General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

[PeterA]

With the high pixel count in current digital cameras, and I'm of the opinion that 24 MP is already a high count, 50 mm lenses are really under-valued as portrait lenses. A 50 mm has the great advantage of being a good lens for most kinds of portraits, including environmental ones, while with 85 mm and longer, one tends to "hit the wall" quite literally if more than the subject's face is needed in the picture.

So from my point of view, both Leica and Panasonic did the right thing by starting off with large aperture 50 mm lenses. I wouldn't mind having the S1R with that lens only for starters.

50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

Just a thought.

I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

FWIW - that where I'm heading.
Pete

 

[PeterA]

After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!

Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

Just a thought.

I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

FWIW - that where I'm heading.
Pete

Don't think I haven't considered it. There are used Fuji MF bodies for sale at my local shop all the time, right now an R for a reasonable price. We'll see. Nothing will happen in my case this side of summer (That's winter for you).

 

[iiiNelson]

Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.

You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.

 

[PeterA]

You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.

Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.

 

[pegelli]

I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

I don't think Sony has the High Resolution pixel shift mode that the new Panasonic has.
And Tré (iiiNelson) likes larger bodies than the Sony ones, so that seems to be a big plus for him as well.

For me I don't see a reason to change system from Sony to the new Panasonic, I actually like the smaller Sony bodies and jumping ship and getting a whole new stable of lenses for me isn't justified (too expensive) just for the better EVF and the pixel shift technology. My photo's won't get any better, since I'm usually the limit, not my camera :grin:

But I can understand that for others it's a very tempting offer.

 

[biglouis]

I am a long-time Panasonic user, sometime Leica user and now Fujifilm MF user, as well.

I have to applaud Panasonic for going down this route and I think if you are in the market for a FF camera it should be seriously considered. Panasonic menus and ergonomics are the best I have used since I went digital nearly 15 years ago. This should bring some much needed improvement to the ease of use for owners, compared to other systems which in my opinion do not reach the same level.

My problem with what I have seen so far is (a) size of the bodies, e.g. ginormous and (b) pricing - as high and in some cases higher (e.g. S1R and 50mm lens) than the Nikon Z7, which says a lot.

The pricing is so high I would not consider moving from my Fujifilm MF system even if I wanted to. The value proposition of the S1R high end camera is just too close to the current pricing of the Fujifilm GFX50R and GFX50S and whether people care to believe it or not you cannot even begin to approach the IQ of a MF sensor with a FF camera.

I know a lot of people will howl with rage about the last statement but it is fact.

If you are doing landscape, portrait, commercial, architecture - whatever and are a pro or a serious prosumer then spend the extra and get into the Fuji system, would be my personal opinion and advice, if asked.

In the Dpreview video with Chris and Jordan, at one point Jordan expresses enthusiasm for the AI in the camera which will recognise wildlife. "All Panasonic needs is a long lens for birders!"

It is not credible that Panasonic will be able to develop the kind of birding lenses like the Nikkor 200-500, or the Canon 400L fast enough to entice away existing Nikon or Canon users for many years. Maybe even, never.

Nor do Panasonic have to support that requirement. If they go for the professional wedding, portrait, real estate, family etc market they could have a very good market share at some point in the future. It can still happen that Panasonic will out-Nikon, Nikon and out-Canon, Canon but I think that is at worst an uncertain achievement and at best maybe 5 years or more out, rather like the time frame it has taken Sony to get established as a serious alternative.

I think Panasonic have also missed a trick. I think they should have leap-frogged FF and gone straight to MF like Fuji. Fuji has a growing customer base as they make MF more and more affordable. That is a market ripe for competition whereas the FF market is likely to shrink over time.

Anyway those are my opinions: and just opinions. What do I know, eh?

LouisB

 

[k-hawinkler]

Dont worry - I know exactly wht you are saying.:ROTFL::ROTFL:

The GFX50S I have 23 + 32-63 + 110/2 - I would like to have a 45/2.8 but I dont 'need it' as the zoom covers that range and does it very well...tbh even the 23 which is a fantastic lens isn't used as much as I woudl like - because it really is a special purpose lens at 18mm (effective in 35mm terms).

Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.

i thin 50MP is a game changer for me anyway - because the FujiGFX handles like an SLR - the GF100 coming out will even have IBIS...

I think the crop capability means fewer lenses need to be bought - same as in Panasonic 47MP camera.

I'm looking at a redundant Leica M system now - which means I have already paid for the GFX100 and SL2 +
\For the first time in 20years I think I can safely exit the Leica M system - which is quite a substantial investment in lenses.

Less is more might actually become a reality.

Isn’t it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.

