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Thread: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

  1. #51
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

    I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

    EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.
    Itís as said above. I wouldnít mind if Sony made a larger body to balance their pro lenses in the Sony Zeiss and GM lines better.

    I use the grips almost always because I feel like theyíre a ďrequirementĒ to be comfortable with heavier lenses. The EVF is sweet too but Iíve never really had an issue with any of Sonyís EVF in my existing cameras or the newer ones. I can and do switch between EVF, OVF, and ground glass on a semi-normal basis without issues.

    I have zero issues with Sonyís performance and IQ, the ergonomics are more of a ďnice to haveĒ for me as Iím on the larger size for humans, and I also wouldnít mind having more in camera cropping options than 3:2 and 16:9 for framing. I know there are workarounds like buying an external monitor and using the framing on the external monitor but it should just be a simple enough option to add. The Panasonic seems to achieve something of a wish list for me outside of maybe the AF system... mainly because I donít think any camera is beating the A9 on the market. The other less important thing but itís an aesthetic factor is that Iíve always hated that there are lenses for Sony in houses in white exteriors (petty I know). I just do and wish it werenít the case.

    So in short i still use my Panasonic G1... never had an issue with it but itís more or less ďunusableĒ above ISO 1600. Iíve always liked Panasonic cameras. Iíve always got on well with them personally and I do have more confidence in their camera making than I would with Canon or Nikon. Iíd say the same for Sony and Fuji as well. I still havenít ruled out Fuji as a possibility for me but Iíd prefer an updated XH2 even though I believe the XT3 is an extremely good camera. GFX 50S does most of what Iíd expect from it and the possibility to have the 100S without need for any Pixel Shifting for more resolution than I need most of the time is something Iím still keeping an eye on. Any switches for me will more likely happen in the 2nd half of 2019 or later - if it happens at all. Wedding season is coming up and unless Iím going to run a Panasonic alongside the Sony to get real testing in I would never dump the proven Sony system in the middle of wedding/portrait season. That would just be irresponsible for me to do.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many Ä in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

    This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

    Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

    So I would ask to finally stop comparing and MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

    Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!
    I will say this only because many users of the GFX are concurrently running Micro 4/3, APS-C, and FF systems along side their MFD. They do have some valid points and the GFX 50S is roughly the same size as a 5D IV. If a person is using L glass or Sigma Art/Sports lenses than the sizes are pretty much negligible too.

    I agree that in general, the fastest FF Cameras will focus faster than MFD but perhaps the difference in practical terms will be negligible when you consider that the L-Mount cameras are using CDAF based systems and the newest versions will incorporate hybrid CDAF/OSPDAF systems. Also when you factor in lens prices you may arrive at a very similar system price so it is worth considering/discussing IMO based on where Panasonic has prices their camera/lenses. I donít think the prices are out of line... I just donít think anyone expect Fuji to be this aggressive in pricing. People were rejoicing at a sub-$10k Hasselblad at Photokina 2016 only to realize Fuji put out a sub-$6,500 MFD then followed that with a sub-$4,500 body. Now we are looking at a sub-$10k flagship from Fuji with resolution that was $30k+ just to approach.

    Back to the topic though. Iím hoping I can receive a demo/review copy of both Panasonic bodies because Iíd like one of each of it was the direction that I chose to move in but I will still keep an eye on what Sony is doing because theyíve been too quiet. That could mean they donít have anything but more than likely it means theyíll get most of the chatter re-directed back on their cameras soon.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Peter

    I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

    You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

    Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

    LouisB

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Peter

    I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

    You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

    Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

    LouisB
    Louis,

    sorry I did not want to offend you - and you are very right with that pricing issue!

    But based on all my experience I would never ever compare MF with FF. And while Fuji seems to be on the right track currently I am not sure where all this will (can) lead in a few years from now. But maybe we have to see it from that side that Fuji is changing the market (pricing) - hopefully at least!

    Thanks for your reply anyway - and I have similar thoughts about that EM1X ....

