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Super Tele lenses for digital medium format recommendation

D&A

Well-known member
Ed's comments truly has considerable merrit when he mentioned that there was something beyond tripod stability, that makes it difficult to achieve a sharp shot with the Pentax 600mm f5.6 645 lens. Personally I've tried various mounting setups with the lens including a Wimberely Gimbal mount and although the latter worked out best for me, none seemed to be ideal. I may be wrong but I've come to a preliminary conclusion that it may have something to do with the barrel construction that for some reason vibrates or resonates in conjunction with the 645 body upon firing the shutter (even with mirror up), along with use of very fast shutter speeds. I too would think long and hard if one wants to go this route. The much smaller and lighter 300 and 400mm Pentax 645 lenses do much better in this regard as well as the Pentax 400mm 67 lens.

With regards to Jack's comments, I couldn't agree more. A full frame high resolution body such as the D850 etc. with one of Nikon's/Canon's or other high performance full frame system along with one of their long telephoto's, yields far more keepers than use of longer telephoto's with the Pentax 645 system (and I suppose other medium format systems).

Dave (D&A)
 

algrove

Well-known member
I have used the Mamiya 500 645 lens and it seemed excellent on my IQ3100 and XF. I have its adapter for the GFX but mainly use smaller Mamiya lenses like the 300/5.6 due to is smaller size. Used the RRS long lens support on the 500 which worked beautifully. I also have a Leica R Telyt 400 f6.8 with original gun stock.
 
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sog1927

Member
I noticed mentions of the Hasselblad 350mm lenses, but nobody seems to have mentioned the 500mm ApoTessar CF (not the original 500).
 

anyone

Well-known member
I noticed mentions of the Hasselblad 350mm lenses, but nobody seems to have mentioned the 500mm ApoTessar CF (not the original 500).
In the forums, this lens is often described as inferior. I haven‘t used it by myself, do you have any first hand experience?
 

buildbot

Well-known member
Well, I never got a chance to actually go outside to test the 500mm, as it's been nonstop rain here in Seattle. I did manage to get one slightly terrible photo inside, my Condo is literally the exact minimum focal length for this lens, and I didn't spend a whole lot of time making the book sit flat. The XF was up against my patio door, and the book placed at my front door:
tele10.jpg

This was a 4 second exposure, F5.6, ISO 200.

Full disclosure I've yet to use this lens in the field because it looks insane to carry around, the 300mm F4.5 APO already draws a lot of attention when mounted on the already large XF. I know it's shorter than what you are probably looking for, but I do love the 300mm F4.5 APO, it's much lighter and more compact, and in my eyes way sharper. Some recent shots I took with it:
tele06.jpgtele07.jpgtele08.jpgtele09.jpg

Edit/PS:
The mount for the Mamiya 500mm lens is surprisingly lightweight/really scary! It's made of aluminum and plastics and held on by three tiny screws only:
tele11.jpgtele12.jpg
 
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jng

Well-known member
This is an interesting thread. I agree with Jack's comments that if one is looking for long reach with autofocus, image stabilization, etc. for any subject that actually moves, medium format is the wrong platform. However some of us - including myself - are looking at the longer focal length lenses for reach and/or compression for landscape/cityscape compositions (i.e., no moving subjects, locked down on a tripod) while retaining the benefits of the larger format. As pointed out here and in other past threads on the subject, options are limited beyond a certain focal length.

Looking at the pictures of the 645Z hanging off of the Pentax 600mm, I am not surprised that people have encountered vibration issues with this setup. I also imagine that a more stable platform might be found e.g. on a Cube sitting directly on a beefy carbon fiber tripod apex than on a ball head sitting on top of a center column, even fully retracted, but still that's a lot of camera dangling off of a lot of lens. Presumably issues with shutter vibration would be mitigated with the smaller Fuji or Hasselblad X bodies using electronic shutter.

A friend of mine, who is an avid bird photographer but whom I've managed to introduce to the wonders of medium format for cityscapes and macros (you're welcome, Dante), recently picked up a Nikkor 600/4 lens for BIF (I think it's the penultimate VR version). Even used it wasn't cheap and ~2-3x the OP's originally stated price range. It gives spectacular results on the Fuji 50R, although requires cropping ~square to remove the effects of vignetting at the corners so perhaps not what the OP is looking for in terms of cost as well as usability across the entire 33x44mm sensor. And it's a beast, requiring its own Pelican case for transport.

