that is made.

But usually, we can tell when they've taken a particularly aggressive stance. It doesn't always mean it is the very best deal that you'll wind up making, but it usually is or is at least close to it.

We can also tell what part of the year or at what stage of the product life cycle they're more likely to be aggressive. Sometimes this is dictated by a competitive product as well as an upcoming new product of their own.

At any rate, Dante was on to something.



Steve Hendrix
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Phase One's upgrade policy is much more rational and transparent than other makers I can think of - these new backs have me very tempted to switch back (sic) to Phase One.

I am looking forward to hearing how the IQ80 works on a tech camera!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Peter , Terry is lending us her Arca for our tests with the IQ 180. You maybe in trouble here. I got a feeling it is going to scream on her Arca. I'm very afraid to even test this thing out . My wife is absolutely going to hire a hit man on me. LOL
 
Peter A:

We will also be testing the IQ 180 with the Arca Swiss , Cambo, and Alpa cameras at the first Capture Integration event in Atlanta Feb 8-9, 2011.

Capture Integration is scheduling an event just like the one in Atlanta, except for all the Phase One folks, at our location in Miami where we will have a full day of hands on with customers. Then a social event that evening with Live Fashion Shoots on March 2. This will be followed by a day of "Serious Technical Training" on March 3, 2011. I will be attending both events.

If you or anyone else has not seen our new series, watch for a city near you. We expect to take this new "Serious Technical Training" across the US with visits to 12 different cities. This new workshop series will allow you to get the latest information on Capture One 6, Ipad Tethering, Technical View Cameras and Optics, Flash Duration, and of course learn more about all the new Phase One IQ camera backs. We are just finalizing the dates and schedule. Check our website for update under our "events page"
http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/upcoming-events/.


Chris Snipes (e-mail Me)
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Sales Manager
2010 Phase One Partner of the Year
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Phase One's upgrade policy is much more rational and transparent than other makers I can think of - these new backs have me very tempted to switch back (sic) to Phase One.

I am looking forward to hearing how the IQ80 works on a tech camera!
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Peter , Terry is lending us her Arca for our tests with the IQ 180. You maybe in trouble here. I got a feeling it is going to scream on her Arca. I'm very afraid to even test this thing out . My wife is absolutely going to hire a hit man on me. LOL
Thanks and I really look forward to your testing Guy (and thanks to Terry for lending you her Arca )- now get a real camera - the Alpa to round out teh comparisons:ROTFL::ROTFL:

I know the guys at CI are going to test the back on Arca and Alpa and I look forward to these as well.

These new Phase backs are potentially a game changer for tech camera users - and yes I will be seriously looking at Phase One :cry:

I can feel my Bank balance shrinking fast.
 

Steve Hendrix

Active member
*UPDATE*


Well, at least one important issue came out positively from this morning.


Through yesterday, the upgrade policy towards Phase One IQ Series digital backs was as follows in terms of percent discount:

*Phase One Plus Backs: The naming designation of the back (P45+ means 45% discount, even though the megapixel is only 39). On the other hand, P30+ owners only get 30%, although the megapixel count is actually 31 (we'll make up the difference, don't worry). The P30 is the only product that goes in the opposite direction {by 1%}.

*Competitive Trade-Ins: The megapixel count determines the discount. So, a Hasselblad 39MP anything (CF-39, H3D-39, etc, counts for 39%).

*Phase One non-Plus Backs: Prior to this morning Phase One non-Plus units had no megapixel or naming trade designation, and were assigned the same trade-in value as the newer generation, but entry level P20+. So, a P45 non-Plus, even though it was 39 megapixels, only generated a 20% discount. We complained about this. One obvious example - someone trading in a 1st generation H3D-39 could receive twice the discount as someone trading in a P45 non-Plus and both products originate from the same generation and are the same megapixel count. Not good.


So, this morning Phase One has reversed course and agreed that all non-Plus Phase One products will now be considered eligible for the same discount as Phase One Plus products. The policy will be consistent, that regardless of Plus or non-Plus, the numerical naming itself on a Phase One product will dictate the discount.

There has still not been any change of policy on crossgrades. Historically, Phase One has never had a crossgrade policy, so this remains an issue. However, from our standpoint, Capture Integration is not strictly bound by 3rd party pricing policies (meaning we can create our own workarounds), and in this case we can accept crossgrade trade-ins, but will have to handle this creatively on a case by case basis, which we frequently do anyway. So, for anyone interested in this path, please feel free to contact us and we can look at your situation, what you wish to do, and create an arrangement that is fair.


Steve Hendrix
 

Dan Santoso

New member
no IQ back for me then

15,000 upgrade does not worth a new LCD. I also do not need 80mp. 60mp is plenty for anything. Even billboard uses 10-50 dpi.

My back is 7 months old and now I have to pay 15,000 more for new long due LCD. Life isnt fair haha.
 
Steve, thanks a lot for the update. Nonetheless it would be cool if there was a path for Aptus 12 owners who want an IQ180. Since there's no IQ200, it is impossible to upgrade to an IQ series back in any form.

Downgrading is not possible, crossgrading is not possible, so one is stuck with that back.

On the other hand, Owners of an Aptus 10 can upgrade for a 56% reduction in price.

I really want the fast previews, the high-res screen and the weather sealing features, sind that way I can leave a laptop at home.