    Peter
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Peter

    I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

    You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

    Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

    LouisB
    Regarding FF v. Cropped Sensors v. MFD... of a person can ONLY have one there’s an argument that FF provides the best balance of performance to size ratio. There are always exceptions to the rule because I feel the XT3 comes close enough to the average FF camera while not quite getting to the same level IQ wise as the class leading models but the same can be said for the best FF cameras approaching the IQ of the entry level MFD but being a ways off from the class leading models. The entry level MFD are still “better” in general like the same can be said for the lower end FF when compared to the best cropped sensors... but how much any of it matters is subjective to the user. Really thats all i have to say on the matter and any of the cameras can make great images sonits up to the end user to determine what short comings existing gear has that they cant easily work around and make a decision from there.

    If I’m being completely honest there is nothing my existing gear can’t do photographically that I’ve asked it to do. What I’m in search of are subjective things not found on the spec sheets without giving up all the things I’ve come to expect from the spec sheet that makes my existing cameras great. Until that whole package comes together I see no real compelling reason to completely dump what I own without the replacement living alongside the workhorse. It’s why I haven’t invested in generation 3 Sony bodies - I’m not sure of their direction once additional competition rolls in. I’d like to believe they’ll stay the innovative course but I’m unsure they will. I hope they don’t become complacent in a way that Canon and Nikon appeared to the last 5-10 years. That would be a deal breaker for me personally. It was the process I used when I switched from Canon to Micro 4/3 (was an easy process for me because photography was purely hobby) and from Leica to Sony (was a bit harder because I loved the M9 but the Sony is infinitely more versatile when comparing features/ability). If I were to go to the Fuji or Panasonic route (assuming the next Sony announcements don’t make me forget they exist) they’d have to live alongside and run with the Sony through wedding and portrait season and prove themselves week in and week out. Simple as that. I’m undecided on anything but definitely curious as I have some personal projects building, some professional work for my wife and I growing, family life, school, etc. to keep me busy.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Isnít it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
    has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

    I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

    Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.
    yes 32-64 my mistake

    I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

    Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway!
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    yes 32-64 my mistake

    I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

    Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway!

    Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldnít handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

    BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ľ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. Thatís the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. :
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldnít handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

    BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ľ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. Thatís the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. :
    I must say I do look forward to shutterless shutters - I too like quiet.
    Yes the 100 will b every very 'interesting' and then the 150 no doubt...
    Pete

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
    As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
    The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
    Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
    Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
    And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.
    Last edited by Paratom; 5th February 2019 at 03:34.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
    As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
    The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
    Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
    Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
    And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.
    Thereís a good chance Sigma will be the one to bring high quality APS-C lenses to the L-Mount. Time will tell but unless itís an immediate need I wouldnít make any hasty switches... though you could do a lot worse than the Fuji Cameras.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
    When I read such comments this cartoon always comes to my mind:



    My Pics
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    just for fun ...

    Bart ...

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    More on relative size comparisons....

    https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-s...th-sony-canon/

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    More on relative size comparisons....

    https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-s...th-sony-canon/
    I think itís this comparison that makes me feel that the S1 isnít THAT large (by standards of DSLRís). Maybe D500 size without the thickness.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Updated AF test (though with beta software).

    https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    New video on the LUMIX S Pro 50/1.4 lens.

    https://youtu.be/lwOlbaEVbh8
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Hands-on test by B&H Photo. In the video they use it with the Panasonic lenses, Leica SL lenses, and a Leica M lens.

    https://youtu.be/tbLcTUBnMaw
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Hands-on test by B&H Photo. In the video they use it with the Panasonic lenses, Leica SL lenses, and a Leica M lens.

    https://youtu.be/tbLcTUBnMaw
    Just another stunning review IMHO!

    I see this camera (system) as what I might finally end up after I made my mind up about what FF mirrorless to go. One of the most appealing things for me is the native support of Leica lenses (M and SL).

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Just another stunning review IMHO!

    I see this camera (system) as what I might finally end up after I made my mind up about what FF mirrorless to go. One of the most appealing things for me is the native support of Leica lenses (M and SL).
    Yeah it looks good but Iím still hesitant about it until I actually get one to test out and try for myself. I like so much about it of the surface (great lenses, great high ISO, seemingly great body design, etc.) but Iím really concerned that most reviews/previews/hands-on test consistently mention theyíd like to see PDAF added in a future camera and that continuous AF doesnít work as well as single point. This is the same concern that I have with the Micro 4/3 cameras and I donít know how much future firmware can/will improve it.