From all that I've read on the various forums and in talking to others, it seems that the Pentax medium format telephotos give the best bang for the buck, at least at the moderate telephoto focal lengths up to 300~400mm without teleconverters. In terms of the older Hasselblad V system lenses, in my experience the less expensive lenses are not up to the task when using today's high resolution sensors. MTF charts for the lineup can be found at Hasselblad Historical: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx. YMMV in real life, of course. The 350/5.6 CF (which I owned) is literally not the sharpest tool in the shed and also suffers from significant longitudinal chromatic aberration. According to the MTF charts, the 350/4 FE appears to perform a bit better but nowhere near the Superachromats; ditto for the 500/8 Tele-ApoTessar (disclaimer: I have used neither).

This brings me to the 250mm and 350mm Superachromats, which admittedly are pricey as well as rare (especially the 350), and also limited in reach. But the results can be amazing on a full size 40 x 54mm 100 Mp sensor and I have no doubt the same can be said at 150 Mp. To offset the lightening of the wallet, these lenses are actually quite compact, albeit pretty heavy. Below is a photo of my 250 Superachromat, 350 Tele-Superachromat, and APO 1.4XE teleconverter all packed neatly in an f-stop small ICU. It sits on top of a medium slope ICU stuffed into an f-stop Loka backpack. If I know I won't be needing the reach, I can simply leave this part of the kit at home. So, that's 250, 350 and 490mm in packed into one compact package. There's no discernible degradation in image quality when using the 350 with the dedicated APO 1.4XE converter (the regular 1.4XE also gives good results, albeit with a touch of CA at the edges, easily correctable in post). In a pinch I can pack my 2x teleconverter for 700mm but with some loss in image quality (it's actually not bad). In terms of stability, using the electronic shutter I have found that I can hang my Cambo off the end of the the 350 + 1.4x converter and still manage to get sharp images with exposures ranging into the tens of seconds (I have not tried using the leaf shutters, so can't comment on whether they would cause vibration-induced artifacts). I've also set up the entire contraption to sit on a RRS long lens rail to minimize flex/sag at the various couplings but am not yet 100% convinced this is necessary. The rig also works quite well with my Hasselblad X1D. I'm attaching some pictures here for reference.

I doubt this long-winded post is at all useful to the OP given his stated use case but thought it might be amusing to those who enjoy going down these rabbit holes. 🤪

John

1.SA kit.jpg2.350+APO1.4XE+Cambo.jpg3.350+APO1.4XE+Cambo+RRS_rail.jpg
 

John_McMaster

Active member
I also imagine that a more stable platform might be found e.g. on a Cube sitting directly on a beefy carbon fiber tripod apex than on a ball head sitting on top of a center column, even fully retracted, but still that's a lot of camera dangling off of a lot of lens. Presumably issues with shutter vibration would be mitigated with the smaller Fuji or Hasselblad X bodies using electronic shutter.
I find my Cube (on CF apex) not very stable when there is leverage on it, admittedly I am using a heavier camera (S(007) with multigrip).

john
 

beano_z

Active member
......but I do love the 300mm F4.5 APO, it's much lighter and more compact, and in my eyes way sharper.
I second that, the 300/4.5 is a stellar lens, not to mention the price and weight. it's always in my bag when I travel and am uncertain of the possible photography opportunities. I find that shooting landscapes I actually use this lens more than my super-wide.

The performance at f/8 ~ f/11 is so good that I traded in my Hassy SA 350/5.6 which was way too heavy and needed an extra adapter for the XF. Maybe I had a bad copy of the 350, but my Mamiya was sharper on the IQ3 100mp at f/11. The smaller standard filter thread also makes using filters a breeze.

I'd like to see its performance with the 2x teleconverter, but I haven't had the guts to buy one of those yet after having been discouraged by quite a few people. ButI still think it could be usable with proper support for landscape in a pinch, but not for BIF obviously.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Threads like this make me wish I'd taken a photo of my ALPA FPS and IQ3 100 mounted on the Jonel 200 (that's 200 *inches*, not mm) 🤣
 

algrove

Well-known member
I second that, the 300/4.5 is a stellar lens, not to mention the price and weight. it's always in my bag when I travel and am uncertain of the possible photography opportunities. I find that shooting landscapes I actually use this lens more than my super-wide.

