Tariffs and the future of MFD

[Steve Hendrix]

@Doppler9000
Thank you.
I should have expressed myself differently.

**off topic
As an aside,
The Oxford English Dictionary lists three distinct meanings for ‘open book’ with the first known use dating back to the mid 1600s. Apparently, there are 0.3 occurrences per million words in modern written English!
** back on topic…

Hi Manoli -

I just wanted to clarify, not the definition of "open book", I understood your meaning there, just that the way it was worded, produced the impression in me that the open book was on the part of Phase One, but with your ensuing explanation, you're correct, it depends on the US policy going forward (presumably past 90 days). From that standpoint, all manufacturers are also open book.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[cunim]

To clarify the 3% price rise issue, my P1 dealer confirms that it is nothing to do with Canada - or anywhere else that he knows of for that matter. He seems dubious of the message, saying that the email does not have the normal style or signature of a P1 message. Maybe someone tweaking Americans? I guess the US dealers will know.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

To clarify the 3% price rise issue, my P1 dealer confirms that it is nothing to do with Canada - or anywhere else that he knows of for that matter. He seems dubious of the message, saying that the email does not have the normal style or signature of a P1 message. Maybe someone tweaking Americans? I guess the US dealers will know.

It's a legitimate communication from Phase One.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Doppler9000]

It's a legitimate communication from Phase One.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Is it limited to U.S. customers?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Is it limited to U.S. customers?

That I do not know, but I presume it would be.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[ThdeDude]

It's a legitimate communication from Phase One.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Some of the phrases used in the letter are interesting.

"Dear High-Valued Customer" Wouldn't "highly-valued customer" be better/proper English? Sounds a bit like "dear high-value (asset) customer"!

"Thank you for your trust and choice in Phase One." OK, appreciate the thanks, what about something that warrants that. Say, a roadmap!

"collaborating positively is, we believe, the best way forward." - Do we have the impression this being a core value of PhaseOne?


Maybe I am in a bad mood because today is Tax Day.

 

[buildbot]

"Dear High-Valued Customer" Wouldn't "highly-valued customer" be better/proper English? Sounds a bit like "dear high-value (asset) customer"!

I read it that way too

Which given that I never have and don’t plan to buy a _new_ Phase One back was pretty amusing to me.

 

[Ben730]

Mamiya-Phase one has never the best or good working AF. They has never very special or very fast lenses.
Their backs only were special and that is what they can do very good and I dont understand why they dont continue.
Everybody who use technical cameras would like to see a new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS from sony that is the perfect sensor for this use.
Only a back- nothing more- no stupid funcions- only a simple back with this sensor. this could be a cheap back like IQ1 series, under 10 k, similar to hasselblad price - back plaese without the strips. Also a more expensive version in IQ4 stile for guys with more money would be fine. Just put this sensor into a back- that all.
This would be the most usable item Phase one could ever made.
This is what all architecture photographers would love and would buy.

I think so too. A new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS Sony sensor would be a successful product.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I think so too. A new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS Sony sensor would be a successful product.

