Tariffs and the future of MFD

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the psychology is the biggest problem, but in reality the outlook is also based in real uncertainties, ie it is more tricky financially with the current state of the world.

It is the worst possible scenario to launch a 50k digital back in this environment of expected inflation and uncertain income potential.

Let's hope it all brightens up soon enough.

 

[georgecleansman]

I think that the business model for extremely expensive digital backs like Phase One will erode in the future. Most professional photographers are finding it increasingly difficult to refinance such an investment due to declining orders. Sony has been anticipating this development for some time by developing the new 250MP chip with a 2:3 format for industrial applications. Now customs duties are being added to the mix. And the uncertainty of the global economy. Phase One would be better off continuing to use the previous 150MP and bringing their back up to the current technical standard.

 

[anyone]

A little off topic here, but it would be awesome if they’d re-introduce different mounts. An IQ4 150 in Hasselblad V mount would be nice.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

A little off topic here, but it would be awesome if they’d re-introduce different mounts. An IQ4 150 in Hasselblad V mount would be nice.

Good idea - the market has shifted in Hassy's favour and they might as well capture a bit back of the V back market

 

[f8orbust]

A little off topic here, but it would be awesome if they’d re-introduce different mounts. An IQ4 150 in Hasselblad V mount would be nice.

Buy $10m worth of TrumpCoin and I'm sure Donald will sign an executive order commanding P1 to do just that (in the 'national interest' of course). He said, jokingly. Or not.

 

[SrMphoto]

A little off topic here, but it would be awesome if they’d re-introduce different mounts. An IQ4 150 in Hasselblad V mount would be nice.

What would be an advantage of having IQ4 in V mount? Most technical cameras have IQ4 and Hasselblad adapters available, and using a back on Hasselblad's film cameras is an even more niche market than the technical cameras.

 

[vieri]

I think that the business model for extremely expensive digital backs like Phase One will erode in the future. Most professional photographers are finding it increasingly difficult to refinance such an investment due to declining orders. Sony has been anticipating this development for some time by developing the new 250MP chip with a 2:3 format for industrial applications. Now customs duties are being added to the mix. And the uncertainty of the global economy. Phase One would be better off continuing to use the previous 150MP and bringing their back up to the current technical standard.

Hey George,

I love Phase One, I find Frame Averaging to be an incredibly liberating creative tool, the Achromatic would be reason enough for me to use Phase One, the movements of course (I use either rise or tilt or both pretty much on all my photographs) not to forget the ability to use ultra-wide Rodenstocks such as the 23mm and 32mm.

But I agree with you, I can see that there are only a few professionals that really need Phase One and I think that more than refinancing the investment due to declining orders, a more compelling reason to look elsewhere is the dramatic improvement of digital MF in terms of image quality and resolution vs cost. Which, in turn, forces professionals to think long and hard about why they need to spend 50k on a digital back rather than 5k for a GFX 100s II or 7.5k for a GFX 100 II.

One can argue that 100mp are more than enough for pretty much any application, plus the next generation MF will have more than current generation P1 backs; that the new H and Fuji lenses are extremely good, at a quarter to half the cost of equivalent Rodenstocks; that if you need movements, you have the CFV-100c and can also use a GFX as a digital back with Arca-Swiss cameras (Universalis, M-Two); and that for everything handheld and with no movements the technology in the new Fuji and H cameras is years ahead than P1.

That said, I am happy with my IQ4 Achromatic and surely hope Phase One will navigate this trying times and come out on the other side strong, both financially and especially with new products that keep pushing the limits of what image quality can be.

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[anyone]

What would be an advantage of having IQ4 in V mount? Most technical cameras have IQ4 and Hasselblad adapters available, and using a back on Hasselblad's film cameras is an even more niche market than the technical cameras.

It’s true that it is a niche, but I am a long-term Hasselblad V user and like to have the option to use the back on my film Hasselblad bodies. I also use the V-mount on my technical cameras, and I use a Hasselblad ground glass on my Cambo WRS. By having the V mount, I can use it for composing and focus.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

In the end it is about the product too. I can imagine if it really is a tour de force technologically that it reinvigorates the category, but res alone, especially with 3:2, will be tricky. Wonder what they come up with on the tech side ...

 

[georgecleansman]

I love Phase One, I find Frame Averaging to be an incredibly liberating creative tool

Dear Vieri,

Buying a camera is never just a rational decision, but one that is linked to passion and emotion. In this respect, all photographers should be happy if they own a Phase One system.

