In germany yes, and it seems they are very stable
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What the Phase...?
- Thread starter Phase V
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KC_2020
Active member
For as much as the name is the same but it's not the international company that grew out of rebranded Bowens flash systems. Wex in the UK now owns the Bowens brand.
I think Phase when to Calumet in Germany because of their position in the market place for consumer products.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Phase is not exclusively sold by Calumet. You can order it from a variety of authorized dealers in Germany. My preferred one is Photouniversal in Stuttgart, for example.
They just cut the in-house sales reps which was a special situation in Germany. Like in all other markets, it is now the network of dealers who sell the backs. It is a cost cutting measure, simple as that, by management, as they saw little benefit having them on payroll when the dealer network in any case can sell the backs. It is a bit annoying as sometimes these sales reps were able to help with discounts or help you find a good deal on a CPO lens.
Since P1 has been in the game for decades, not much will change except in that specific instance of Germany. People who want a back can call their favorite dealer. C1 in the US, Teamworkphoto, Linhofstudio, etc. in the UK, for example.
There are many places that can order P1 stuff for you. It really is a firing of about I think 5 people roundabout in Germany.
The bespoke photography group now consists of Drew and the sales head and then that's it, I think.
The focus is solely on B2B after C1 has been spun off and is doing its own thing chasing Lightroom market share and Fuji, CaNikon people.
It is a recessionary environment. Banks collapse and big bank shares drop, capital has become expensive, budgets for photography are being reduced, etc.
Phase is a business laser-focused on staying profitable and chasing pockets of profits in inspection solutions.
You can make the most money by offering the highest customer value. If you can help a company operating cross-country electricity lines for example to save millions in inspection and surveillance costs by offering a new, highly efficient drone with high res cameras then you can ask for a lot of money for this.
Selling backs to photographers who are struggling while competition lowers the price point for crop MFD is not the way to go if you want to grow the business.
We can be thankful that Leica is developing the S4, frankly.
They just cut the in-house sales reps which was a special situation in Germany. Like in all other markets, it is now the network of dealers who sell the backs. It is a cost cutting measure, simple as that, by management, as they saw little benefit having them on payroll when the dealer network in any case can sell the backs. It is a bit annoying as sometimes these sales reps were able to help with discounts or help you find a good deal on a CPO lens.
Since P1 has been in the game for decades, not much will change except in that specific instance of Germany. People who want a back can call their favorite dealer. C1 in the US, Teamworkphoto, Linhofstudio, etc. in the UK, for example.
There are many places that can order P1 stuff for you. It really is a firing of about I think 5 people roundabout in Germany.
The bespoke photography group now consists of Drew and the sales head and then that's it, I think.
The focus is solely on B2B after C1 has been spun off and is doing its own thing chasing Lightroom market share and Fuji, CaNikon people.
It is a recessionary environment. Banks collapse and big bank shares drop, capital has become expensive, budgets for photography are being reduced, etc.
Phase is a business laser-focused on staying profitable and chasing pockets of profits in inspection solutions.
You can make the most money by offering the highest customer value. If you can help a company operating cross-country electricity lines for example to save millions in inspection and surveillance costs by offering a new, highly efficient drone with high res cameras then you can ask for a lot of money for this.
Selling backs to photographers who are struggling while competition lowers the price point for crop MFD is not the way to go if you want to grow the business.
We can be thankful that Leica is developing the S4, frankly.
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Hasselblad has apparently decided to pull the plug on the H series of cameras. Phase appears to be doing the equivalent of Quiet Quitting. The handwriting has been on the wall for quite some time. It makes you wonder whether Leica will ever jump into this market with a new, built from the ground up system that will be priced with a premium of 2.5x to 4x over Fuji and Hasselblad. I seriously doubt that they would take any part of Fuji's customer base. Hasselblad's customer base is already relatively small compared to Fuji’s. A niche within a niche. Is 25% of Hasselblad's customer base worth a capital investment of $20m or more? 50%. Not if the decision is approached rationally on the basis of ROI. OTOH, Leica may not operate on the basis of rational, financial decision making.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Howard, stop grinding your axe with Leica. Where does your frustration with the most iconic camera brand in the world stem from? Is it because you were unhappy with customer support a decade ago on an S lens? It's just trolling on your end, based off of pre-conceived notions.
It is being developed and I know it from direct sources, pls. They have a great team in place.
Leica as camera manufacturer is in a totally different league than Hasselblad in terms of sheer size, reach, and brand recognition. The old Hasselblad has been relegated to a shadow of itself in Sweden controlled by Shenzen with only one product line remaining and it is more likely than not that DJI is also continuously looking into how to further cut costs and what to do with the brand. Especially now that the H has ben inofficially killed. With analog camera production dead, H killed off, scanner business killed off, X camera being produced mostly in Shenzen - not sure future is super bright for Team Sweden. Didn't they just recently also kill off the New York office? Killing off H means you can cut the people putting these systems together too ... and these people are sitting in Europe.
