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Thread: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    How does "Multi shot" work with astro or wind blown branches or leaves?
    I canít imagine it would be particularly useful for astrophotography, not least because the maximum exposure time is 1 second.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    So, with an exposure time of one second, couldn't just simply stitching images together work the same in any camera as the S1's multi shot?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    So, with an exposure time of one second, couldn't just simply stitching images together work the same in any camera as the S1's multi shot?
    No. Stacking multiple exposures from a non-sensor-shift camera can match the noise improvement but not the extra resolution achieved via the shifting sensor of the S1/R. But the one-second limit will place some restrictions on the range of subjects to which you can usefully apply the Panasonic high-resolution mode.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    DXO Sensor results

    S1

    https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lu...sensor-review/

    S1R

    https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lu...sensor-review/

    Looks like both sensors are performing well (which we already knew/assumed) and are in line on paper with the competition. What Iíve always have been most impressed by is the color performance at higher ISO. These cameras seem to hold color longer and with better results than the competition and the tests mostly validate my assumptions that were based on what Iíve seen from these sensors.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    DXO Sensor results

    S1

    https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lu...sensor-review/

    S1R

    https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lu...sensor-review/

    Looks like both sensors are performing well (which we already knew/assumed) and are in line on paper with the competition. What Iíve always have been most impressed by is the color performance at higher ISO. These cameras seem to hold color longer and with better results than the competition and the tests mostly validate my assumptions that were based on what Iíve seen from these sensors.
    What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Haag View Post
    What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?
    Never handled the Fuji but Iíd assume that it would beat the Panasonic. Larger sensor (70% larger), more color depth (16-bit vs 14-bit), more resolution (102 vs. 47). For pure landscape, itíll almost certainly beat any 35mm based system. There a chance the autofocus will be more solid too in continuous tracking.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Haag View Post
    What would be your thoughts on the S1R vs the new Fuji 100 megapixel? Is there enough difference that you would pick the Fuji if landscape photography is your primary use?
    If you print big or push your files heavily in post, yes. I can see the difference easily on the current 50mp sensors from my X1D/645Z. The new 100mp sensor is another small step again.

    For web or screen viewing it's unlikely you'd see any difference except if you are on the extremes of dynamic range with the S1R.

    Gordon

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

    I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

    I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.
    I would be hard pressed to choose between the S1 and the Nikon Z6 especially after the recent FW upgrade on the Nikon that finally enables eye AF. The weakest point in Panasonic cameras is unfortunately still their AF system with DFD - lot of users have complained about this and it seems that it did not get better with the introduction of the S1/S1R. And yes, I am almost always using AFC nowadays - on my Olympus EM1.2 this is always on and never disappoints - so I am expecting similar performance from any other camera I use and this is pretty hard .....

    While the S1's EVF has more resolution I am no longer sure I really need that because the Z6 EVF is already more than I could want for - but sure enough, more (MP) is always better.

    One of the key use cases for me of a FF mirrorless camera is using my Leica M lenses and from what I have heard the Z6 and Z7 perform marvellously with that lenses, so while the S1 should not disappoint here the slightly more compact size and less weight of the Z series cameras makes for a better overall shooting experience in that case IMO.

    WRT that review - I cannot see that it is bad, it is a typical and relatively neutral review from DPReview and the camera scores relatively high.

    And yes I have tried both cameras and as I said I would not be sure if I would buy the S1 today or the Z6.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I only use AF-S with Panasonic cameras. If something moves, I just jam the shutter release through. AF-S is that fast. No, I don't shoot bursts. There's only one decisive moment. Yes, I do miss sometimes, quite often actually, but there are other photos to be taken.

    An EVF can never be too good. Most are bad, the one on the S1/R is quite good.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I only use AF-S with Panasonic cameras. If something moves, I just jam the shutter release through. AF-S is that fast. No, I don't shoot bursts. There's only one decisive moment. Yes, I do miss sometimes, quite often actually, but there are other photos to be taken.

