Upgrading to the Hasselblad X2D Mark II

[mristuccia]

I'm even more confused by this (long) review of the Hasselblad Ambassador Karl Taylor saying that the sensor used in the Mark II is a different Sony sensor from the one used in the Mark I. Is it so? Is there a new Sony 44x33mm 100 mpx CMOS BSI sensor produced by Sony? I'm more inclined to think that it is still the same sensor, only just customized in a different way in terms of PDAF map and camera processing software.

He also noticed a slight more noise / different noise pattern in the new model above 1600 ISO compared to the Mark I when inspected in Phocus. He then repeated the ISO comparison in Camera Raw, stating that using Camera Raw there will be no noise processing and we will therefore be able to better compare the native noise.

 

[Paul2660]

In regards to the noise patterns on the MKII, did he apply HNNR? Just curious, as from what I have found, HNNR is the best tool for noise on the X2D raw MKI. Especially if you are pushing the image. Lr can run denoise however from what I have seen, if you have pushed the exposure much say 2 + stops in Lr especially on a ISO800 or higher, then denoise tends to create a strange greenish color to the shadows. Only on images that were pushed. HNNR, (the old way going through PM@ etc) was tedious at best, but still gave more details, much less hot pixels, and smoother shadows than Lr/ACR. I just did not enjoy the process to get the final image, and with Phocus 4 is seems HNNR is now native to the desktop version which is a huge advantage.

As for a new sensor, I would be surprised if Sony made a new version of the sensor, there is no mention of it on their site or when the sensor is searched however a new PDFA pattern was added 2x more focus points, and I am willing to bet that Hasselblad/DJI tweaked the sensor color array, sitting on top of the main sensor. Something had to be tweaked to get a native bas of 50, vs 64.

Also still nothing at mentioned on the 400MP OUTPUT, last shown in Nov, of 2024 in a "beta" version of Phocus. I can't understand why this can't be released. The results that were shown in the one video were impressive. I realize it won't work in the field very often, however it would be a nice feature to have especially if Hasselblad was able to get there with only 6 frames unlike everyone else with 16 (Fuji in MF) and Sony, Nikon, in 35mm. Panasonic still makes it work with 8 in camera.

Paul

 

[TimothyHyde]

If you update the firmware on the 135mm lens (using the app makes that process a snap), the other new features of the new camera work very well. I'm especially loving face and animal detection. AF-C would be nice (especially on the 20-35) but this is still worth the camera upgrade for me.

 

[mristuccia]

In regards to the noise patterns on the MKII, did he apply HNNR? Just curious, as from what I have found, HNNR is the best tool for noise on the X2D raw MKI. Especially if you are pushing the image. Lr can run denoise however from what I have seen, if you have pushed the exposure much say 2 + stops in Lr especially on a ISO800 or higher, then denoise tends to create a strange greenish color to the shadows. Only on images that were pushed. HNNR, (the old way going through PM@ etc) was tedious at best, but still gave more details, much less hot pixels, and smoother shadows than Lr/ACR. I just did not enjoy the process to get the final image, and with Phocus 4 is seems HNNR is now native to the desktop version which is a huge advantage.

As for a new sensor, I would be surprised if Sony made a new version of the sensor, there is no mention of it on their site or when the sensor is searched however a new PDFA pattern was added 2x more focus points, and I am willing to bet that Hasselblad/DJI tweaked the sensor color array, sitting on top of the main sensor. Something had to be tweaked to get a native bas of 50, vs 64.

Also still nothing at mentioned on the 400MP OUTPUT, last shown in Nov, of 2024 in a "beta" version of Phocus. I can't understand why this can't be released. The results that were shown in the one video were impressive. I realize it won't work in the field very often, however it would be a nice feature to have especially if Hasselblad was able to get there with only 6 frames unlike everyone else with 16 (Fuji in MF) and Sony, Nikon, in 35mm. Panasonic still makes it work with 8 in camera.

Paul

I don't think he was interested in noise reduction, rather in native noise performances. So, he didn't mention anything about applying HNNR. I agree, it must have something do do with the difference in base ISO between the two cameras.

That 400 MP feature seemed almost like a ghost that passed by. I can no longer remember if it was real or just a dream. Not that I'm personally interested in this feature, since I stick with the 907x, but it would be nice to see it reach the final stage of production.

 

[SrMphoto]

I'm even more confused by this (long) review of the Hasselblad Ambassador Karl Taylor saying that the sensor used in the Mark II is a different Sony sensor from the one used in the Mark I. Is it so? Is there a new Sony 44x33mm 100 mpx CMOS BSI sensor produced by Sony? I'm more inclined to think that it is still the same sensor, only just customized in a different way in terms of PDAF map and camera processing software.

