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Thread: Panasonic S1R

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think that will be what happens - unfortunately DFD will be reserved for Panasonic lenses.
    No need to worry, Leica already uses DFD on the SL. Just search for "DFD Leica SL" and you'll get hundreds of hits going back to the introduction of that camera.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    No need to worry, Leica already uses DFD on the SL. Just search for "DFD Leica SL" and you'll get hundreds of hits going back to the introduction of that camera.
    True... it was long suspected and rumored that Panasonic/TowerJazz was making the electronic internals/Sensors for the Leica SL/Q/M10. I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw 100% compatibility here across the board. It would REALLY be something.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    No need to worry, Leica already uses DFD on the SL. Just search for "DFD Leica SL" and you'll get hundreds of hits going back to the introduction of that camera.
    I searched for "DFD Leica SL" and could not find any relevant result saying that Leica SL uses DFD. Could you please list a URL or two? Thanks. (KEH.com is the only who mentions it, no idea where they got their information from; DPReview does not mention it at all)

    DFD is one part focus algorithm and one part lens data. AFAIK, lens data used to be stored in the camera, but now it can be stored in the lens. Hopefully, L-mount spec includes a transfer of DFD data between lens and camera as well.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    I searched for "DFD Leica SL" and could not find any relevant result saying that Leica SL uses DFD. Could you please list a URL or two? Thanks. (KEH.com is the only who mentions it, no idea where they got their information from; DPReview does not mention it at all)

    DFD is one part focus algorithm and one part lens data. AFAIK, lens data used to be stored in the camera, but now it can be stored in the lens. Hopefully, L-mount spec includes a transfer of DFD data between lens and camera as well.
    From http://en.leica-camera.com/Photograp...ica-SL/Details, under the "24 MP CMOS Sensor":

    "The Leica SL thanks the exceptional speed of its autofocus to Depth From Defocus (DFD) technology. In conventional, contrast-based AF, the focusing point is determined by a gradual, step-by-step approach. DFD enables the camera to determine the focusing point by the comparison of only two images with different depth of field. This avoids the need for time-consuming “hunting”, and the fine-tuning is then performed by the comparison of contrast values."
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by helged View Post
    From http://en.leica-camera.com/Photograp...ica-SL/Details, under the "24 MP CMOS Sensor":

    "The Leica SL thanks the exceptional speed of its autofocus to Depth From Defocus (DFD) technology. In conventional, contrast-based AF, the focusing point is determined by a gradual, step-by-step approach. DFD enables the camera to determine the focusing point by the comparison of only two images with different depth of field. This avoids the need for time-consuming “hunting”, and the fine-tuning is then performed by the comparison of contrast values."
    And thank you here as well :-)!

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by helged View Post
    From http://en.leica-camera.com/Photograp...ica-SL/Details, under the "24 MP CMOS Sensor":

    "The Leica SL thanks the exceptional speed of its autofocus to Depth From Defocus (DFD) technology. In conventional, contrast-based AF, the focusing point is determined by a gradual, step-by-step approach. DFD enables the camera to determine the focusing point by the comparison of only two images with different depth of field. This avoids the need for time-consuming “hunting”, and the fine-tuning is then performed by the comparison of contrast values."
    Thanks for sharing. I wonder if Panasonic will share this technology with Sigma as well. If so, then perhaps the L-Mount Alliance will be in a different place (compatibility wise) than Micro 4/3 Consortium ever esteemed to be. Interesting partnership for sure.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    If DFD is supported by all L-mount member's products then this marks a new way of cooperation that was not seen before

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    If DFD is supported by all L-mount member's products then this marks a new way of cooperation that was not seen before
    Yeah and at the very least you’ll know that Leica and Panasonic L lenses are 100% compatible... probably Sigma lenses too though.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    My approach to camera and lens 'appreciation' has always been user based - making photographs and looking at what I see and how things feel in the hand and what works for me and what doesn't. I say this as a prelude to what I am about to say regarding the Panasonic camera/lens entrance into 35mm land and what I think we can 'expect' to see as far as co-operation goes.

    I think that most user cases will see little difference between the performance of this or that lens offered by any of the participants for a given focal length and aperture. Does this mean that we can expect to see total co-operation between the companies? Well I think the answer to that will be yes and no.