The performance at f/8 ~ f/11 is so good that I traded in my Hassy SA 350/5.6 which was way too heavy and needed an extra adapter for the XF. Maybe I had a bad copy of the 350, but my Mamiya was sharper on the IQ3 100mp at f/11. The smaller standard filter thread also makes using filters a breeze.

I'd like to see its performance with the 2x teleconverter, but I haven't had the guts to buy one of those yet after having been discouraged by quite a few people. ButI still think it could be usable with proper support for landscape in a pinch, but not for BIF obviously.
I have a 2X and it was not expensive. Put it on my 500 once just to experience the reach at 1000mm. I now use my 645 Mamiyas on my 50R including the 24 fisheye. Based on an old Mamiya article I thought the MF 300/5.6 was the best MF 300, and the AF 300/4.5 best for XF work. I sold my XF long ago but kept the AF300/4.5+AF210/4 +AF105-210/4.5.
 
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FloatingLens

Well-known member
This is an interesting thread. I agree with Jack's comments that if one is looking for long reach with autofocus, image stabilization, etc. for any subject that actually moves, medium format is the wrong platform. However some of us - including myself - are looking at the longer focal length lenses for reach and/or compression for landscape/cityscape compositions (i.e., no moving subjects, locked down on a tripod) while retaining the benefits of the larger format. As pointed out here and in other past threads on the subject, options are limited beyond a certain focal length.

Looking at the pictures of the 645Z hanging off of the Pentax 600mm, I am not surprised that people have encountered vibration issues with this setup. I also imagine that a more stable platform might be found e.g. on a Cube sitting directly on a beefy carbon fiber tripod apex than on a ball head sitting on top of a center column, even fully retracted, but still that's a lot of camera dangling off of a lot of lens. Presumably issues with shutter vibration would be mitigated with the smaller Fuji or Hasselblad X bodies using electronic shutter.

A friend of mine, who is an avid bird photographer but whom I've managed to introduce to the wonders of medium format for cityscapes and macros (you're welcome, Dante), recently picked up a Nikkor 600/4 lens for BIF (I think it's the penultimate VR version). Even used it wasn't cheap and ~2-3x the OP's originally stated price range. It gives spectacular results on the Fuji 50R, although requires cropping ~square to remove the effects of vignetting at the corners so perhaps not what the OP is looking for in terms of cost as well as usability across the entire 33x44mm sensor. And it's a beast, requiring its own Pelican case for transport.

From all that I've read on the various forums and in talking to others, it seems that the Pentax medium format telephotos give the best bang for the buck, at least at the moderate telephoto focal lengths up to 300~400mm without teleconverters. In terms of the older Hasselblad V system lenses, in my experience the less expensive lenses are not up to the task when using today's high resolution sensors. MTF charts for the lineup can be found at Hasselblad Historical: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx. YMMV in real life, of course. The 350/5.6 CF (which I owned) is literally not the sharpest tool in the shed and also suffers from significant longitudinal chromatic aberration. According to the MTF charts, the 350/4 FE appears to perform a bit better but nowhere near the Superachromats; ditto for the 500/8 Tele-ApoTessar (disclaimer: I have used neither).

This brings me to the 250mm and 350mm Superachromats, which admittedly are pricey as well as rare (especially the 350), and also limited in reach. But the results can be amazing on a full size 40 x 54mm 100 Mp sensor and I have no doubt the same can be said at 150 Mp. To offset the lightening of the wallet, these lenses are actually quite compact, albeit pretty heavy. Below is a photo of my 250 Superachromat, 350 Tele-Superachromat, and APO 1.4XE teleconverter all packed neatly in an f-stop small ICU. It sits on top of a medium slope ICU stuffed into an f-stop Loka backpack. If I know I won't be needing the reach, I can simply leave this part of the kit at home. So, that's 250, 350 and 490mm in packed into one compact package. There's no discernible degradation in image quality when using the 350 with the dedicated APO 1.4XE converter (the regular 1.4XE also gives good results, albeit with a touch of CA at the edges, easily correctable in post). In a pinch I can pack my 2x teleconverter for 700mm but with some loss in image quality (it's actually not bad). In terms of stability, using the electronic shutter I have found that I can hang my Cambo off the end of the the 350 + 1.4x converter and still manage to get sharp images with exposures ranging into the tens of seconds (I have not tried using the leaf shutters, so can't comment on whether they would cause vibration-induced artifacts). I've also set up the entire contraption to sit on a RRS long lens rail to minimize flex/sag at the various couplings but am not yet 100% convinced this is necessary. The rig also works quite well with my Hasselblad X1D. I'm attaching some pictures here for reference.