This is a niche MFD forum. Not at all representative of the photo market. Leica is financially successful and operates physical flagship stores in the world's biggest cities.
Hasselblad merely sold 500 backs last year I hear. Globally. That's nothing. Canon sells more Cameras in a mid-sized town. Who knows how profitable the X is. Maybe they sell a few thousand, globally. It will have to be seen where the journey goes with them under DJI.
The S4 on ther hand is coming, but it will take time to hit the market. A significant change in shareholding at Leica is also imminent. Leica sells tons of Qs, Ms, SLs and a few Ss, in that order. And they develop the camera because they have the people to do it, the know-how, and also the standing in the photo world to pull off a successful contender to Hassy and Fuji's sub-10k USD offerings. They have a whole line of 35mm offerings that generate cood cash. The SL is often pitted against CaNikon offerings in reviews, ie it has broad market appeal while the X is a comparative niche product in crop MFD which is dwarfed by 35mm digital sales.
The famed colors of the Hassy are nothing else than a fancy interpolated LUT within Phocus which is a huge pain in the ass in modern workflows. If you know what you are doing you can build your own LUTs and make any camera's files kick color ass and you can even replicate the look by shooting a color chart side-by-side. And people who constantly ask when Hassy file compatibility will come to C1 don't understand that it won't come they want to keep their derivative of a LUT approach proprietary. But as Torger explained on LuLa - it is nothing special other than a good LUT which is adapted to each sensor's calibration file.
Leica sells endless Ms and just relaunched the M6 which has waiting lists in many markets.
The moment the S4 gets announced Hassy and Fuji sales will drop as it will be placed squarely as a contender with intriguing specs. Last but not least if they play it smart Leica can upsell their S4 to their existing vast clientele which Hassy has not. If they don't misprice the S4 - and I hear they won't - it will be very successful.
An S4 priced at 12k with benchmark German optics, phase AF, compatibility across the Leicaverse including M autofocus adapters, and advanced video features will eat the X alive.
Hassy X by contrast was rushed to market with no video features which have been cut last-minute due to design flaws in thermal management as evidenced by the unused mic port and as documented in the review of The Verge. Lol. Maybe something got lost in the translation between Shenzen and Gothenburg. Or between the "drone team" and the "photo team". The typical forum member here now may contend: I don't care about video - well the broader market does with most young commercial photographers needing to be able to produce multiformat content. You cannot sustainably build a large camera business just by focusing on people shooting landscapes.
The S4 will more likely than not be a formidable video camera on top thanks to the alliance with Panasonic. The S4 will be fantastic especially as all Leica glass will be compatible. A huge incentive to upgrade and almost a guarantee for great sales figures.
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buildbot
Well-known member
This is especially funny given the H6D could shoot 4K video and Alpa even built an entire camera platform for it. https://www.cined.com/alpa-platon-rehousing-hasselblad-medium-format-cameras-for-4k-raw-video/
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Timestamp: 5:37. Rolling shutter is also insane, very slow readout, practically unuseable. Look at the cons listed - Gen Z cares about video ...
buildbot
Well-known member
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I recently looked at USD prices for Alpa stuff on badgergraphic mid 2000s - the Alpa max didn't rise in line with inflation! It is under-priced by a grand! Also interesting to see that analogue tech lenses were not that expensive back in the day with a new Sironar S 360 clocking in at c. 2k USD which is like 3k+ today vs. new limted edition at Greiner for 5k EUR
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cunim
Well-known member
Hey, I used Leica cryostats to cut many brains for autoradiography. All those hours bent over a cold box. No wonder I never warmed to the cameras.I remember when I was in grad school the Leica reps would reach out to me. I’d jokingly tell them those decisions were above my pay grade but if they could get me some discounts on M or S systems I’d be willing to put in some worksame with the cryostat folks. I definitely gave myself tennis elbow a couple times in grad schoolon Leica cryostats
My comments were not intended to, and did not, address Leica's capabilities as a boutique camera manufacturer to develop a medium format digital system that can successfully compete with Fuji and Hasselblad. That's a waste of time for me, but you can go there if you choose and rant about LUTs and Shenzen and rolling shutters and all the young commercial photographers who are just dying to go into a Leica camera boutique next to Gucci to buy an S4 body and a few lenses for $40k because of its state of the art video capabilities. What I was commenting upon is the state of the medium format camera market today, with Hasselblad pulling out of the full frame market and Phase moving in a different direction from the fine art/prosumer/professional photography market because they have both concluded that their historic market is no longer tenable as a place to incur expenses and invest capital. Given the state of the existing MFD market, would it make sense for Leica to invest the huge amounts of money required to enter that market to compete with Fuji and Hasselblad. In answering that question, it is useful to consider why Sony, Nikon and Canon and even Phase have all decided NOT to jump in.