    I think co-operation will see L mount lenses being able to be recognized and suitable basic in camera adjustments applied to lens corrections - these corrections it seems will be based on two levels of certification - a binary filter if you like. If a lens design meets all criteria for acceptance then I suspect that the highest possible set of in camera L mount compatibility can be expected if not then there will be less. It is interesting that the arbiter is designated to be Leica.

    There will also be differences in rendering at the raw and Jpeg level of output between the companies - this is an unavoidable outcome of the base line choices that each manufacturer will design into their read in read out algos and choice of processor architecture OS.

    There will also be less perceptible in most cases but obvious differences in lens performance in many cases - due to lens design - including lens coatings - something which isn't paid a lot of attention in general lens discussions.

    I would also be surprised if Panasonic's chip provides the microlens facility to make M lenses work well with their cameras - surprised and delighted I should say - so I don't expect to see this.

    Fascinating to see Panasonic/Leica at least ( who knows what Sigma will do) go with their chip which will be different to Sony/Nikon - which is different to Canon.

    the nearly 6M pixel EVF of the Panasonic might end up being the most important differentiation from my perspective - I can't wait to look through one of these and compare it to the SL - I hope other companies ( esp Fuji) take note of this development as once one gets used to a high quality EVF experience it is difficult to consider lesser resolutions as (for me) this is the #1 issue - how easy is it to visualise what i am going to get.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    When looking at specs, ergonomics and size, it's pretty clear to me who this camera is aimed at: D8xx and 5DS users. Never mind that the Canon and Nikon offer superior AF-C. If most owners of hi-res cameras are like me (former D810 user), they rarely use AF-C anyway, and Panasonic's AF-S is as fast and precise as any camera out there.

    DSLR users are used to big cameras, and for the intended use, the size and weight is not always a disadvantage. Sometimes, like when using heavy lenses, it can be an advantage. The ergonomics of the S1/R get very high scores from reviewers so far, and the slimmer body should give an even better grip than on the large DSLR bodies.

    Sony users won't change to this camera, and neither will Fuji users. However, the DSLR users are much more numerous, and therefore much more interesting to Panasonic. For me, I see a possible D810 replacement in this camera, should I choose to go big again.

    https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-ch...r-i/index.html
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    When looking at specs, ergonomics and size, it's pretty clear to me who this camera is aimed at: D8xx and 5DS users. Never mind that the Canon and Nikon offer superior AF-C. If most owners of hi-res cameras are like me (former D810 user), they rarely use AF-C anyway, and Panasonic's AF-S is as fast and precise as any camera out there.

    DSLR users are used to big cameras, and for the intended use, the size and weight is not always a disadvantage. Sometimes, like when using heavy lenses, it can be an advantage. The ergonomics of the S1/R get very high scores from reviewers so far, and the slimmer body should give an even better grip than on the large DSLR bodies.

    Sony users won't change to this camera, and neither will Fuji users. However, the DSLR users are much more numerous, and therefore much more interesting to Panasonic. For me, I see a possible D810 replacement in this camera, should I choose to go big again.

    I believe this camera is aimed more at existing Panasonic owners that want/need better lowlight performance and higher IQ than Micro 4/3 provides in some cases. According to Panasonic they’ve been wanting to go FF for some time now (but it wasn’t really time yet according to them). Then there’s the knowledge that Leica SL aid using DFD and you wonder just how much input Panasonic has in development and creation of that camera being that it’s the ONLY none Panasonic camera with DFD so far.

    As for AF-C, I think most Sony users live in this mode because that’s where you get your Eye AF. Personally, I used to be an AF-S shooter until I got the A7RII and saw how great it performed in continuous. I do believe that SOME users of various brands will be looking at the Panasonic’s for specific things like size, video, etc. Maybe not all but I’m sure some will be testing it out at the very least to see what the competition is offering. I’m saying that as someone that tested the Canon and Nikon to see how I felt about the cameras given all their claims.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I believe this camera is aimed more at existing Panasonic owners that want/need better lowlight performance and higher IQ than Micro 4/3 provides in some cases. According to Panasonic they’ve been wanting to go FF for some time now (but it wasn’t really time yet according to them). Then there’s the knowledge that Leica SL aid using DFD and you wonder just how much input Panasonic has in development and creation of that camera being that it’s the ONLY none Panasonic camera with DFD so far.