    An EVF can never be too good. Most are bad, the one on the S1/R is quite good.
    Well, as I said already I only (almost) use AFC since I acquired the EM1.2 and with the latest FW 3.0 update it became so fast and reliable that it is a no brainer to use in 98% of my shots.

    WRT EVF you are right but I found the Z EVF to be VERY good and the differences be marginal to the S1/S1R.

    The main advantage I see in the Z-series is they are built like tanks and still have a size I can call small, BUT also the new S lenses are pretty small compared to their other FF counterparts from Canon, Panasonic and even Sony. As I am getting older weight and size became very important for me and I definitely will not go back to something old school DSLR size. Which the lenses (and also the FF cameras) from Panasonic (and Sigma) tend to show. Yes they are great, superior maybe, but I would not be willing to lug that around anymore, in the Studio yes but then these occasions are meanwhile pretty seldom for me, so I rather prefer the size of the Nikon Z system.

    Just have a look at the new Z 2.8/24-70 - this is a comparatively VERY small lens also paired with stellar IQ (several reviews out there) and if that new Z 2.8/70-200 has similar genes then I am hooked. But I am waiting for that new Z 80-400 (not announced yet) that would make my day for wildlife then. And the beautiful small Z 14-30.

    So you see where I am coming from and I guess you as an "old" Nikon user can appreciate that
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Thanks Peter for reminding me of the EM1.2 with the latest FW 3.0 update.
    I should use it, now that I have updated the firmware!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, as I said already I only (almost) use AFC since I acquired the EM1.2 and with the latest FW 3.0 update it became so fast and reliable that it is a no brainer to use in 98% of my shots.

    WRT EVF you are right but I found the Z EVF to be VERY good and the differences be marginal to the S1/S1R.

    The main advantage I see in the Z-series is they are built like tanks and still have a size I can call small, BUT also the new S lenses are pretty small compared to their other FF counterparts from Canon, Panasonic and even Sony. As I am getting older weight and size became very important for me and I definitely will not go back to something old school DSLR size. Which the lenses (and also the FF cameras) from Panasonic (and Sigma) tend to show. Yes they are great, superior maybe, but I would not be willing to lug that around anymore, in the Studio yes but then these occasions are meanwhile pretty seldom for me, so I rather prefer the size of the Nikon Z system.

    Just have a look at the new Z 2.8/24-70 - this is a comparatively VERY small lens also paired with stellar IQ (several reviews out there) and if that new Z 2.8/70-200 has similar genes then I am hooked. But I am waiting for that new Z 80-400 (not announced yet) that would make my day for wildlife then. And the beautiful small Z 14-30.

    So you see where I am coming from and I guess you as an "old" Nikon user can appreciate that
    I agree about the size vs. quality of the Nikons. Functionality is good too. For travel, they would be better cameras than the Panasonics, not bigger than my MFT cameras.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Read it. Dpr used to be a rather terrible place except for the reviews. Now, the reviews are rather terrible too.

    I've tried it. It's the best camera ever. No, I don't do sports. Yes, it's heavy. It's still the best.
    Best camera ever is rather subjective opinion... but I have no doubt the Panasonic is really good as reflected by the rating. Perhaps there will come a day in the next few years where DFD isnít a compromise but we arenít quite there yet. Itís improved over the LUMIX G Cameras but thereís still a ways to go in the microprocessing and sensor readout speed for that day to come IMO. Iíve heard mixed things about the EVF and I think it comes down to how sensitive a person is to EVFís. I can notice a difference in them but none of them have really bothered me enough to not prefer them over the last 10 years. So I place the EVF in the LUMIX S in the ďnice to haveĒ category. I know itís a key feature for many, I suspect itíll be in most new premium cameras, but itís not a make or break feature for me.