    Regarding Leica M lenses... Iím almost certain Panasonic is doing the ďheaviest liftingĒ for the Leica SL so they may know how the sensor needs to be designed to work with M glass... but Iím not sure that itíll be superior to L-Mount glass to begin with.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Yeah it looks good but Iím still hesitant about it until I actually get one to test out and try for myself. I like so much about it of the surface (great lenses, great high ISO, seemingly great body design, etc.) but Iím really concerned that most reviews/previews/hands-on test consistently mention theyíd like to see PDAF added in a future camera and that continuous AF doesnít work as well as single point. This is the same concern that I have with the Micro 4/3 cameras and I donít know how much future firmware can/will improve it.

    Regarding Leica M lenses... Iím almost certain Panasonic is doing the ďheaviest liftingĒ for the Leica SL so they may know how the sensor needs to be designed to work with M glass... but Iím not sure that itíll be superior to L-Mount glass to begin with.
    Agree with the concerns about AF.

    WRT M lenses - the M will always be the best camera for using M glass as it is natively designed for that purpose

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Agree with the concerns about AF.

    WRT M lenses - the M will always be the best camera for using M glass as it is natively designed for that purpose
    I donít disagree with you but there are non-Leica M lenses that work reasonably well with most cameras too. In any case I dumped most of my M-mount lenses years ago so itís really not the biggest concern for me personally. I believe the L-Mount glass will likely surpass the M glass optically but at the expense of size.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I believe the L-Mount glass will likely surpass the M glass optically but at the expense of size.
    I am almost 100% sure of that

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Ted Forbesí latest take on the LUMIX S from his podcast. Sort of lengthy but great info and insight based on a Panasonic event over the weekend.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=1000430575104

    Iím not sure the podcast is available to Android users but someone can check.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Sigma announced their set of Art series primes and their MC-21 lens adapter.

    https://www.l-rumors.com/sigma-annou...nt-art-lenses/

    The lens I hoped theyíd convert is the 24-35/2. Seems like a great general purpose zoom.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    What you think about the user interface. To me it looks a little overloaded with buttons.
    I hope Leica is coming out with an anoouncement of the SLII soon to be able to compare before jumping on a new body.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    What you think about the user interface. To me it looks a little overloaded with buttons.
    I hope Leica is coming out with an anoouncement of the SLII soon to be able to compare before jumping on a new body.
    Personally, I think the button layout (and the body in general) is close to perfect and I find the SL to be a little to spartan for me. I understand how/why some love the SL layout but it’s a bit too simplistic for me for what I’m used to. I like simple in the M but I think this is close to ideal to me for a “workhorse”
    camera.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    One general opinion is building up for me - based on several different reviews and videos about these cameras and lenses (to be expected):

    This is getting a pretty large and heavy system!

    This has nothing to do with quality in any respect that could be expected, but for me, as a non professional user (and I think there are many other non professional users out there) this system is getting far too much and heavy and large - at least for my purposes. I cannot see myself carrying a S1/S1R with a 1.4/50 and even a 4/70-200 around on vacation or somewhere in a city and for studio alone I would rent such equipment. Actually this seems to be so large and heavy that even MFD - looking at you Fuji - is not much heavier and larger if at all.

    What I want to say, it is slowly turning out that this type of system is not for me simply because of size and weight, as are many other newly released FF mirrorless systems as well - with the exception of Nikon. So I have great hopes in what Nikon brings around their Z-mount in the coming years and as a second option Fuji X-system is getting more interesting again - as maybe the one and only system I would need.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    One general opinion is building up for me - based on several different reviews and videos about these cameras and lenses (to be expected):

    This is getting a pretty large and heavy system!

    This has nothing to do with quality in any respect that could be expected, but for me, as a non professional user (and I think there are many other non professional users out there) this system is getting far too much and heavy and large - at least for my purposes. I cannot see myself carrying a S1/S1R with a 1.4/50 and even a 4/70-200 around on vacation or somewhere in a city and for studio alone I would rent such equipment. Actually this seems to be so large and heavy that even MFD - looking at you Fuji - is not much heavier and larger if at all.