    As for AF-C, I think most Sony users live in this mode because that’s where you get your Eye AF. Personally, I used to be an AF-S shooter until I got the A7RII and saw how great it performed in continuous. I do believe that SOME users of various brands will be looking at the Panasonic’s for specific things like size, video, etc. Maybe not all but I’m sure some will be testing it out at the very least to see what the competition is offering. I’m saying that as someone that tested the Canon and Nikon to see how I felt about the cameras given all their claims.
    We'll see who will bite. Many Panasonic users, like myself, will obviously be interested, and since Panasonic, lenses as well as cameras, was never cheap, they'll probably pay the price.

    What you mention about Sony and AF-C is interesting, and it confirms my suspicion that photographers' preference with regards to focusing mode is often influenced by the camera they use. With Panasonic's hi-end cameras and lenses (including some lenses from Olympus), AF-S is more or less instant. I have often found myself just jamming the shutter release through, and as by magic, the AF managed to produce a sharp image, even if that was not what I saw in the viewfinder.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I have often found myself just jamming the shutter release through, and as by magic, the AF managed to produce a sharp image, even if that was not what I saw in the viewfinder.
    If you configure your shutter to only release once focus is acquired, that is expected

    On your other note: If a Panasonic m43 wants Full Frame, i.e. better whatever, the Panasonic FF system is as hard a switch as to other systems, if it comes to lenses. OK - Flashes can be reused and the UI is probably the same.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Yeah and at the very least you’ll know that Leica and Panasonic L lenses are 100% compatible... probably Sigma lenses too though.
    What does the label "LEICA Certified" exactly mean? Especially what can we expect if it is absent?

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon42 View Post
    What does the label "LEICA Certified" exactly mean? Especially what can we expect if it is absent?
    It means someone has paid Leica a licensing fee.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon42 View Post
    What does the label "LEICA Certified" exactly mean? Especially what can we expect if it is absent?
    It likely means the same thing as the Panasonic Leica lenses. Panasonic makes the lens design and Leica “approves” their name being used on the lens. In my estimation Panasonic releasing “Leica” lenses would likely confuse SOME people so I assume Panasonic came up with the “LUMIX S Pro” to perform the same function to justify premium pricing (and Leica Certified marketing) for their best lenses.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    We'll see who will bite. Many Panasonic users, like myself, will obviously be interested, and since Panasonic, lenses as well as cameras, was never cheap, they'll probably pay the price.

    What you mention about Sony and AF-C is interesting, and it confirms my suspicion that photographers' preference with regards to focusing mode is often influenced by the camera they use. With Panasonic's hi-end cameras and lenses (including some lenses from Olympus), AF-S is more or less instant. I have often found myself just jamming the shutter release through, and as by magic, the AF managed to produce a sharp image, even if that was not what I saw in the viewfinder.
    I don’t mean to imply that SOME Sony users aren’t using single point/flexible point AF... I’m sure some are. I just meant the continuous AF and tracking on sony is already excellent and it’s something that Panasonic Micro 4/3 owners that went to Sony for FF will also likely expect if they were to go all out on LUMIX S.

    Panasonic reps in some interviews (and a local Canon rep I talked to the first time I tested the EOS R) openly admit they’re trying to convince that demographic to “come back home.” I don’t doubt they’ll get some people but I also think the performance needs to be such that people don’t notice the AF speed/accuracy difference for them to be successful.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    It means someone has paid Leica a licensing fee.
    I suspect everyone is paying Leica a L-Mount licensing fee which would likely account for the higher body pricing compared to direct competition.
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    Senior Member jdphoto's Avatar
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Don't let the engineers for Nikon's Z's read the specs for the S1's. This is what the Z should have been for a camera, imo.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 1 Week Ago at 11:59.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    If DFD is supported by all L-mount member's products then this marks a new way of cooperation that was not seen before
    I guess this answers the question to compatibility. Leica is releasing a new firmware to add Panasonic lens compatibility.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I suspect everyone is paying Leica a L-Mount licensing fee which would likely account for the higher body pricing compared to direct competition.
    The higher price is more than covered by the much more expensive viewfinder, sturdier body, better video performance, and extra card slot. Canon, Nikon and Sony would also charge more if they offered those features.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    It likely means the same thing as the Panasonic Leica lenses. Panasonic makes the lens design and Leica “approves” their name being used on the lens. In my estimation Panasonic releasing “Leica” lenses would likely confuse SOME people so I assume Panasonic came up with the “LUMIX S Pro” to perform the same function to justify premium pricing (and Leica Certified marketing) for their best lenses.
    I am no more privy to the details of the Panasonic/Leica commercial agreements than anyone else here, but it sounds that Leica defined a minimum criteria that 4/3 lenses have to meet in order to wear the Leica badge.
    Panasonic can't use Leica branding on L-mount lenses (because it would be confusing, as you rightly point-out), but they still want to tell customers which lenses meet the stricter criteria.

