Technical cameras – getting started. wide-angle lenses and color cast

[mccuskerj]

I'm looking to get into the tech cam world – coming over from a Sinar F2 and Leica M system – but is a $6,500 HR Digaron-W 40 mm f/4,0 the only good way to make wide-angle images with modern backs (excluding the IQ4)? I'd love to be able to get in at around $10k total budget (Arca Rm3di, IQ160 or CFV II 50c back, and a lens), but this is seeming like a stretch.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

You can get by with lesser quality optics, like some late-stage analog-digital crossover era optics from Rodenstock, e.g. sinaron digital 55 for example, but they will show less sharpness and pop and will lose quality towards the edges when shifted compared to the modern counterparts.

So the answer is that you can get wide-angles from the sinaron digital line for example, but it will be a step below in terms of micro-contrast and sharpness compared to the HR series which to this day are unmatched optics for tech cams especially considering their image circles which go up to 90mm.

You could therefore "cheap out" on the optical side until you have cash to upgrade to the HR stuff down the line.

All other good wide-angles beyond the Sinaron stuff or repurposed end of analoge era optics cost more.

You get what you pay for with the Rodies.

 

[dchew]

It depends on how much you want to shift. The sk 35xl is pretty good with the IQ160. Not quite as good on the CFV II 50c. It won't shift as far as the 40hr, but it is a bit wider lens anyway. The 40hr is 41.84mm, sk35xl is 36.4mm.

Dave

 

[JeffK]

I'm looking to get into the tech cam world – coming over from a Sinar F2 and Leica M system – but is a $6,500 HR Digaron-W 40 mm f/4,0 the only good way to make wide-angle images with modern backs (excluding the IQ4)? I'd love to be able to get in at around $10k total budget (Arca Rm3di, IQ160 or CFV II 50c back, and a lens), but this is seeming like a stretch.

If you don't have a need for critical precision work eg: architectural work for paying clients, then you might consider expanding your horizon and looking at an Actus G series. With the base Actus G you can use a digital back, or a 35mm full frame, or any of the Fuji MF's. Then you can use any bare lens you have. If you buy a db or GFX with an eShutter then you don't need a working Copal shutter on the lens. As an example I have a bunch of Rodenstock APO Sironar digitals for sale and they're way less than half of what you'd pay for a used ALPA, AS, Cambo mounted version.

With 10k I'd go for a base Actus G, a used GFX (or IQ with live view) and a couple of good lenses.

 

[mccuskerj]

If you don't have a need for critical precision work eg: architectural work for paying clients, then you might consider expanding your horizon and looking at an Actus G series. With the base Actus G you can use a digital back, or a 35mm full frame, or any of the Fuji MF's. Then you can use any bare lens you have. If you buy a db or GFX with an eShutter then you don't need a working Copal shutter on the lens. As an example I have a bunch of Rodenstock APO Sironar digitals for sale and they're way less than half of what you'd pay for a used ALPA, AS, Cambo mounted version.

With 10k I'd go for a base Actus G, a used GFX (or IQ with live view) and a couple of good lenses.

Thanks for the suggestions! Very interesting alternative - not as compact but more flexible.

If I'm looking to achieve approx. 28mm full-frame equivalent field of view with the Actus and a GFX, what focal length medium format lens do I need?

 

[Niddiot]

For 28mm on something with cropped MF sensor like a GFX or 50Cii then you are looking at 35mm. Avoiding casts in short term best done with something like Pentax 645 35mm (A or HD) which you can get panels for the Arca and Actus. Cambo do a modified Contax 35mm 645 lens where they have just pulled the cells and remounted which is also a nice lens.

 

[usm]

…But you will get distortion instead of colorcast…

 

[JeffK]

Thanks for the suggestions! Very interesting alternative - not as compact but more flexible.

If I'm looking to achieve approx. 28mm full-frame equivalent field of view with the Actus and a GFX, what focal length large format lens do I need?