Unfortunately,

I totally agree.
Leica was always a premium camera and lensmaker for people who dont care about prices.
If you go with Leica it was always clear that this will be very expensive, so i dont think that any tariffs will really hurt the Leica market.
So I think the tariffs will more a big problem to fuji-hasselblad users who have a strong limited financial possibilities and need a tool for work or hobby.
They will stay away from consuming or getting used stuff that will be offered for very low prices now.
Phase one is a completely different story.
They simply ignore the big change in the whole MFD world that happened already few years ago.
The MFD users loved phase one back becouse of their backs were the best tools for use them on technical cameras.
Here and only here phase one was very special.
Mamiya-Phase one has never the best or good working AF. They has never very special or very fast lenses.
Their backs only were special and that is what they can do very good and I dont understand why they dont continue.
Everybody who use technical cameras would like to see a new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS from sony that is the perfect sensor for this use.
Only a back- nothing more- no stupid funcions- only a simple back with this sensor. this could be a cheap back like IQ1 series, under 10 k, similar to hasselblad price - back plaese without the strips. Also a more expensive version in IQ4 stile for guys with more money would be fine. Just put this sensor into a back- that all.
This would be the most usable item Phase one could ever made.
This is what all architecture photographers would love and would buy.
As a second step Phase one will need a new camera body, mirrorless, something in Hasselblad 907x style.
Anyway no camera maker can survive with selling 10 back in year with 250 MP or more.
They have to sell also their lenses and other additional equipment to keep the production alive. You need a size to survive on the free marked.
You can make a back for 70k but very few will be interested in buying it or will be able to do it. With the 100MP sensor and a very good lens you can achieve results that cant be really beaten ( I mean it that you could see a real advantage, not only theoretically).
And dont worry about Trump: nobody knows what his brilliant plan about the tariffs really is, even Trump dont know it and I think his loves it to know, that the whole planet, the best brains, thay all are thinking and asking themselfs: what do this guy really wants? And this is funny, becouse even trump dont know it, maybe the tarriffs has a secret mathematical formular that depends on his digestion in the morning. Trump hates science, in his opinion he is the only one genius...
In germany we had a guy like this in the past, he feeled also like Trump to be the only one genial mesiah, he has also digestion problems, he hated also facts and survived some assassinations but in contrast to Trump he was not funny at all, even when his filmic copy made by Chaplin really was .

This would certainly be a desirable product for a very niche segment of the industry and produce some revenue for Phase One, but unfortunately there are flaws in the logic that it would be a successful product if the intent of the product is to produce profitability. I personally would love to see it, but ...

It makes a lot of sense for an end user - people who would buy such a product would love it. But it doesn't make sense for Phase One as they are currently constructed. IMO

Either it is a wildly successful product that would then force you to restructure the entire company to compete in the high volume sub $10k market, or a much more modestly successful product (the more realistic possibility) that simply proves to be a distraction to their core business in terms of the effort and expense of creating a product that is dramatically out of their existing marketplace and only marginally profitable to begin with.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[ThdeDude]

I think so too. A new phase one back with the 100 MP BIS Sony sensor would be a successful product.

I assume you meant with the 44x33mm sensor, not with the 100MP sensor of the IQ3.

We already have the CVF-100C and with a Mark II somewhere on the horizon. I doubt that for P1 there is a good business model for a 44x33mm digital back.

 

[vieri]

Agree with @ThdeDude and @Steve Hendrix , I don't see Phase One going for that segment of the market with a 100mp BSI 44x33 sensor - not in general, since as pointed out it would be out of their business model, and especially now that the new Sony sensor is nearly here. If they wanted to go for a smaller-than-IQ4 sensor, it would make sense to wait for the new one to do so, IMHO.

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[Phase V]

Is the 100 MP 44x33mm BSI not already in use in one of their arial backs, IMX or whatever they call it?
As for the new Sony sensor, my guess is this thing is made for surveillance, arial mapping and so on
where resolution is more important than image quality. Doesn´t make sense to release a back that has
inferior picture quality as it´s predecessor IMHO.

 

[ThdeDude]

Is the 100 MP 44x33mm BSI not already in use in one of their arial backs, IMX or whatever they call it?
As for the new Sony sensor, my guess is this thing is made for surveillance, arial mapping and so on
where resolution is more important than image quality. Doesn´t make sense to release a back that has
inferior picture quality as it´s predecessor IMHO.

You mean the 128MP 44x33mm, "IMX661"? https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/News/Press/202103/21-021E/

Also has Global Shutter which - assuming it working perfectly - would allow use of a wider selection of lenses.

 

[Phase V]

You mean the 128MP 44x33mm, "IMX661"? https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/News/Press/202103/21-021E/

Also has Global Shutter which - assuming it working perfectly - would allow use of a wider selection of lenses.