 

[ptomsu]

Should I buy any of these cameras, I will keep my m4/3 gear, and carry a GX8 for telephoto and other specialised photography. Back when I bought the D810, I did the mistake of selling most of my m4/3 equipment, and that was not smart. Sometimes, small is better.

However, this would mean not investing in any of the expensive lenses for m4/3.

Or need to invest in any new and expensive m43 body

 

[ptomsu]

I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many € in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

So I would ask to finally stop comparing any MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!

 

[iiiNelson]

Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.

It’s as said above. I wouldn’t mind if Sony made a larger body to balance their pro lenses in the Sony Zeiss and GM lines better.

I use the grips almost always because I feel like they’re a “requirement” to be comfortable with heavier lenses. The EVF is sweet too but I’ve never really had an issue with any of Sony’s EVF in my existing cameras or the newer ones. I can and do switch between EVF, OVF, and ground glass on a semi-normal basis without issues.

I have zero issues with Sony’s performance and IQ, the ergonomics are more of a “nice to have” for me as I’m on the larger size for humans, and I also wouldn’t mind having more in camera cropping options than 3:2 and 16:9 for framing. I know there are workarounds like buying an external monitor and using the framing on the external monitor but it should just be a simple enough option to add. The Panasonic seems to achieve something of a wish list for me outside of maybe the AF system... mainly because I don’t think any camera is beating the A9 on the market. The other less important thing but it’s an aesthetic factor is that I’ve always hated that there are lenses for Sony in houses in white exteriors (petty I know). I just do and wish it weren’t the case.

So in short i still use my Panasonic G1... never had an issue with it but it’s more or less “unusable” above ISO 1600. I’ve always liked Panasonic cameras. I’ve always got on well with them personally and I do have more confidence in their camera making than I would with Canon or Nikon. I’d say the same for Sony and Fuji as well. I still haven’t ruled out Fuji as a possibility for me but I’d prefer an updated XH2 even though I believe the XT3 is an extremely good camera. GFX 50S does most of what I’d expect from it and the possibility to have the 100S without need for any Pixel Shifting for more resolution than I need most of the time is something I’m still keeping an eye on. Any switches for me will more likely happen in the 2nd half of 2019 or later - if it happens at all. Wedding season is coming up and unless I’m going to run a Panasonic alongside the Sony to get real testing in I would never dump the proven Sony system in the middle of wedding/portrait season. That would just be irresponsible for me to do.

 

[iiiNelson]

I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many € in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

So I would ask to finally stop comparing and MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!

I will say this only because many users of the GFX are concurrently running Micro 4/3, APS-C, and FF systems along side their MFD. They do have some valid points and the GFX 50S is roughly the same size as a 5D IV. If a person is using L glass or Sigma Art/Sports lenses than the sizes are pretty much negligible too.

I agree that in general, the fastest FF Cameras will focus faster than MFD but perhaps the difference in practical terms will be negligible when you consider that the L-Mount cameras are using CDAF based systems and the newest versions will incorporate hybrid CDAF/OSPDAF systems. Also when you factor in lens prices you may arrive at a very similar system price so it is worth considering/discussing IMO based on where Panasonic has prices their camera/lenses. I don’t think the prices are out of line... I just don’t think anyone expect Fuji to be this aggressive in pricing. People were rejoicing at a sub-$10k Hasselblad at Photokina 2016 only to realize Fuji put out a sub-$6,500 MFD then followed that with a sub-$4,500 body. Now we are looking at a sub-$10k flagship from Fuji with resolution that was $30k+ just to approach.

Back to the topic though. I’m hoping I can receive a demo/review copy of both Panasonic bodies because I’d like one of each of it was the direction that I chose to move in but I will still keep an eye on what Sony is doing because they’ve been too quiet. That could mean they don’t have anything but more than likely it means they’ll get most of the chatter re-directed back on their cameras soon.

 

[biglouis]

Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

 

[ptomsu]

Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

Louis,

sorry I did not want to offend you - and you are very right with that pricing issue!

But based on all my experience I would never ever compare MF with FF. And while Fuji seems to be on the right track currently I am not sure where all this will (can) lead in a few years from now. But maybe we have to see it from that side that Fuji is changing the market (pricing) - hopefully at least!

Thanks for your reply anyway - and I have similar thoughts about that EM1X ....

Peter

 

[iiiNelson]

Peter

I understand your point and I agree. What I was trying to point out is that the price point of the S1R, in the UK at least, puts it close to the Fujifilm MF cameras and if IQ is a determining issue for a potential customer it may be worth it spend several hundred pounds more, or even consider a second user MF system.

You did ask for opinions and thoughts and that was my only contribution to the debate.

Per the other thread, my next camera is more likely to be the EM1X (hehe).