    I do care about AF performance for a professional workhorse though and thatís really the only weak point I see in this camera. Everything else is good enough IMO from my viewpoint. I think the review reflected that. When it comes to price thatís a real factor now that the competition has been out for awhile now and that Canon, Nikon, and Sony have better recognition/support. I fear these cameras arenít moving extremely well as Iíve never seen them out of stock or backordered from launch. There was a time where the Sony, Nikon, and even Canon were hard to get for the first 1-6 months without preordering or placing a deposit. I donít want to see Panasonic fail but unless thereís a price cut to the bodies and have more attainable lenses for the masses, I think theyíll suffer from people dipping their toes in the water then have the bodies wind up on eBay or Craigslist. Iíve seen that a lot on groups I frequent where people are judging the camera solely using adapted lenses and never investing into native lenses. The performance is a little underwhelming to the end user then they jump ship to another brand and have a ďrevelation.Ē

    In any case though Iím with Peter in that AFC needs to be improved in video. In photography itís probably good enough.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Best camera ever is rather subjective opinion... but I have no doubt the Panasonic is really good as reflected by the rating. Perhaps there will come a day in the next few years where DFD isn’t a compromise but we aren’t quite there yet. It’s improved over the LUMIX G Cameras but there’s still a ways to go in the microprocessing and sensor readout speed for that day to come IMO. I’ve heard mixed things about the EVF and I think it comes down to how sensitive a person is to EVF’s. I can notice a difference in them but none of them have really bothered me enough to not prefer them over the last 10 years. So I place the EVF in the LUMIX S in the “nice to have” category. I know it’s a key feature for many, I suspect it’ll be in most new premium cameras, but it’s not a make or break feature for me.

    I do care about AF performance for a professional workhorse though and that’s really the only weak point I see in this camera. Everything else is good enough IMO from my viewpoint. I think the review reflected that. When it comes to price that’s a real factor now that the competition has been out for awhile now and that Canon, Nikon, and Sony have better recognition/support. I fear these cameras aren’t moving extremely well as I’ve never seen them out of stock or backordered from launch. There was a time where the Sony, Nikon, and even Canon were hard to get for the first 1-6 months without preordering or placing a deposit. I don’t want to see Panasonic fail but unless there’s a price cut to the bodies and have more attainable lenses for the masses, I think they’ll suffer from people dipping their toes in the water then have the bodies wind up on eBay or Craigslist. I’ve seen that a lot on groups I frequent where people are judging the camera solely using adapted lenses and never investing into native lenses. The performance is a little underwhelming to the end user then they jump ship to another brand and have a “revelation.”

    In any case though I’m with Peter in that AFC needs to be improved in video. In photography it’s probably good enough.
    DFD from what I know is equally good in both G series and S series cameras. EVF - nice to have 5.7MP, but I was shooting a Nikon Z6 and Z7 today in a test in Vienna and was pleasantly surprised! These EVFs are light years above the Olympus EM1.2 and EM1.X EVFs and I was never feeling disconnected in any form. I will show photos in the Nikon forum as soon as I manage to get the photos down to my MAC from the XQD card (the card reader I bought does unfortunately not work) but from what I could judge on the EFV and the LCD of the Z7 the results look stunning.

    As said the big downside of the Panasonic's are the rather bulky and big size and weight for me (for some that might be a big plus though) and also the whole system (including lenses) is obviously getting heavy and large. I shot the new Nikon S 2.8/24-70 today almost exclusively and the size, weight and whole handling on the Z7 was absolutely great. And the optical quality is obviously second to none.

    For me - and maybe only for me as I have not so much money left to jump ships too often in my retirement - from all I know and felt till today the Nikon Z system wins hands down! If I had the money to buy the Panasonic S and lenses and just switch if I do not like what so ever, then this would be my way to go, but from what I know today I put my eggs in the Nikon Z baket
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    There were several speed improvements made over the years with the LUMIX S. For one there are two quad core processors to do four times as many calculations with the DFD. So in direct comparison the S is much better than the G as the AF calculation frequency is much higher. On the older G Cameras the AF is hot or miss even in photography... in the S itís more reliable but itís no A9 (or even A7RIII) by any means.

    In any case though it would probably work for most people but when you're paying a premium id have a hard time definitely choosing it for a workhorse until DFD is further improved to a negligible state of parity personally. We arenít there yet but in time I do believe itíll get there. Hopefully the cameras donít fail commercially before we do though.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R



    Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

    Joe
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    From my perspective there are few real surprises today with the next NEW NEW gear . I had a S1R and used it exclusively with the Leica SL lenses ..mostly with the 50/1.4 SL Summilux . I did not use the pixel shifting multishot as I am not really a landscape /tripod shooter . The image quality produced by the sensor is terrific ..would you expect something different ?

    Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

    Panasonic has done a good job in setting up the S1R and the files produced have a very linear tone curve . I found them easy to adjust to taste . The more important issue regarding image quality would be ďAre you going to buy the Leica Glass ? ď Its very expensive .

    Right now at 47MP FF the S1R with the Leica SL prime lenses is the best available in a FF camera . I also have no doubt that several MF alternatives will be noticeably better .

    I sent the S1R back to B&H because I did not enjoy the size, weight,handling,menu system or the very weak AF system ...but I have no doubts about the IQ.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post


    Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

    Joe
    Hi Joel, ive shared this elsewhere but I read this and thought Id share it here.

    I did a very simple test of High Res mode (mode 1), taking a picture of my bookshelf.

    NOTE:
    1) you may need to open the images in a new tab to view at 100%
    2) pay attention to the yellow DK cart label.

    Full image:


    100% crop comparison - HiRes vs Normal:

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    From my perspective there are few real surprises today with the next NEW NEW gear . I had a S1R and used it exclusively with the Leica SL lenses ..mostly with the 50/1.4 SL Summilux . I did not use the pixel shifting multishot as I am not really a landscape /tripod shooter . The image quality produced by the sensor is terrific ..would you expect something different ?

    Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

    Panasonic has done a good job in setting up the S1R and the files produced have a very linear tone curve . I found them easy to adjust to taste . The more important issue regarding image quality would be “Are you going to buy the Leica Glass ? “ Its very expensive .

    Right now at 47MP FF the S1R with the Leica SL prime lenses is the best available in a FF camera . I also have no doubt that several MF alternatives will be noticeably better .

    I sent the S1R back to B&H because I did not enjoy the size, weight,handling,menu system or the very weak AF system ...but I have no doubts about the IQ.
    Roger,

    would be interested why you call the AF system very weak - have similar thoughts but would like to know your view!

    And how you would compare it to the AF of the Z7 - which I find quite good since the latest FW update.

    Thanks

    Peter

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    My perspective on the S1R AF is based on expectations of the ďbest of the best ď .

    Focus Tracking -- completely inadequate compared to a D850 or D5 . Essentially as expected for a CDAF system .

    Eye Auto Focus -- S1R has facial recognition but not eye AF .

    The S1R AF is fast and accurate on static subjects ...so it depends on your requirements and expectations . Of course we worked around AF limitations for years and with practice and good technique . For many sports you can predict the desired plan of focus and guess ..but if you want dozens of sharp captures to choose from you need the type of AF system Nikon and Canon use .

    Eye AF is new to me but highly desirable for capturing fast moving grandkids .

    The S1R was built to be an all purpose , durable and expensive tool . It is loaded with features beyond my needs and desire to learn . It just doesn t fit as a special purpose full size FF camera for me . I would rather use MF for situations I can best control and where IQ is more important than size and weight . Or the M10 for street and travel . (the only limit on the M10 is me but I haven t found a way to buy more endurance ,speed and motivation ...although I keep trying ?)

    But like most I don t follow a rigid ďpurpose driven ď approach in selecting gear and will probably end up with a Leica SL2 which I doubt will have a AF any different from the S1R .
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post


    Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

    Joe
    There is an image thread with s1/s1r images.
    I am quite happy with it, I also got used to the size, specially since the lenses are not small either.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post

    Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .
    So, I agree with the first statement wholly. Leica hasn't had a lens signature in a LONG time and that is one of the reasons I left Leica after 42 years. I actually have one Leica lens left that I use on the Sony cameras and it is a 1964 Tele Elmarit that is stunning. I've done side by side comparisons with the ASPH 90mm Summicron and sharpness and contrast are equal but rendering is much more to my taste with the TE. I believe that with modern cameras and lenses, the camera manipulation of the image, with the knowledge of the lens being used, is more a factor than the actual lens itself. The software is a major player in the "Leica look". They have gone to the way of the other manufacturer's style by focusing () lens design entirely around image sharpness and bokeh. If you've ever read some of the earlier Leica books, 1970s to 1990s, they explain what the Leica lens designers are aiming for. They were taking a round lens, to get a 3 dimensional image and display it as a rectangle in 2 dimensions.