    What I want to say, it is slowly turning out that this type of system is not for me simply because of size and weight, as are many other newly released FF mirrorless systems as well - with the exception of Nikon. So I have great hopes in what Nikon brings around their Z-mount in the coming years and as a second option Fuji X-system is getting more interesting again - as maybe the one and only system I would need.
    Well I’ll say this. Looking at the announced lenses and the body alone the camera does appear to be large. When you look at it next to a G9 then it’s only slightly larger until to factor in the lens sizes. I think that is where Panasonic is accounting in increasing size to balance ergonomics with fast lenses. If a person is going to stick with f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms or slower then the smaller size of the Sony (sans grip) or the Nikon are fine. If a person wants f/1.4 or faster primes and f/2.8 or faster zooms then the Panasonic, Canon, or Sony with grip makes a lot of sense IMO. If a person is concerned about size I’d still argue the Fuji X might be the best of all worlds (balance of size, native lens options, speed) but make no mistake - despite Nikon’s claim of having great ergonomics the Z is nearly the same size as the Sony (my pinky and partner of my ring finger hang off) and the grip isn’t all that different in hand for me... plus their native lenses are larger compared to other lenses with the same apertures (for instance compare their 50/1.8 to the Sony 55/1.8) on account of having a larger mount.

    The Fuji GFX 50S is pretty balanced and light. Looking solely at mass doesn’t tell the whole story and Ted Forbes touched on this in his recent LUMIX S impressions where he felt the Panasonic was much lighter than the Leica SL due to ergonomic design. Outside of the 110/2, the GFX the lenses are medium speed or slow apertures to balance the size to the body. I’m not making the decision for you but I’d wait until you can try them all for yourself next to each other and there’s a good chance we will see cheaper and slower native primes down the line too. What I’ve noticed in the last 5 years or so is that high resolving sensors require larger lenses to get the performance wanted.

    The Panasonic 50/1.4 is about the size of the 55/1.4 Otus lens but with AF... perhaps we will see f/2 primes released that’ll be cheaper than the Leica ones but this is an expensive system designed for pro use from the ground up. For casual use and travel your Olympus seems to be up to the challenge and also lacks the size. Maybe just love what you have.

    Ted Forbes hands-on impressions

    https://youtu.be/F3jv_6Ahyb8
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Well Iíll say this. Looking at the announced lenses and the body alone the camera does appear to be large. When you look at it next to a G9 then itís only slightly larger until to factor in the lens sizes. I think that is where Panasonic is accounting in increasing size to balance ergonomics with fast lenses. If a person is going to stick with f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms or slower then the smaller size of the Sony (sans grip) or the Nikon are fine. If a person wants f/1.4 or faster primes and f/2.8 or faster zooms then the Panasonic, Canon, or Sony with grip makes a lot of sense IMO. If a person is concerned about size Iíd still argue the Fuji X might be the best of all worlds (balance of size, native lens options, speed) but make no mistake - despite Nikonís claim of having great ergonomics the Z is nearly the same size as the Sony (my pinky and partner of my ring finger hang off) and the grip isnít all that different in hand for me... plus their native lenses are larger compared to other lenses with the same apertures (for instance compare their 50/1.8 to the Sony 55/1.8) on account of having a larger mount.

    The Fuji GFX 50S is pretty balanced and light. Looking solely at mass doesnít tell the whole story and Ted Forbes touched on this in his recent LUMIX S impressions where he felt the Panasonic was much lighter than the Leica SL due to ergonomic design. Outside of the 110/2, the GFX the lenses are medium speed or slow apertures to balance the size to the body. Iím not making the decision for you but Iíd wait until you can try them all for yourself next to each other and thereís a good chance we will see cheaper and slower native primes down the line too. What Iíve noticed in the last 5 years or so is that high resolving sensors require larger lenses to get the performance wanted.