LouisB

Regarding FF v. Cropped Sensors v. MFD... of a person can ONLY have one there’s an argument that FF provides the best balance of performance to size ratio. There are always exceptions to the rule because I feel the XT3 comes close enough to the average FF camera while not quite getting to the same level IQ wise as the class leading models but the same can be said for the best FF cameras approaching the IQ of the entry level MFD but being a ways off from the class leading models. The entry level MFD are still “better” in general like the same can be said for the lower end FF when compared to the best cropped sensors... but how much any of it matters is subjective to the user. Really thats all i have to say on the matter and any of the cameras can make great images sonits up to the end user to determine what short comings existing gear has that they cant easily work around and make a decision from there.

If I’m being completely honest there is nothing my existing gear can’t do photographically that I’ve asked it to do. What I’m in search of are subjective things not found on the spec sheets without giving up all the things I’ve come to expect from the spec sheet that makes my existing cameras great. Until that whole package comes together I see no real compelling reason to completely dump what I own without the replacement living alongside the workhorse. It’s why I haven’t invested in generation 3 Sony bodies - I’m not sure of their direction once additional competition rolls in. I’d like to believe they’ll stay the innovative course but I’m unsure they will. I hope they don’t become complacent in a way that Canon and Nikon appeared to the last 5-10 years. That would be a deal breaker for me personally. It was the process I used when I switched from Canon to Micro 4/3 (was an easy process for me because photography was purely hobby) and from Leica to Sony (was a bit harder because I loved the M9 but the Sony is infinitely more versatile when comparing features/ability). If I were to go to the Fuji or Panasonic route (assuming the next Sony announcements don’t make me forget they exist) they’d have to live alongside and run with the Sony through wedding and portrait season and prove themselves week in and week out. Simple as that. I’m undecided on anything but definitely curious as I have some personal projects building, some professional work for my wife and I growing, family life, school, etc. to keep me busy.

 

[PeterA]

Isn’t it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.

yes 32-64 my mistake:banghead:

I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway! :ROTFL:

 

[k-hawinkler]

yes 32-64 my mistake:banghead:

I wouldn't change anything if I were you either

Very little reason to change systems these days - the only camera I think goes anywhere near even making me think is the Sony A9 - but I don't really use any of the features I like about it anyway! :ROTFL:

Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldn’t handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ¼ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. That’s the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. ::grin:

 

[PeterA]

Thanks Peter. Well, reading about the A9 is one thing, actually using it with the battery grip is another. So far I have not encountered a situation the silent electronic shutter couldn’t handle. I am really looking forward for the firmware updates coming this spring and summer.

BTW the readout time of the Fuji GFX 50S sensor is ¼ s. Its mechanical shutter operates at 1/160 s. That’s the same as the readout time of 1/160 s of the A9 sensor, its mechanical shutter operating at 1/300 s, as most mechanical shutters do. It will be interesting to see what the 100S does. ::grin:

I must say I do look forward to shutterless shutters - I too like quiet.:thumbup:
Yes the 100 will b every very 'interesting' and then the 150 no doubt...:bugeyes:
Pete

 

[Paratom]

Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.

 

[iiiNelson]

Its awful to read in this forum. Everytime I tell myself I need to focus more on photography and less on gear I come here and get infected again.
As some may know one big part of my personal photography is my family, kids, dog, some nature. Now for kids and dog a fast camera like the SL (or the new Pana or xyz) allows to be able to catch allmost every situation, because its fast, flexible etc. There is a certain risk one ends up with thousands of images. Now with MF - which is a little slower in operation - it seems more difficult technically to catch a quick moment, but is not impossible. And if you catch it, you usually get the little extra pop in the image which I find rewarding. And it also makes me think a little more when takin the image.
The exception is sportsphotography and long tele things, where I believe MF is just too slow and too bulky.
Overall systems seem to grow closer together, FF IQ comes closer to MF, and MF speed and flexibility and prices closer to FF.
Good FF lenses seem also to grow in size. So IMO dx + MF would be a nice combination. However besides Fuji there seem few companies who offer professional dx-zooms. I have and like the Cl. But the midrange zoom is 18-56/3.5-5.6. Thats boring. The 11-23 is great, the tele zoom 55-135 is optically great but lacks IS.
And the CL is a little too small for my taste. Give us a little bigger dx body, a 16-55/2.8 Zoom, a 55-135IS lens, make those lenses weather sealed and I will sell my SL and stop lusting for a SR1.

There’s a good chance Sigma will be the one to bring high quality APS-C lenses to the L-Mount. Time will tell but unless it’s an immediate need I wouldn’t make any hasty switches... though you could do a lot worse than the Fuji Cameras.