A 35,45 or 55 MF/LF lens gets you in the range of 28-35 equivalent. Grandagon's are relatively affordable in 800-1k range. Some longer Rodies are in the 1-2K ranges.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

I got excellent results with a Leaf Credo 60 (essentially identical back as the IQ160) and a SK 35XL: shooting architecture/interior. This was on a Cambo WRS setup. I also used it with a 28HR, really nice and sharp apart from having to correct the distortion — requires carefully recording shifts and then using Alpa lens corrector. The 35 XL has a decent amount of lens cast and vignetting but both correctable with LCC. I did a lot of tests and discovered the centre filter made flare worse and required much longer shutter speeds so never used it, instead bracketing exposes and having extra for the corners if need be. The 28 is quite wide and I could get up to around 5 mm rise/fall — depending on what is near the edges of the frame. If it's just sky or shadow area easy to fix in post. I always crop vertical frames to 4x5 anyway so often the problem area is out of frame. There is also potential for a small rise/fall coupled with a small camera tilt which can be corrected in post without a lot of image degradation, rather than a larger rise/fall.

The difficulty with that setup was the very rudimentary live view, which I managed with a ND filter and sometime just having to take a test shot (always tethered). If you can manage those drawbacks it's a good relatively affordable option.

The good thing about this setup is the upgrade path to the IQ4-150 which is where I ended up. I bought mine new (got a good deal but it was still $$$, but it's a business investment so worth it) but had the opportunity to buy a couple of second hand units at a substantial discount, and they are only going to get cheaper as time goes by.

I also have the Sinaron digital 55 that Paul Spinnler mentioned and found it to be great (better at close/mid range, field curvature is tricky but when you get it right it's excellent). It's essentially a Grandagon 55. I still use it with my IQ4 within it's limitations. I can do a stitch with it for a pretty wide perspective.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The Sinaron Digital lenses are great entry choices with the 55 being the best of the bunch in terms of shift performance.

On a 60 MPX back it will be a great performer and if you are content to shift not much more thant 15-20mm you should have a good medium wide angle.

Only when moving up the totem pole with a 150 megapixel back and once you want to shift more liberally heavyweights of the optical landscape like the SK 60 XL are needed.

 

[diggles]

Capture Integration has some great pricing on Cambo gear right now…

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Wide RS 35mm f/5.6 XL APO Digitar Lenspanel, Copal

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Wide RS 40mm T/S HR f/4 Digiron-W Lenspanel, Aperture Mount

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WRS 1000 Tech Camera Body

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I used the Schneider 35XL on the CFV II 50C for a couple of years and was mostly happy with the results of that lens. It is sharp, but it you'll have to deal with a lot of color cast. Capture One cleans it up nicely though. I really liked the CFV II 50C. Lovely camera.

There is a rumor that the Hasselblad CFV 100C is on the way, but you will likely get months of use out of your 50 before the 100 ever becomes available for sale. If anything can pull me back into a tech cam setup it will be the CFV 100C.

I've never used the 40HR, but based on the sample images I have seen it is very nice. If you are shooting 1 point perspective architecture it will exhibit some distortion that is noticeable, Capture One can correct it though– you'll just need to take notes of your settings so you can enter them in the software when you process your images.

 

[rdeloe]

You have options!

In a similar vein as the Actus G, consider an Arca-Swiss F-Universalis. Review and write-up here: https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Arca-Swiss-F-Universalis-Review If you need a bit more sturdiness and gearing, the Arca-Swiss M-Two that has been mentioned would work (but costs more).

I use the Pentax-A 645 35/3.5 that has been mentioned already on my F-Universalis outfit. It's excellent, but as with all of the older retrofocus wide angle designs, you get moustache distortion when you shift. It may be a deal breaker (architecture) or a non-problem (what I do). Some details here: https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Lenses

 

[diggles]

@mccuskerj

You may already know this, but an added benefit of going with the Arca system is that R Mount lenses can be used on both the RM3Di and Arca F / M series cameras.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Arca is the most flexibile if you want to be able to shoot hybrid, especially with all the view camera options as Diggles mentioned + the rotaslide which allows you to use a digital back and a film back at the same time.