    The Panasonic 50/1.4 is about the size of the 55/1.4 Otus lens but with AF... perhaps we will see f/2 primes released thatíll be cheaper than the Leica ones but this is an expensive system designed for pro use from the ground up. For casual use and travel your Olympus seems to be up to the challenge and also lacks the size. Maybe just love what you have.

    Ted Forbes hands-on impressions

    https://youtu.be/F3jv_6Ahyb8
    I hear you and I also want to really love this system, as when ignoring weight and size all seems to be pretty perfect. Only I can no more see myself schlepping such heavy and large gear around for general photography. I do this mainly for fun now and to have some personal memories, but no more for selling photos or impressing clients.

    For me the Z-system looks much more suitable and I guess also the most new S-lenses are shape-friendlier for my eyes - especially that new 2.8/24-70. We will see how that continues as soon as some Z Pro bodies are released.

    Anyway I do not find that any FF mirrorless system brings much advantage to my type of photography and I cannot stop thinking that the Fuji X system would (again) be the best fit for me WRT size, weight, lens choices, functionality also and foremost video and finally price. I am no longer up to spending 5k on a camera body and one prime lens if I can have comparable quality and results for me with much less money.

    And WRT m43 (Olympus) - I love that system but meanwhile I miss my Fuji X-system so much that I think I would overall be much happier with Fuji. Especially as soon as the X-H2 will arrive. Maybe then it is time to call it a day and jump ships. Although I fear that prices for used Olympus will further go down so I might still keep all I have and just ADD Fuji. Or maybe FF mirrorless, but from the current perspective FF mirrorless gets more unattractive every day/week, whereas Fuji X gets VERY attractive

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
    I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
    On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
    And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

    I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
    I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
    On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
    And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

    I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.
    Maybe I will only need just one high speed lens. Maybe for the Z-system that could be the 1.2/50. And the rest just zooms, either 4 or 2.8.

    What I really would need would be a native 80-400 or similar. Maybe the first vendor who brings such a lens (except Sony) would determine my future FF mirrorless system, it is as easy

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe I will only need just one high speed lens. Maybe for the Z-system that could be the 1.2/50. And the rest just zooms, either 4 or 2.8.

    What I really would need would be a native 80-400 or similar. Maybe the first vendor who brings such a lens (except Sony) would determine my future FF mirrorless system, it is as easy
    Well thatís where I say Fuji makes a lot of sense for the non-professional that wants to get in the ballpark. Video and photo features are there with the XT3. IBIS will be there in the XH bodies of you need it but it likely wonít come until 2020. The lens lineup is already there and thereís no need to wait around. For the amateur or hobbyist - the S1 with the 24-105 and 70-200 will do most of what most people need... the Fuji 16-55 and 50-140 accomplishes the same things for about half the price and comparable depth of field.

    The new Nikon Z 24-70/2.8 has a 82mm filter thread so itís largely the same size as pro DSLR/Mirrorless lenses with worse ergonomics since thereís no vertical battery grip announced for the current bodies... Iím not sure that gets you where you want to go size wise since itís a concern. Olympus is going to lose value if you donít sell but you canít get the focal length equivalents in any other system for being that small if thatís a priority.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Well thatís where I say Fuji makes a lot of sense for the non-professional that wants to get in the ballpark. Video and photo features are there with the XT3. IBIS will be there in the XH bodies of you need it but it likely wonít come until 2020. The lens lineup is already there and thereís no need to wait around. For the amateur or hobbyist - the S1 with the 24-105 and 70-200 will do most of what most people need... the Fuji 16-55 and 50-140 accomplishes the same things for about half the price and comparable depth of field.

    The new Nikon Z 24-70/2.8 has a 82mm filter thread so itís largely the same size as pro DSLR/Mirrorless lenses with worse ergonomics since thereís no vertical battery grip announced for the current bodies... Iím not sure that gets you where you want to go size wise since itís a concern. Olympus is going to lose value if you donít sell but you canít get the focal length equivalents in any other system for being that small if thatís a priority.
    Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart.