He also noticed a slight more noise / different noise pattern in the new model above 1600 ISO compared to the Mark I when inspected in Phocus. He then repeated the ISO comparison in Camera Raw, stating that using Camera Raw there will be no noise processing and we will therefore be able to better compare the native noise.

Fuji also said that GFX100 II had a newly developed sensor, but it is the same sensor with some changes to toppings, hardware, and software.
Mark 2 has more PDAF points and ISO 50, which indicates changes around the sensor.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Wow, X2D prices in free fall - the guy netted around 4k USD! only for his:



Seems like a lot of people wanting to upgrade based on ebay activity right now. And of course quick upgrade cycles plus lower MSRP affords zero value protection.

 

[Michael Erlewine]

Karl taylor is, for me, right on the money, answering my most serious question, that of ISO, in particular ISO miniumum. I am used to IS0 64 not only with the three Hasselblad X cameras, but a large Nikon system I have been using for many years. I do find that ISO 50 is causing me problemns, and Taylor's encouragement to use ISO 100 is helpful. Yet, I will use ISO 50 for those shots than can need it, but I will no longer try to use it all the time.

 

[mristuccia]

Karl taylor is, for me, right on the money, answering my most serious question, that of ISO, in particular ISO miniumum. I am used to IS0 64 not only with the three Hasselblad X cameras, but a large Nikon system I have been using for many years. I do find that ISO 50 is causing me problemns, and Taylor's encouragement to use ISO 100 is helpful. Yet, I will use ISO 50 for those shots than can need it, but I will no longer try to use it all the time.

Karl Taylor is only saying that by using ISO 50 he would need to use 1-stop more power with his strobes. So, his choice is mainly driven by reasons of light and power reserves.
He compared ISO 64 on X2D Mk 1 with ISO 50 on X2D Mk 2 and did not find any difference. So I don't see any reasons for not using ISO 50 in case you'll need to stretch dynamic range up to the maximum.

 

[Michael Erlewine]

Karl Taylor is only saying that by using ISO 50 he would need to use 1-stop more power with his strobes. So, his choice is mainly driven by reasons of light and power reserves.
He compared ISO 64 on X2D Mk 1 with ISO 50 on X2D Mk 2 and did not find any difference. So I don't see any reasons for not using ISO 50 in case you'll need to stretch dynamic range up to the maximum.

I hear that, but also am now working with the X2D Mark II myself. I am just reporting my experience which is that I find a difference, perhaps not so much in the final photo but in the process of actually taking photos.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I'm even more confused by this (long) review of the Hasselblad Ambassador Karl Taylor saying that the sensor used in the Mark II is a different Sony sensor from the one used in the Mark I. Is it so? Is there a new Sony 44x33mm 100 mpx CMOS BSI sensor produced by Sony? I'm more inclined to think that it is still the same sensor, only just customized in a different way in terms of PDAF map and camera processing software.

He also noticed a slight more noise / different noise pattern in the new model above 1600 ISO compared to the Mark I when inspected in Phocus. He then repeated the ISO comparison in Camera Raw, stating that using Camera Raw there will be no noise processing and we will therefore be able to better compare the native noise.

Yes the PDAF might be more dense - question will be if the back variant has more exacerbated issues with wides as a result ...

 

[mristuccia]

Yes the PDAF might be more dense - question will be if the back variant has more exacerbated issues with wides as a result ...

Luckily, I have a solution for this issue, so now I could not care less.
But let's hope they won't implement the new denser PDAF pattern on the upcoming digital back (futile hope).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well for sure with 7400 it is a killer camera deal.

It also poses a problem for Leica who positioned the SL3 at the same price point. Ie, if you are in a shop and see an X2D MK II and a n SL3 for the same price I would assume most will buy the X

 

[Bwcolor]

His test of ISO differences only showed differences at very high ISO. At more reasonable ISO, like 1600 not much difference. Of course, dynamic range drops as you use higher ISO. He also ran real world test of the stablization with the 90mm. I believe that the 8/10 stop figure came about using the 38v.
A different sensor is a fair statement since the number of phase detection point increased.
I found that updating Phocus 2 mobile, desktop for mac, firmware for body and lenses was straight forward. No communication issues. Setting up the camera is quite straightforward.

 

[Bwcolor]

Well for sure with 7400 it is a killer camera deal.