    Ah, sorry about the rant. I'm not angry, just reporting my view of a time lost.

    Cheers,

    Joel
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I guess we will just have to disagree . My conclusions are based on using Leica lenses on a variety of different cameras /sensors . Some Leica lenses have stronger signatures and are more easily identified . Example Leica R 80/1.4 .

    As newer lenses begin to reach perfection levels in edge to edge sharpness ..its harder . However if you compared the 120/2.5 S lens with the 100/2 S (as we did yesterday ) you can see a very clear difference in contrast, color saturation and bokeh . These differences are clear on both a Leica S 006 CCD and the S 007 CMOS ..very different sensor designs and tuning by Leica /Adobe .

    Lens design has reached a point where the ability to render fine detail is not a major differentiating factor . Having spent a ridiculous amount of time on this subject ....you have to look closely at attributes beyond sharpness.

    As a more frequently encountered comparison ..look at any Zeiss lens compared to a Nikon or Canon lens .

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    There is an image thread with s1/s1r images.
    I am quite happy with it, I also got used to the size, specially since the lenses are not small either.
    I'm aware of the "Fun with..." thread with only 35 posts and a few photos, many from you. I'm just surprised that a thread on "General thoughts..." now encompasses 5 pages and 226 posts, with very few photos. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll let you talk amongst yourselves. I'm watching from a safe distance.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    I'm aware of the "Fun with..." thread with only 35 posts and a few photos, many from you. I'm just surprised that a thread on "General thoughts..." now encompasses 5 pages and 226 posts, with very few photos. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll let you talk amongst yourselves. I'm watching from a safe distance.

    Joe
    I canít speak for others, only myself. I have/had great interest in this system but decided against purchasing anything until the fall. I want to see what Sony does next as Iím still financially invested into that ecosystem. The S1 likely comes up a bit short in some key areas for my uses (reliable AF-C) but I really like the design ethos of it overall. Iím still awaiting what improvements are made in the time being and how the other lenses from panasonic perform and what gets announced next. So in short Iím posting because there remains a level of interest in this system for me but Sony introducing a few things with their next bodies (larger size for when using ďproĒ lenses namely along with a few nice to haves like 4K120) would likely push me to just upgrade my existing bodies and forget about Panasonic for now.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Tests with the version 1.1 firmware.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

    While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

    What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

    I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

    But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

    So simple some things can turn out

    Just some samples from the Z7 just to prove how wonderful that camera renders the last one's in this thread, from now under Nikon

    2019-06-26_0152.jpg by ptomsu, on Flickr

    2019-06-26_0078.jpg by ptomsu, on Flickr
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

    While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

    What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

    I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

    But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

    So simple some things can turn out
    Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.

    Whenever i tried the Z cameras (3 times so far) I found them to be nearly the same size as my Sony cameras without the possibility to add a grip. This was a turnoff for me personally as I already own the Sony and was curious if there was anything to the people that stated it was “so much more comfortable to hold.” Its slightly larger yes but my ring finger and pinky still hang off the camera like they do aim the Sony without a grip.

    I agree that the EVF is good enough on most cameras but I also felt the raving over the Leica SL EVF was overblown too. I could see a difference for sure but it wasn’t night and day for me personally. It didn’t make me magically decide that I could finally move to an EVF... I decided that more than 10 years ago that they were getting to be good enough, though they’re certainly better now.

