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Panasonic S1

bensonga

Well-known member
The S1 is not just getting any love. :confused:

I remember when 24mp was thought to be the "sweet spot" for FF sensors.

Gary
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The S1 is not just getting any love. :confused:

I remember when 24mp was thought to be the "sweet spot" for FF sensors.

Gary
It looks like camera manufacturers are giving people the choice to be happy with the sweet spot or to have access to higher resolution if they require it- Sony started this strategy and everyone now is copying - a good thing I think.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
I agree Peter that having a choice between a ~24mp and higher resolution version is a great choice to have. That's why I own both the A7II and the A7rII cameras.

I've just noticed that the 24mp cameras often get short shrift, less attention and "love" in reviews and comments when released at the same time as their higher resolution sibling.

It would be great if Leica could have both a less expensive 24mp and higher cost 40+mp version of the SL in the future, but that is probably asking too much.

Gary
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I agree Peter that having a choice between a ~24mp and higher resolution version is a great choice to have. That's why I own both the A7II and the A7rII cameras.

I've just noticed that the 24mp cameras often get short shrift, less attention and "love" in reviews and comments when released at the same time as their higher resolution sibling.

It would be great if Leica could have both a less expensive 24mp and higher cost 40+mp version of the SL in the future, but that is probably asking too much.

Gary
The current 4 yr old and still better than anything else out there at 24MP SL is worth looking at if you have any interest in L mount or M mount shooting. I wont be selling mine to switch into a newer 24MP camera -no point for my very simple needs at that MP range. I will be deciding between the new SL2 at 50MP or keeping the FujiGFX for 50MP - my decision as far as 100MP is already made with the soon to be released Fuji 100MP mirrorless camera. Both 50 and 100MP cameras are not about using the native aspect ratio of the chips they come in - it is about my ability to extract a 25 ( from 50) and 50 from 100MP - XPan aspect ratio. 50MP is plenty enough to print in meters in the aspect ratio I use.
 

Bernard

Member
The S1 is not just getting any love. :confused:
It's getting love from the video crowd, but not as much from the photo geeks.

It will probably get the most love from paying customers too. If it's anything like Sony, the 24MP camera will outsell the 40+ MP camera by a wide margin.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
The specs are impressive. I personally think 24mp is more than enough for today's lenses. The S1/R have most of the features I want like two cards and robust weather sealing. I'm not much into video, but having those options is nice. Although, the Af specs do seem impressive, the use of contrast AF w/DFD, might make this less useful if adapting "M" lenses, but maybe I'm wrong. The Nikon Z is by far the best camera i've used for my work and the ability to use my M 50 Lux with phase off the sensor is remarkable. Zoom and peaking are the most accurate way to get good MF with fast lenses. I also shoot with a D810 because of the ability to back up my images in camera, but I would prefer to use just one camera with the extra back up capability and keep a Z6/Z7 as a back up camera. Lumix lens line up at launch is equally as impressive.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The specs are impressive. I personally think 24mp is more than enough for today's lenses. The S1/R have most of the features I want like two cards and robust weather sealing. I'm not much into video, but having those options is nice. Although, the Af specs do seem impressive, the use of contrast AF w/DFD, might make this less useful if adapting "M" lenses, but maybe I'm wrong. The Nikon Z is by far the best camera i've used for my work and the ability to use my M 50 Lux with phase off the sensor is remarkable. Zoom and peaking are the most accurate way to get good MF with fast lenses. I also shoot with a D810 because of the ability to back up my images in camera, but I would prefer to use just one camera with the extra back up capability and keep a Z6/Z7 as a back up camera. Lumix lens line up at launch is equally as impressive.
The Leica SL also uses contrast detect with DFD technology. By most accounts, most Leica M users believe this to be the second best option for M lenses. PDAF helps with focus acquisition speed and tracking and contrast detect helps with accuracy. Most Mirrorless cameras use a combination of both and by most accounts the best implementations are Canon’s Dual Pixel and Sony’s 4D Hybrid AF when it comes to tracking in Mirrorless cameras.

Most reviews are stating that the S1/S1R are the best CDAF based systems they’ve seen (even in pre-production firmware) but that they’d still like to see where it can go in the future. Perhaps Panasonic has it right and they can get the algorithms to a point to where performance is negligible in actual shooting... or perhaps they will go as far as they can and find a way to include PDAF without taking the theoretical IQ hits that can happen in extreme situations.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
The Leica SL also uses contrast detect with DFD technology. By most accounts, most Leica M users believe this to be the second best option for M lenses. PDAF helps with focus acquisition speed and tracking and contrast detect helps with accuracy. Most Mirrorless cameras use a combination of both and by most accounts the best implementations are Canon’s Dual Pixel and Sony’s 4D Hybrid AF when it comes to tracking in Mirrorless cameras.

Most reviews are stating that the S1/S1R are the best CDAF based systems they’ve seen (even in pre-production firmware) but that they’d still like to see where it can go in the future. Perhaps Panasonic has it right and they can get the algorithms to a point to where performance is negligible in actual shooting... or perhaps they will go as far as they can and find a way to include PDAF without taking the theoretical IQ hits that can happen in extreme situations.
Good points. I'm assuming you mean banding in regards to IQ hits in extreme situations? This is promising tech for sure. I also imagine that all mirrorless can zoom in the EVF for MF lenses. The specs on the Limix EVF are considerably better than the Z7 too.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Good points. I'm assuming you mean banding in regards to IQ hits in extreme situations? This is promising tech for sure. I also imagine that all mirrorless can zoom in the EVF for MF lenses. The specs on the Limix EVF are considerably better than the Z7 too.
Yes banding can occur in extreme situation but I’m talking specifically about the “rainbows” that can occur where you see the OSPDAF points in extreme cases. Doesn’t happen often but it can happen.