    WRT selling Olympus - this is already now less (far less) than 50% of new, so I most probably will keep this system just to satisfy my extreme tele lens desires

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The Leica Summicrons are a nice size and handle just fine.
    I am not concerned regarding body size, I think the question is lens size.
    On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day.
    And while the f1.4/50 from Pana and Leica are big - they are also fully usable at f1.4. Why owning a compact f1.4 lens which is so soft at f1.4 than one does stop it down to f2.0 anyways. However I would prefer what Nikon does, f1.8, therefore smaller and still very good.

    I guess the big lenses are also the "price" for high resolution sensors with high pixel density. Thats probably also the reason why Fuji added medium format to their dx-sized camers, and Pana FF to m43 - maybe the pixel density has reached the limits and the lenses become the weak point. So either use larger sensors or improve optical quality which can mean big sized lens and weight.
    I believe most premium modern prime lenses designed to resolve on high megapixel sensors from every brand imaginable are very good to excellent wide open or stopped down. Some are better than others for sure but at that level it comes down to nitpicking in all reality.

    I agree that a general purpose zoom, telephoto zoom, and midrange medium to fast prime in the 28-55mm focal length would suit the needs of most hobbyists. I also agree that most cameras are good enough that they arenít the limiting factor though they can be a subjective one. I really havenít found a camera that Iíve used for a good amount of time that I hadnít been able to get the shot with but I definitely have more preferences between what I like to use, what makes it easier to work with, whatís the fastest to use, and if I wasnít under constraints what Iíd prefer to use on vacation. Theyíre a not always the same.

    I think Panasonic built the ideal pro body for me (sans hybrid AF) in the LUMIX S while still having great options in Micro 4/3 for those concerned with size. In many regards I think Sony builds the best hybrid photo/video bodies. If a person wanted a small FF system I think Sony is hard to beat and they have small primes and zooms to go along with pro level primes and zooms. Canon RF has possibly the most interesting lens lineup and the most uninspiring bodies available amongst the FF systems. Nikon is doing something different than they have but Iím not quite sure of their direction either. Leica seems to have strengthened through partnerships. Olympus has reinforced that they arenít a brand for me. Fuji is doing great things too and theyíre still a contender for me despite having an overly passionate user base.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart.

    WRT selling Olympus - this is already now less (far less) than 50% of new, so I most probably will keep this system just to satisfy my extreme tele lens desires
    Nope I understand that. If money were no object (and I didnít have other priorities) I likely would buy a M10-P... but the value proposition isnít remotely there for me.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    ...
    On the other side: How many lenses does one have to carry around as an amateur. Maybe just a 24-105 or Leica 24-90 during day. ...
    When I had the SL, and now with the CL, I have often spent a couple of weeks walking about with just a Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 or Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Limited. I get my best pictures that way.

    After I retired, I decided that carrying the SL zooms around was simply too much, far more than I needed for anything. They are magnificent performers, but if they're not what I need, it's stupid to lug them around and admire how good they are if I were to use them.



    G

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Let's say that my heart seems to be rather with Fuji and Nikon as opposed to Olympus There are no other rational thoughts behind that, this is just purely based on my heart. ...
    Opposite for me. After owning and using Nikon SLR gear for thirty-plus years, very few of their modern offerings have any interest for me. I still have difficulties trying to think of selling my E-1, E-M1, and the magnificent Olympus pro-grade lenses I have for them. Even if I haven't used the cameras or lenses for a year or more...!

    Fuji digital... I have no use for whatever. Just bought a lovely, clean Fuji GS645S Wide 60, however. I'll have it serviced before I use itóit's been sitting a long timeóbut I've been more excited by that than by any of the new Fuji digital cameras at all.

    G

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Panasonic released the new LUMIX Sync app.