It also poses a problem for Leica who positioned the SL3 at the same price point. Ie, if you are in a shop and see an X2D MK II and a n SL3 for the same price I would assume most will buy the X

It really depends. If you are in love with SL lenses, or want to attach an ‘M’ lens then the SL is perfect. Also, Hasselblad, like many manufacturers won’t state their level of weather sealing. The SL-3 and a few other cameras are rated and the manufacturer is willing to provide the rating.. If you want top level autofocus and absolute speed then you would go for S/N/C. If you shoot with a limited range of subject that don’t move crazily and you don’t mind slightly larger lenses, then you go X2Dii and with it you get amazing resolution and color. You also benefit from flash sync up to 1/2000-1/4000 second. If size is your thing..small size, then APSc, or 4/3rds. Also, if cost is your only concern and you are set on medium format, then Fuji might look good..especially if you want a fixed lens medium format solution.

 

[SrMphoto]

I hear that, but also am now working with the X2D Mark II myself. I am just reporting my experience which is that I find a difference, perhaps not so much in the final photo but in the process of actually taking photos.

Can you elaborate on what issues you are having with ISO 50?

 

[algrove]

Talk of M lenses on the SL system, reminded me to try the M lens from LLL, the Z1.5, which is supposed to cover the 44x33 sensor. I must try that to verify since I have the Fotodiox L/M-HB adapter.

 

[Alkibiades]

Luckily, I have a solution for this issue, so now I could not care less.
But let's hope they won't implement the new denser PDAF pattern on the upcoming digital back (futile hope).

Afcourse they will- Hasselblad dont care about technical camera users!!!
Thay dont exist for them- we should learn from the past.
They have been so arrogant that they even dont implemented your solution in Phocus that you served them for free.
No other company would do this!
They would be more than happy to get the solution as a gift and pay you for your great work.
It is simply not OK that 5 years old lenses- some of their best- have so bad parts inside.
As a premium company they should change the motors for better for free in these lenses.
Let take a look on Canon for example: on the newest Canon 5R II with the best and fastest AF on the marked any 30 years old cheap EF lenses work with no issues!!!
I own Hasselbald 1,9-80 mm, I find it the most exciting hasselbald lens- and especially here the continiuos AF would make sence, when you work with 1,9 aperture and not for wide angle lenses.
XD 100C II is a very huge update indeed, but when they are not able to update their best lenses ( even physicly when needed) so it is a problem of the company itself.

 

[Paratom]

I also dont think one would choose between X2d and sl3 based on price.
I own both. I prefer the sensor of the x2d, but the sl3 feels more responsive and fast (thats why I also asked about blackout), plus you habe the option for long lenses.
but the x2d gaining c-af, and specially the lenses getting more compact, nearly ff size, I think the hassy is more an more capable to be used like a ff camera.
And I agree 7200 euro looks like a fair price.
I am still not sure if I shall upgrade to the MarkII…there are certainly benefits (shorter blackout and joystick would be the most important for me) and caf is nice, but does it feel ff-fast/responsive? ( I mean not like canon Nikon but like Leica SL-system)? I mean the x2dI doesnt feel „Ok“ already in regards of af for me.
anyways, kight become weak probably

 

[Paratom]

Anybody hear who can tell us how much closer the x2dii gets to the speed and everyday usability of a leica sl3(besides the tele range)?

 

[mristuccia]

Afcourse they will- Hasselblad dont care about technical camera users!!!
Thay dont exist for them- we should learn from the past.
They have been so arrogant that they even dont implemented your solution in Phocus that you served them for free.
No other company would do this!
They would be more than happy to get the solution as a gift and pay you for your great work.
It is simply not OK that 5 years old lenses- some of their best- have so bad parts inside.
As a premium company they should change the motors for better for free in these lenses.
Let take a look on Canon for example: on the newest Canon 5R II with the best and fastest AF on the marked any 30 years old cheap EF lenses work with no issues!!!
I own Hasselbald 1,9-80 mm, I find it the most exciting hasselbald lens- and especially here the continiuos AF would make sence, when you work with 1,9 aperture and not for wide angle lenses.
XD 100C II is a very huge update indeed, but when they are not able to update their best lenses ( even physicly when needed) so it is a problem of the company itself.

I hear you, and instinctively I tend to be with you in this.
But throughout my life, I have always tried to put myself in other people's shoes, and I must admit that Hasselblad is doing a great job of providing us with excellent cameras at reasonable prices.
You know how hard I tried to convince them of the importance of the issue of PDAF banding, but we must also admit that we are a small minority compared to the target audience they are addressing. What seems to be a big problem for us, it may just be a small singularity to the majority. That's just how it is. As time goes by, I'm getting more and more used to being part of the minority. Sometimes it's a curse, as people don't even understand my concerns.