Your additional speculation about an imminent and significant change in shareholding at Leica is interesting in this context. If true, that would likely explain the speculation about the development of an S4. When a company is positioning itself for sale, it is commonplace to hype the company's future growth prospects by showcasing in a "pitchbook" for prospective buyers the new products that are in the early stage of development. However, the existing owner will slow roll the actual development work and not sully its financial statements with the relatively massive funding for the development of a new product line during the sale process. That decision would be for the new owner to make based upon its own evaluation of the realistic projections of profitability for that new product line.
Ooooooh, cutting sections for autoradiography. Now that's old school!
It's unclear to me who actually manufactures these cryostats. Way back in the day, I had a cryostat (not Leica) that was sold under multiple brands' badges as well as OEM. If you see enough of these instruments, you'll notice a family resemblance!
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Sorry to say, but you have no clue what is happening. The S4 project has long been decided upon and is ongoing and has been confirmed already a long time ago. I think a year ago already by Stefan Daniel in an interview right around the time of the Leica conference in Berne. Leica also confirmed that S lenses will be backward compatible.
The expected changes in shareholder structure are unrelated to that and my understanding is that it should happen this year after the financial year-end. And yes there is sufficient expected RoI in the S4 project, otherwise, it wouldn't be worked on.
It's just ridiculous to portray Leica as somehow financially irrational just because for your personal taste they are overpriced; they are in fact very successful and Blackstone as co-investor alongside Mr. Kaufmann has significantly and very successfully steered the company's direction in the last decade. Under the helm of the current shareholders, revenues expanded significantly – Leica was on the brink of bankruptcy before the M9 – and the company is very alive and well with a strong presence across the globe with its own stores, multiple profitable camera lines, etc.
Leica gear is also not overpriced – just because it seemingly is out of the price range for your taste – one cannot deny that especially the M system holds value extremely well with the best lenses even appreciating over time. The S system failed in a way because Leica never managed to establish a good professional service network, which was a criticism many pros working with Phase back when the S2 was introduced raised. Then there was the S CS AF problem and in general the evolution towards mirrorrless. That's the only failure in a sense that market value of S lenses dropped, but the system itself is still sold and profitable within Leica.
More generally speaking, Leica has learned a lot in the last decade incl. making a step towards a more broadly palatable price point – the SL has now a second reduced price point with the sports version of the camera and re-branded Sigma lenses. The Q is a bestseller and many rental houses rent it out a lot. Many Leica shops have waiting lists when new products come out because of the demand.
Sorry to break it to you – Leica are excellent camera manufacturer, not a boutique, and they know very well what they are doing.
The S4 will come and will be great and yes, it may be too expensive for your taste.
KC_2020
Active member
You're referring to the Leica Vario-Elmar-SL 100-400 f/5-6.3 being the rebranded Sigma 100-400MM F5-6.3 DG DN OS | C at twice Sigma's price but with the image stabilization removed ?
There is an old saying as true today as it ever was: those who really do know Leica's plans aren't talking, and those who don't really know are engaged in idle speculation (or, in this case, fevered speculation about an S4 that will have the best optics in the history of photography, the best AF, the best video, the best design, etc, yet will be priced in a way that Leica has never priced its products). This is obviously important to you, so have at it. In the meantime, when and if it ever shows up in 2025, I will evaluate it just like any other camera system on the market at that time. I have owned 5 different camera systems from 4 manufacturers over the past 15 years. I have zero "loyalty" to any of them. I buy whatever works best for me.
BTW, do you know how I know Leica is a boutique camera manufacturer? First, they sell Leicas in Leica boutiques. Second, many/most of the people who buy them believe that the reason why other photographers don't buy them is because they can't afford them. Third, many/most of the buyers believe that there is something special about them because they are manufactured in Germany and not China, even though this is 2023 and not 1963.
Alkibiades
Well-known member
would it be a great idea when leica would come back with modern Sinar backs with open universal connection like maybe hasselblad v?
this would make possible to get other sensors then Sony...
this would make possible to get other sensors then Sony...
buildbot
Well-known member
It does seem like @Paul Spinnler has the inside scoop, not just making crap up.
I wish all DB makers did this, like the older Sinar/Jenoptik backs. The s30|45 is universal in theory too, (simple 3 screw bolt pattern for adapters to anything else) but they also basically do not exist.
cunim
Well-known member
Interesting point. I have no idea who actually made/makes them. I do remember that when we transitioned from our old whatever machine to the new Leica, my little lab felt privileged. I wonder why we picked the Leica over Zeiss or whatever Back in those days, Zeiss (West Germany) was top of the microscope (and microtome?) heap, with Leica one step down. Nikon was about equivalent to Leica, but with less cachet. Once fluorescence became the thing, I preferred the Nikon optics (better UV transmission). Olympus was the value brand. All this has absolutely nothing to do with photography. Sorry