As fascinating as I find frame averaging, I think that the application of this sophisticated feature was conceived in particular to reduce noise in the image and increase the dynamic range.

I am an amateur photographer who likes to shoot landscapes. With frame averaging, you usually end up with a completely smooth water surface and sky. This results in atmospheric images. From my humble amateur point of view, however, I personally don't think I would want this effect on every picture.

What I find more interesting is the Dual Exposure feature with two shutter releases of different exposure times in quick succession.

Have fun taking pictures!

 

[cunim]

@georgecleansman I think the point you make about better use of the IQ4 is valid. I love mine and have never felt the need for a higher res chip - which comes with significant disadvantages. The IQ4 does have severe limitations, most of which are imposed by communications and interface weaknesses. For example, I imagine focusing using C1 mobile on an Apple VR headset via fast wifi. Ooooh. As to whether or not there is a market for such expensive toys, of course there is. It depends what the toys do and the current IQ4 is falling behind in the do neat stuff category., That's where P1 should invest development.

Nothing to do with tariffs though.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Nevertheless, it’s an open book as to how P1 finally decide to implement the increase. Once a decision is made, the dealers should be the first to know.
@Steve Hendrix - where are you?

I'm not sure how Phase One's response can be viewed as "an open book". We received a copy of the same letter. They openly stated that a 3% fee would be added to orders (and that implied they would absorb 7% of the tariff). That seems pretty clear. I found it interesting that they directly addressed end users and not just dealers. We are under no obligation to add 3% to the out the door price of any new Phase One product that is purchased from us (though our cost is 3% higher). In any event, from our standpoint, I'm sure we can handle this on a case by case basis, and any dealer should have the same discretion.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[vieri]

Dear Vieri,

Buying a camera is never just a rational decision, but one that is linked to passion and emotion. In this respect, all photographers should be happy if they own a Phase One system.

As fascinating as I find frame averaging, I think that the application of this sophisticated feature was conceived in particular to reduce noise in the image and increase the dynamic range.

I am an amateur photographer who likes to shoot landscapes. With frame averaging, you usually end up with a completely smooth water surface and sky. This results in atmospheric images. From my humble amateur point of view, however, I personally don't think I would want this effect on every picture.

What I find more interesting is the Dual Exposure feature with two shutter releases of different exposure times in quick succession.

Have fun taking pictures!

Hello George,

well, frame averaging doesn't mean you necessarily need to go for very long exposures all the time - in fact, for me it's exactly the opposite, what I find creatively liberating is the ability to vary my exposure at will without the need for ND filters. I often use the feature to go from fast enough speeds, e.g. 1/125 sec, to 1 sec / 5 sec / 30 sec / and longer, if need be. This is very useful to fine tune your shutter speed to turn flowing water into looking in so many different ways (one of which is, for sure, the silky smooth one - but not the only one):




Turning 1/60 sec into 20 seconds, or 4 minutes. Very different results, very different moods - available at the click of a finger not sure whether FA was developed to solve technical problems such as noise reduction or increasing DR - I wouldn't think so personally, and even if it was I'd find the creative opportunities it opens to be much, much more interesting than the strictly technical ones, personally.

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[Alkibiades]

I think that the business model for extremely expensive digital backs like Phase One will erode in the future. Most professional photographers are finding it increasingly difficult to refinance such an investment due to declining orders. Sony has been anticipating this development for some time by developing the new 250MP chip with a 2:3 format for industrial applications. Now customs duties are being added to the mix. And the uncertainty of the global economy. Phase One would be better off continuing to use the previous 150MP and bringing their back up to the current technical standard.