    A couple of neat features I noticed in it including the ability to sync camera settings to the phone and be copied to extra bodies and the ability to use your iPhone/iPad to GPS tag picture metadata automatically.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    More or less what I expected from the images that Iíve seen. Not necessarily a bad thing as higher DR generally means a flatter image out of camera which requires software presets upon import to get them to a better starting point IMO.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    V-Log paid firmware update is coming in July.

    https://m.dpreview.com/news/58059925...coming-in-july
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    My dealer has an S1 and says the AF is really snappy. I'm interested in how the EVF compares to the Nikon Z. I've used plenty of mirrorless and so far, the best have been the Q and Nikon Z. Interestingly, the Fuji XH1 was my least favorite even though the mp's are similar.
    Last edited by jdphoto; 29th March 2019 at 09:20.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    My dealer has an S1 and says the AF is really snappy. I'm interested in how the EVF compares to the Nikon Z. I've used plenty of mirrorless and so far, the best have been the Q and Nikon Z. Interestingly, the Fuji XH1 with was my least favorite even though the mp's are similar.
    Maybe im not as sensitive as some people are to EVFís but I really didnít see all that much difference between the Z, EOS R, GFX, XT3, XH1, or A7RIII/A9 EVFís... and frankly I still find that many of the older ones are still fine too. I tried the SL a few years ago at the DC Leica store and it was nice but it wasnít as ďearth shatteringĒ for me as what some people have claimed. It was clearly the best EVF (at the time) but I never found any of older ones to prevent me from taking/making shots either even going back to he Panasonic G1.

    Regarding the autofocus for photography it appears to be some of the snappiest autofocus on the market. Clearly a step behind the best Mirrorless and DOSRís in difficult situations but still better than most cameras too. Continuous is greatly improved above the Micro 4/3 cameras too and the ďwobblingĒ effect seems to be minimized.

    Heres a couple of direct tests against the Z6

    https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

    https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Maybe im not as sensitive as some people are to EVFís but I really didnít see all that much difference between the Z, EOS R, GFX, XT3, XH1, or A7RIII/A9 EVFís... and frankly I still find that many of the older ones are still fine too. I tried the SL a few years ago at the DC Leica store and it was nice but it wasnít as ďearth shatteringĒ for me as what some people have claimed. It was clearly the best EVF (at the time) but I never found any of older ones to prevent me from taking/making shots either even going back to he Panasonic G1.

    Regarding the autofocus for photography it appears to be some of the snappiest autofocus on the market. Clearly a step behind the best Mirrorless and DOSRís in difficult situations but still better than most cameras too. Continuous is greatly improved above the Micro 4/3 cameras too and the ďwobblingĒ effect seems to be minimized.

    Heres a couple of direct tests against the Z6

    https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

    https://youtu.be/Z8lZgPimNjI
    For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting. I hated the Leica CL's EVF in bright ambient too. The Z's seem to be more organic when shooting outdoors, but I guess any EVF at night is crappy.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting.
    I wish my TV monitor looked as good as my EVF.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    For me, it was a "TV monitor" effect that I hated, especially in bright ambient light or night shooting. I hated the Leica CL's EVF in bright ambient too. The Z's seem to be more organic when shooting outdoors, but I guess any EVF at night is crappy.
    Yeah. I guess I just donít notice it to the point of it bothering me. What it sounds like youíre describing is light frequency flicker and most cameras have a setting for that. It just may not be on by default. I know in Sony cameras, some of the EVF high performance settings are off by default and I suspect much of this has to do with them earning a higher battery CIPA rating. In any case anti-flickering can be turned on if needed in all of the newest cameras I believe.

    Iím thankful I donít have those issues because I strongly prefer EVFís in pretty much every way though I still use OVFís with my film cameras.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    I wish my TV monitor looked as good as my EVF.
    If you own a HDTV or UHDTV then it likely would.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    If you own a HDTV or UHDTV then it likely would.
    I have an HDTV and my EVF is much clearer. But perhaps that is a result of signal compression by the cable company and not a fault of the display itself.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Where are all the reviews? These are in stock with most dealers now.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    Where are all the reviews? These are in stock with most dealers now.
    What are the chances of a negative review? Reviewers will be falling all over themselves to see who can come up with the most superlatives. Wait a while for comments on the forums from actual users before deciding whether or not to take the plunge. Besides, the only Panasonic lenses currently available are the 24-105 f4 and 70-200 f4. The 50 f1.4 is a preorder (and costs a fortune). The Sigmas are preorder too. I suppose someone may put a Leica L lens on a Panasonic but I bet most will just wait for the SL2.
    Last edited by faberryman; 5th April 2019 at 09:41.
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