 

[DNN]

You might take a look at the used market - rod klukas has some excellent used rodenstock digarons and some SK - all in the Rmount needed for the Rm3Di, etc. https://www.rodklukas.com/used-lenses.html
And you should be seeing the price of a used CFV II 50c going down with the recent announcements about a forthcoming 100MP Hasselblad back. With the 50MP back, you don't necessarily need the latest digarons as the pixel size is larger.
Rod currently has a couple of reasonably priced used Rm3Di in stock at https://www.rodklukas.com/used-equipment.html

 

[4x5Australian]

I'm looking to get into the tech cam world – coming over from a Sinar F2 and Leica M system – but is a $6,500 HR Digaron-W 40 mm f/4,0 the only good way to make wide-angle images with modern backs (excluding the IQ4)? I'd love to be able to get in at around $10k total budget (Arca Rm3di, IQ160 or CFV II 50c back, and a lens), but this is seeming like a stretch.

Welcome to the forum. Great question, and one close to my heart.

The answer is no; a $6,500 HR Digaron-W 40 mm f/4,0 is not the only good way to make wide-angle images with modern backs.

The Schneider Apo-Digitar 35XL is a very good lens and sharp across most of its 90mm image circle. It's the best 35mm lens for shift movements at a reasonably budget-friendly price point. It's also ultra compact and lightweight and distortion is <0.5%. If you want to do wide angle photography such as broad landscapes or architecture, I reckon that this lens alone is worth getting a Cambo Wide RS ('WRS') 1000 or 1200 body and a digital back for. And the total package is surprisingly compact.

The retrofocus 645 35mm alternatives like the Contax Zeiss 645 35mm and Pentax 645 35mm are, in comparison, large, heavy and have conspicuous barrel distortion. I tried them.

For a set of budget-friendly lenses, you could team the 35XL with the Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47XL and Rodenstock Grandagon-N 4.5/65mm lenses.

The choice of a technical body is subject to personal preferences and the type of subjects one photographs. I shoot architecture and constantly interchange between focal lengths. I initially tried a Cambo Wide DS with a digital rear plate, P45+ back and a Schneider 35XL lens but was unnerved by the difficulty and uncertainties of composing and focusing on the poor live view of the P45+ back, and returned to using 4x5 film. When travelling internationally with boxes of 4x5 film became too difficult, I was persuaded into a new Arca-Swiss Rm3di because its long-travel focus mount was designed to facilitate focus without reference to a live view or ground glass image. However, I came to so strongly dislike the bayonet-type R lens mount, and a few other features, that I sold the Rm3di and returned to the Cambo system, this time to the more compact WRS, with which I am very happy. The WRS mount lens interchange is fast, easy and secure, it's always easy to see what is going on, and mounting and unmounting a lens involves no application of rotational torque on either the Copal shutter or the shutter/lens cell threads. Focus using the Schneider helical focuser with a good live view is fast and snappy. However, looking back at those early tests with the 35XL and P45+ on the Cambo WDS, I can see now that my focus using just the distance markings on the Schneider helical focuser and an aperture of f/11 was fine, and since then I have worked out how to indulge my frequent preference of composing on a gridded groundglass by using a Hasselblad 6x6 gridded ground glass adapter and viewfinder.

 

[alatreille]

Schneider 43XL is almost exactly a 28 on a full size sensor.

Thanks for the suggestions! Very interesting alternative - not as compact but more flexible.

If I'm looking to achieve approx. 28mm full-frame equivalent field of view with the Actus and a GFX, what focal length medium format lens do I need?

 

[guphotography]

Given thet rarity of the 43xl, 47xl is a very good alternative, excellent performance for the value, though the focal length is a little bit longer, its edge sharpness is significantly better than the rodie/sinar 55mm.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

43s and 60x are also approaching the 7k and beyond mark ... not withing the OP's constraints ...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

47 XL digitals can easily found on eBay – indeed a good alternative.

@guphotography: how is sharpness, shiftability with this one? I know you both had it and then also the 43 later on once you found one?