I totally agree.
Leica was always a premium camera and lensmaker for people who dont care about prices.
If you go with Leica it was always clear that this will be very expensive, so i dont think that any tariffs will really hurt the Leica market.
So I think the tariffs will more a big problem to fuji-hasselblad users who have a strong limited financial possibilities and need a tool for work or hobby.
They will stay away from consuming or getting used stuff that will be offered for very low prices now.
Phase one is a completely different story.
They simply ignore the big change in the whole MFD world that happened already few years ago.
The MFD users loved phase one back becouse of their backs were the best tools for use them on technical cameras.
Here and only here phase one was very special.
Mamiya-Phase one has never the best or good working AF. They has never very special or very fast lenses.
Their backs only were special and that is what they can do very good and I dont understand why they dont continue.
Everybody who use technical cameras would like to see a new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS from sony that is the perfect sensor for this use.
Only a back- nothing more- no stupid funcions- only a simple back with this sensor. this could be a cheap back like IQ1 series, under 10 k, similar to hasselblad price - back plaese without the strips. Also a more expensive version in IQ4 stile for guys with more money would be fine. Just put this sensor into a back- that all.
This would be the most usable item Phase one could ever made.
This is what all architecture photographers would love and would buy.
As a second step Phase one will need a new camera body, mirrorless, something in Hasselblad 907x style.
Anyway no camera maker can survive with selling 10 back in year with 250 MP or more.
They have to sell also their lenses and other additional equipment to keep the production alive. You need a size to survive on the free marked.
You can make a back for 70k but very few will be interested in buying it or will be able to do it. With the 100MP sensor and a very good lens you can achieve results that cant be really beaten ( I mean it that you could see a real advantage, not only theoretically).
And dont worry about Trump: nobody knows what his brilliant plan about the tariffs really is, even Trump dont know it and I think his loves it to know, that the whole planet, the best brains, thay all are thinking and asking themselfs: what do this guy really wants? And this is funny, becouse even trump dont know it, maybe the tarriffs has a secret mathematical formular that depends on his digestion in the morning. Trump hates science, in his opinion he is the only one genius...
In germany we had a guy like this in the past, he feeled also like Trump to be the only one genial mesiah, he has also digestion problems, he hated also facts and survived some assassinations but in contrast to Trump he was not funny at all, even when his filmic copy made by Chaplin really was .

 

[mristuccia]

Regardless of what we can think about this guy, and if we filter out all background noise he is irradiating together with the real signal, Trump's tariffs have a clear goal. Well, at least two interconnected ones: 1) reduce the dependency (debt) of USA from other countries, especially from China, USA's greatest competitor in the upcoming future, 2) try to revive the local manufacturing industry. We can agree or not agree (I don't agree) about the fact that this is the right receipt, but personally I don't think he doesn't have a clear idea about what he is doing.

In Italy, my home country, some people are concerned about the potential reduction in sales of our best products: fashion and food specialities, to name two. But many, including me, are instead of the opinion that these products belong to a category, the luxury goods, which is already only sought after by wealthy enough people, to whom a price change of 10, 20, or 30 percent does not make a dent.

Now, in my opinion, it will be the same for the products from Leica and P1: there will be some minor complaints for a few days, just because it bears saying, but then nothing will change. It will be business as usual, especially if such companies are willing to absorb part of the additional costs as a gesture of caring for their customers.

I may be wrong of course. Time will tell.

 

[Doppler9000]

Fuji will suspend U.S. orders for the 100RF, 100VI, it seems.

 

[Manoli]

I'm not sure how Phase One's response can be viewed as "an open book".

It’s an ‘open book’ because the final outcome of these financial machinations are unknown. The 10% tariff is but an interim step valid for 90 days.

 

[Doppler9000]

It’s an ‘open book’ because the final outcome of these financial machinations are unknown. The 10% tariff is but an interim step valid for 90 days.

I believe ‘open book’ may have different (opposite-ish) definitions in different regions.

In the U.S., ‘open’ refers to a book that is literally open, and can be read - we all see what it says.

Where Manoli lives, it appears that ‘open’ refers to a story that lacks a conclusion - the outcome is uncertain.

 

[Manoli]

@Doppler9000
Thank you.
I should have expressed myself differently.

**off topic
As an aside,
The Oxford English Dictionary lists three distinct meanings for ‘open book’ with the first known use dating back to the mid 1600s. Apparently, there are 0.3 occurrences per million words in modern written English!
** back on topic…

 

[ThdeDude]

...

As fascinating as I find frame averaging, I think that the application of this sophisticated feature was conceived in particular to reduce noise in the image and increase the dynamic range.
...

What I find more interesting is the Dual Exposure feature with two shutter releases of different exposure times in quick succession.
..

For me, the two major features missing from the CFV-100c and from the IQ 3 are:

- two exposure (highlight, shadow) averaging, like IQ4's Dual EXP+

- long exposure averaging, like IQ4's automatic frame averaging

I wonder whether P1 ever considered to update and upgrade just the electronics of the IQ4!