    That's one of the immediate benefits of the L-mount alliance to Leica users. You still get to choose from some of the very best optics around, but now you can also buy decent mid-range lenses for times when you don't want to bring your $5,000 zoom to the beach.

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    I am no more privy to the details of the Panasonic/Leica commercial agreements than anyone else here, but it sounds that Leica defined a minimum criteria that 4/3 lenses have to meet in order to wear the Leica badge.
    Panasonic can't use Leica branding on L-mount lenses (because it would be confusing, as you rightly point-out), but they still want to tell customers which lenses meet the stricter criteria.

    That's one of the immediate benefits of the L-mount alliance to Leica users. You still get to choose from some of the very best optics around, but now you can also buy decent mid-range lenses for times when you don't want to bring your $5,000 zoom to the beach.
    I don’t think the Lumix S Pro are intended to be mid-range but rather premium “professional” lenses (optically speaking) on par with Canon L, Sony GM/Zeiss, or Sigma Art/Sport lenses. While I understand the marketing of the Panasonic Leica, Leica S Pro, Sony Zeiss, etc. I don’t know that any of them are necessary as many of the Japanese brands have proven that they can stand on their own optical prowess at this point.
    Last edited by iiiNelson; 1 Week Ago at 08:53.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    I am curious as to how Leica R Rom lenses will work in the Lumix L world.
    Will the “f” be coupled?
    Paul

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I don’t know that any of them are necessary as many of the Japanese brands have proven that they can stand on their own optical prowess at this point.
    They certainly can, but they all offer multiple tiers of lenses. What Panasonic implied is that they are using criteria that they developed with Leica (or that was developed by Leica) to determine which lenses are worthy of the top tier.

    Canon also has criteria that a lens has to meet to get an "L" designation.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    They certainly can, but they all offer multiple tiers of lenses. What Panasonic implied is that they are using criteria that they developed with Leica (or that was developed by Leica) to determine which lenses are worthy of the top tier.

    Canon also has criteria that a lens has to meet to get an "L" designation.
    Yeah I understand that and my comment was specifically in reference to the “certified by Leica” messaging on the boxes, the Zeiss branded Sony lenses, Hasselblad branded Fuji lenses, or the Leica branded Panasonic lenses. I completely agree they have a right to and need for establishing standards to differentiate between their standard and “pro” lenses... I just am not sure they need and external source to validate their own technical expertise in lens making at this point. I believe Japanese brands like Fuji, Panasonic, Sigma, Olympus, Sony, Tamron, Cosina, etc. can stand on their on laurels at this point because they’ve all proven that they’re as capable as the German companies in making premium optics.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by camping View Post
    I am curious as to how Leica R Rom lenses will work in the Lumix L world.
    Will the “f” be coupled?
    Paul
    It would be interesting if an Apo-Modul Telyt R f5.6/800mm with 2x Apo-Extender will work together with the IBIS.
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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    It would be interesting if an Apo-Modul Telyt R f5.6/800mm with 2x Apo-Extender will work together with the IBIS.
    You can shoot this moloch hand-held ?

    Bart ...

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    Re: Panasonic S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    You can shoot this moloch hand-held ?

    No way!
    But on a tripod or monopod a stabilized EVF view for manual focusing would be awsome!
    With Sony longest focal length which can be selected manualy is only 1000mm
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