I dont know a camera on the market that can’t zoom in for MF assist. They all have done that for the better part of the last 10 years. What’s interesting is that the LUMIX S has a picture in picture box that shows the desired area to obtain critical sharpness while maintaining the overall composition for the user to see. I’m not sure if I like it better or not but it seems to be a great alternative way to do the same job.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
What are the advantages/disadvantages to using contrast detect w/DFD of the S1/S1r vs phase detect of the Z7? Do only Panasonic lenses work with DFD, considering it's using a database to make adjustments such a bokeh, micro contrast etc?
 

ggibson

Well-known member
Are you referring to PDAF striping? See this sample from the A7III and look at the woman's face at 100%:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/6769434587/sony-a7-iii-sample-photos/5655951041

This is a pretty rare occurrence according to DPReview, take a look at their followup:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6974141509/sony-striping-heres-the-fix

For DFD, I think the biggest downside is that contrast-detect AF is still relying on moving slightly past the optimal focal point, and then tracking back to hit the target. Now from what I've seen, the S1 does this very quickly, so it still can track moving objects pretty well for stills photography. Although it is possible to see this focus in-out when tracking a subject in video, it's extremely subtle IMO so only very discerning (pro?) videographers may feel it unsuitable (manual focus pull may be preferred anyways though).

Compatibility could be another downside of DFD, I think there is a "profile" built into the lens that the camera reads. Adapting DSLR lenses will just use contrast-detect (assuming AF adapters will be released), as opposed to Sony's system which can use PDAF with adapted lenses. Within the system, presumably it should all be compatible though. Since Leica is using DFD, their lenses should work with it on the S1. We'll have to wait to see about Sigma's lenses and cameras.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
What are the advantages/disadvantages to using contrast detect w/DFD of the S1/S1r vs phase detect of the Z7? Do only Panasonic lenses work with DFD, considering it's using a database to make adjustments such a bokeh, micro contrast etc?
The biggest advantage is accuracy and the biggest disadvantage is focus acquisition speed. From the videos I’ve seen this will likely not be an issue in photography but there’s still some ways to go to match what Sony and Canon are doing with their hybrid focus systems IMO. I will say that this is the best implementation of DFD by far and it seems to be largely negligible as it applies to performance differences in everything but continuous focus.

Personally I wouldnt adapt DSLR lenses to this system but there are autofocus adapters coming soon. I believe there’s a huge benefit to choosing native Panasonic lenses that are near parfocal if hybrid shooting is a priority.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The newest firmware tracks a lot better than in the past in continuous focus and seems to be a mostly negligible issue now for most based on some of the more recent videos with Firmware 1.0.

https://youtu.be/ONhsUIu6w_I

It would seem that some people in some territories are beginning to get them into their hands now. I imagine that they'll begin shipping out in CONUS within the next two weeks so I'm looking forward to seeing the results in the coming weeks and months. I'm unlikely to be an early adopter and I'd need to run them alongside my primary Sony system to see the differences before committing full-on (as I usually do when/if changing systems). There's a good chance that I may add an S1 and kit lens to start with to test for a minimum of 3-6 months unless I REALLY don't like it. The local camera store stopped carrying Panasonic last year though (because it wasn't really moving the way they liked) so I'll likely have to buy sight unseen if I invest into the system which is somewhat different and new for me.
 
I'm unlikely to be an early adopter and I'd need to run them alongside my primary Sony system to see the differences before committing full-on (as I usually do when/if changing systems). There's a good chance that I may add an S1 and kit lens to start with to test for a minimum of 3-6 months unless I REALLY don't like it.
What are the compelling features of the Panasonic that are leading you to consider shifting from the Sony?
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
What are the compelling features of the Panasonic that are leading you to consider shifting from the Sony?
Keep in mind all of the factors I’m about to mention are 100% subjective.

The biggest issue is actually the desire for a larger sized body. I’ve wanted the option in a Sony body for years for when I use larger lenses. I also like that the lenses are being designed to be near parfocal for FF sensors since I’ve been looking into doing more video this year.

Nothing is technically wromg with Sony and it’s a great system. The purpose of running both side by side is specifically is to see if performance is significant lower than Sony - because at the end of the day a camera can have “perfect” ergonomics but if it doesn’t work for your workflow then it’s not a real option IMO. I strongly and seriously considered the Fuji X system last year but it wasn’t a suitable replacement for me. Perhaps the Panasonic will be and I already have experience with Panasonic in the past. I can trust the quality of their products. I can say the same for Sony. Canon worked fine too but they’re out of touch for my own personal needs. Nikon isn’t an option for me.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
A great review of the S1 by Steve Huff

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/...a-review-the-best-i-have-seen-this-year-2019/

I must say it also ticks a lot of my boxes - especially handling and adaptability of M lenses :thumbs:
He seems to echo what a lot of other reviews have said IMO (which isn’t a criticism but a conformation) that the LUMIX S bodies are outstanding cameras. I’d be interested to see if they can get DFD fast enough to develop/release a direct A9 competitor in time for the 2020 Olympics. That will be the day nearly all reservations flee from the direction Panasonic is going by sticking to CDAF/DFD instead of PDAF.
 
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