So this means Aptus 12 owners have no options to migrate, even though it's the same company?

Thanks

Paul
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Love to have a Alpa too. LOL
If I wasn't in Europe at the moment I'd have been happy to grant your wish :p

That said, anything you find with the Arca would absolutely apply to the Alpa. Just so long as you calibrate the back & back plate (or lens with the Arca I suppose). :toocool:
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
*UPDATE*


....There has still not been any change of policy on crossgrades. Historically, Phase One has never had a crossgrade policy, so this remains an issue.
Historically (as much as my middle-aged mind can recall) there really wasn't much of a reason to cross-grade change---or lateral upgrade. The jump from a P30 to P30+ or P45 to P45+, though "nice" wasn't exactly a stellar generational improvement. Some spit-shine polishing going to the P+ series, but really nothing earth shaking.

I see the IQ series of MFDBs to be a major change in the playing field---not in resolution, but in usability. It offers the features that many have been clamoring for for quite some time. So "historically" there may not have been a crossgrade/lateral upgrade policy----because really there never was much need for one before. I think the IQ MFDB series changes things. We're at the point where in many respects that little boost in MP/resolution isn't the panacea that it once was. I have no desire to go from 60MP to 80MP. But I sure would like (hey Guy---like/need/want----it's all the same! Running shoes will help you more than that baseball helmet :ROTFL: ) an IQ160 rather than the IQ180----but at an attractive lateral price (still profitable to Phase) yet not at the premium of upping the MP to a higher back.

I know that this is an issue/policy that needs to come from the higher ups at Phase, but in the meantime want to remain confident in Capture Integration offering that bridge. The details is all part of why I choose CI to be my MFDB dealer. I hope CI can come up with something attractive to those interested only in a lateral/crossgrade.

ken
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Totally agree Ken on airplane ready to take off but the IQ is a game changer in functions and I want it. Going up is not needed but would be nice no doubt but the game changed and we need these crossovers now. Phase made these tech changes a big plus . So they need to change the game plan on this. I am strongly behind this effort.
 
Historically (as much as my middle-aged mind can recall) there really wasn't much of a reason to cross-grade change---or lateral upgrade. The jump from a P30 to P30+ or P45 to P45+, though "nice" wasn't exactly a stellar generational improvement. Some spit-shine polishing going to the P+ series, but really nothing earth shaking.
Ken, this is a really valid argument. I didn't realize that but it's true. I once owned a p30 and it never once came to my mind to upgrade to a p30+. I think the only difference was a better screen and one more stop of high iso ... but not worth paying a lot of money for ...

@Steve, maybe this is an argument you guys could bring to the higher-ups' attention? Maybe during your sweet launching party?

There indeed IS now a good reason for a p40+ user to upgrade to a new IQ140 - the changes are quite dramatic. Especially for tech camera users.

Regards

Paul
 

Steve Hendrix

Active member
Ken, this is a really valid argument. I didn't realize that but it's true. I once owned a p30 and it never once came to my mind to upgrade to a p30+. I think the only difference was a better screen and one more stop of high iso ... but not worth paying a lot of money for ...

@Steve, maybe this is an argument you guys could bring to the higher-ups' attention? Maybe during your sweet launching party?

There indeed IS now a good reason for a p40+ user to upgrade to a new IQ140 - the changes are quite dramatic. Especially for tech camera users.

Regards

Paul

I absolutely agree with the point Ken made. The IQ Series presents a different equation for crossgraders than in the past. We'll present this very valid perspective and maybe pilfer some passports at our launch on the 8th until we get our way!

In the meantime, we will certainly be able to offer fair pricing to accommodate any crossgraders. We won't be able to publish a pricing list due to the way too many varied situations we'll be involved in to provide the crossgrade, but anyone can contact us by phone or email with their situation and we'll come up with a fair price.


Steve Hendrix
 

SergeiR

New member
..afterthought.. i think we are about to see some serious surge in purchases of lottery tickets ... They really should get share in P1... ;)
 

Paul David

Member
Steve,

I agree 100% with Ken. I've been asking for an iPhone tether to get the functionality that is now in the new back, although they have gone somewhat better with the focus mask. I'm totally happy with the IQ from my P65+. As I often use an Alpa technical camera, going from a near useless display to iPhone+ quality and functionality would be really nice. But there won't be any noticeable difference in IQ between the 60 and 80 MP backs. And it's hard to justify $14k for adding an iPhone to my P65+. Especially since it's not that long ago I paid a similar amount to upgrade from the P45+.

Hopefully P1 will understand this an have a reasonable lateral option.

Paul




I absolutely agree with the point Ken made. The IQ Series presents a different equation for crossgraders than in the past. We'll present this very valid perspective and maybe pilfer some passports at our launch on the 8th until we get our way!

In the meantime, we will certainly be able to offer fair pricing to accommodate any crossgraders. We won't be able to publish a pricing list due to the way too many varied situations we'll be involved in to provide the crossgrade, but anyone can contact us by phone or email with their situation and we'll come up with a fair price.


Steve Hendrix
 

gsking

New member
Hmm, guess my H10 just gained value as a "coupon". Kinda like "Cash for Clunkers"...or "Bucks for Backs" in this case.

11% discount, or up to $4500 off? Hmm, I may have to part with it. ;)
 
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