Nope, this one:

iXM-100 Camera

Phase One iXM Camera Series offers high-productivity metric cameras that integrates with your preferred platform. A high-quality UAV camera that delivers superior quality aerial imaging for diverse inspection and mapping applications.

www.phaseone.com

 

[tcdeveau]

Is the 100 MP 44x33mm BSI not already in use in one of their arial backs, IMX or whatever they call it?
As for the new Sony sensor, my guess is this thing is made for surveillance, arial mapping and so on
where resolution is more important than image quality. Doesn´t make sense to release a back that has
inferior picture quality as it´s predecessor IMHO.

yeah my understanding as well was that they were already using it for industrial purposes. There’s a monochrome version too IIRC. It’s a shame it’s either 40x54 or bust with BSI and P1 when it comes to our uses.

 

[Paul2660]

I think it's fair to say, so for "much ado about nothing". No one has really increased their pricing, period. The 10% increase has been in effect now across the board for everyone since at least the 9th, or before. Sure some chips and smart phones were allowed out (big surprise here), but all the major Japanese companies, Nikon, Fuji, Canon etc. should be seeing the effects of the 10% tariff , as should Hasselblad and Leica (which on a GFX100II or X2D) is quite a bit.

As nothing as changes, it's save to assume it will not for the next 90 days at least and I guess the 10% is being handled internally by the companies involved, i.e. covered in current mark ups, thus less profits by 10%.

Paul

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I think it's fair to say, so for "much ado about nothing". No one has really increased their pricing, period. The 10% increase has been in effect now across the board for everyone since at least the 9th, or before. Sure some chips and smart phones were allowed out (big surprise here), but all the major Japanese companies, Nikon, Fuji, Canon etc. should be seeing the effects of the 10% tariff , as should Hasselblad and Leica (which on a GFX100II or X2D) is quite a bit.

As nothing as changes, it's save to assume it will not for the next 90 days at least and I guess the 10% is being handled internally by the companies involved, i.e. covered in current mark ups, thus less profits by 10%.

Paul

Yes, interesting in the responses. Many manufacturers have so far chosen not to make any change with regard to pricing (excepting China-based sourcing).

However, we did just receive updated pricing from Leica, which has an increase of around 7% across the board.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Doppler9000]

I think it's fair to say, so for "much ado about nothing".

As nothing as changes, it's save to assume it will not for the next 90 days at least and I guess the 10% is being handled internally by the companies involved, i.e. covered in current mark ups, thus less profits by 10%.

Paul

10 points. This is too much to bear for long.

 

[Paul2660]

Interesting on Leica @ 7%. The previous rumors had them with the usual annual price increase coming on July1, so I guess they just pushed it up. The Leica rumors says the increase goes into effect 05/01/25.

There is also mention that Fuji is making plans on a price increase in the same time frame, but I can't find anything from Fuji officially to back that up.

However 7% on a GFX100II would hurt for sure.

Paul

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Interesting on Leica @ 7%. The previous rumors had them with the usual annual price increase coming on July1, so I guess they just pushed it up. The Leica rumors says the increase goes into effect 05/01/25.

There is also mention that Fuji is making plans on a price increase in the same time frame, but I can't find anything from Fuji officially to back that up.

However 7% on a GFX100II would hurt for sure.

Paul

Correct, this is effective as of May 1. There are some exceptions to the 7%, notably the D-Lux 8 (75% ... !!) and accessories (think batteries, chargers, etc.) which increase 90% (!!). Yes, those $200 batteries somehow became substantially more expensive.

Notably, in the dealer communication, Leica also makes the following statement:

"These are not permanent Leica pricing changes. As the tariff situation evolves, we will continue to evaluate and adjust pricing accordingly. Our goal is to remain transparent and responsive as new information becomes available."

Steve Hendrix/CI