I doubt this long-winded post is at all useful to the OP given his stated use case but thought it might be amusing to those who enjoy going down these rabbit holes. 🤪

John

View attachment 180655View attachment 180656View attachment 180657
Now I want such an ICU, too. 😆 With contents, of course! That‘s some serious tele glass right there. Awesome stuff!
 

buildbot

Well-known member
Man that 350mm Superachromat is just a pretty lens to look at too.

Another potential lens just popped into my head, though it does seem like OP already has a good pic with the Pentax: The Rollei 300mm PQ Lens for the 6008 series. Runs about 1500$ on ebay it looks like, I've heard it's good performer as well. Though stopping it down on not a Rollei body might be impossible/tricky.
 

anyone

Well-known member
The 350/5.6 CF (which I owned) is literally not the sharpest tool in the shed and also suffers from significant longitudinal chromatic aberration.
My copy was performing quite nicely on my P45+ IMHO. The additional tripod support was really required though. Attached there is a 100% crop, settings "unsharpened" from C1 on a P45+.

crop.jpg
 

jng

Well-known member
Man that 350mm Superachromat is just a pretty lens to look at too.
Yes and it’s a delight to use as well. The focusing helical is silky smooth (characteristic of the CFE lenses) which makes focusing a breeze, and the lens+body balances beautifully on the low profile tripod foot.

My copy was performing quite nicely on my P45+ IMHO. The additional tripod support was really required though. Attached there is a 100% crop, settings "unsharpened" from C1 on a P45+.
Indeed, I did manage to make some nice images with the CF350, including one that’s hanging on the wall. It’s certainly easy to become obsessed with sharpness, CA, etc., but the reality is that other factors such as wind/vibration and atmospheric effects like heat convection, dust/smog, etc. can play a much bigger role in affecting image quality when shooting distant land/cityscapes.

I also used a rail for support as the lens itself lacks a built-in tripod foot and it’s just too front-heavy to hang off the body’s lens mount without the extra support.

Taken with XF/Phase IQ100 Achromatic/Mamiya 300/4.5 and cropped A LOT-like over 50%. Learned about this lens from Graham Welland. Thanks.
Beautiful! The Mamiya 300/4.5 looks like a great lens as well!

John
 

anyone

Well-known member
I also used a rail for support as the lens itself lacks a built-in tripod foot and it’s just too front-heavy to hang off the body’s lens mount without the extra support.
I used a third party tripod foot which is available on Amazon which was a tremendous improvement, and I also used a rail (similar to the setup we both use nowadays with the Superachromat).
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Sure! Im not in rush and happy to see some samples
Hi
Im a GFX100 user and Im quite happy with a sigma 150-600 for canon (+kipon adapter)
but of course, because of the vignette, i have to trash a good portion of the image
so I was thinking to upgrade to a 645/67 lens

I was looking at the Pentax 645 600mm f/5.6 lens (I'm not sure if this lens was meant for film or digital)
and was wondering if anyone has experience with it on digital?

what other lenses are worth considering? without exceeding the $2-3k mark?

thanks
For the GFX system I use the native 250mm & TC when needed. I was able to shoot on safari easily with this combination (GFX50S before I got my GFX100 with extra IBIS).

Attached are a few images straight from C1 and shot using a monopod from the back of a Land Rover. Reducing the resolution for jpg tends to exaggerate some of the sharpness (i.e. I didn’t over sharpen the original files).
 

Attachments

fotophil

Member
In support of the M645 film format Mamiya made a 500mm f/4.5 APO telelens that is quite useful wide open but it is a brute. It is a white lens along with its 300mm f/2.8 APO and 200mm f/2.8 APO cousins. Good manual focus lenses that sometimes are reasonably priced.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
There are always solutions. If the birds are too small in your image, find bigger birds...

Or, figure out the skills you need. This is not purely a technical issue. This is with a Pentax 645D, Pentax 300mm f/5.6, and 1.4X teleconverter. But the secret was being able to get close enough.



Note, I think the Pentax 300mm f/4 is a superior lens. The f/5.6 version is much smaller. Given I use this focal length rarely, this version seemed a better alternative--I would not carry the heavier f/4 version.
 
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