    Lastly, I appreciate the added size of the Panasonic but truthfully I didn’t switch to Mirrorless solely for size concerns. It was a factor in a sense for Micro 4/3 and the travel I did back then but I switched to Mirrorless because I though (correctly) that it was the future and presented a wealth of benefits to my own workflow. Again battery life wasn’t a concern for me and many of the arguments people had made against Mirrorless weren’t factors for me. I just made the options work. I have different needs/desires now but for travel I’m still good with say a Micro 4/3 or APS-C camera. If I switch from Sony the only options I’ll likely consider (still) are Fuji or Panasonic... Canon is a distant possibility depending on how their Mirrorless “1Dx” turns out. I didn’t really care for the Nikon personally (its a me thing more than the camera itself) but it’s “fine” for others.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.
    After trying the Z7 I doubt that "ANY" camera can produce these results. What I showed are the full images, but you can crop in on the Z7 and there is still all that detail at 100% and also at higher ISO there is no noise. This could be only achieved with a Sony A7RIII, a Nikon D850 or maybe a Panasonic S1R, if the right lenses are available and used.

    And this shows the whole issue

    1) the A7RIII would b e too small for my taste while a decent native 2.8/24-70 lens would be available
    2) the D850 as a camera would be able to achieve such results, but definitely not the even latest F-mount 2.8/24-70
    3) The Panasonic S1R - if such a lens existed could maybe do that BUT

    a) this lens is not even available today
    b) the S1R - as I pointed out while being for sure a capable camera - is definitely not for me - not from size, not from weight and not from the operability

    So what remains (for now) is the Z7 - for me at least .....
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber He has done better reviews

    The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

    WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

    From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber He has done better reviews

    The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

    WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

    From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW
    Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I donít think thereís anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 wouldíve been a direct comparison. Itís worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isnít worth complaining about how they display data. Iíd argue the Panasonic is ďcleanerĒ to me but either works.

    Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more ďCanon likeĒ in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but itís not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

    What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I donít think thereís anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 wouldíve been a direct comparison. Itís worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isnít worth complaining about how they display data. Iíd argue the Panasonic is ďcleanerĒ to me but either works.

    Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more ďCanon likeĒ in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but itís not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

    What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.
    Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

    And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Peter,
    I too, opted for the Z7 over the S1/r because of lenses and size. The Z7 is also imo, the best for adapting any lens because of the specs. Nikon's S lenses are the best i've used in any camera...including Leica.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

    And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.
    Maybe, but Iím not trying to convince you one way or another.

    If you feel most comfortable with the Z7 then go with it and donít look back. The Panasonic isnít going to get any smaller and OSPDAF isnít going to come from a firmware update if you feel you need it. Iím sure the Sigma lenses will be large too and you seem to be adverse to using large lenses. Personally Iíd just sell the Leica M lenses you donít see yourself using and buy into the Z ecosystem. No need to continue looking if the Z already meets what you want from a camera IMO. Nothing wrong with choosing what you like or what works for you.

    Personally im still waiting until the Fall before I make any decisions. Sony (hopefully) wouldíve announced the A9II and A7SIII by then so I can make a more informed decision in either direction. Fuji May have reduced the price on the GFX50S further by then as well. Time will tell but thatís what my decision will be based on.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber He has done better reviews

    The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

    WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

    From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW
    For me both the 24-105 Pana and also the Leica 24-90 are excellent midrangezooms, even though not with a constant f2.8, but then with a very useful range.
    The Nikon Z is certainly much smaller body, eventhough I would say as soon as you use larger lenses the s1(r) offers a more stable grip in my hands. The 35 and 50 Z-Nikons are "bargains" compared to the Leica counterparts IMO. Then right now there are not many Z lenses available, but I bet there will follow more soon.
    Where I experienced differences between the Z6/7 and the Panasonic are colors. I still feel to see that typical yellowish Nikon color sometimes in greens and also sometimes in skintones. Overall I feel I can get faster colors to my taste with the Panasonic. Probably a matter of taste and postprocessing skills.

    For my part I finally stayed with the S1r because I allready owned some SL-lenses which I really like and I love the flexibility to be able to also use other Leica lenses (CL/M/S), plus I really like those Leica SL lenses, even though they are quite high priced.
    I must say that on the other side the Z-system has a lot positive things, specially the size of the body, the 24-70/4.0 is a super compact FF-combo, the AF is fast, the 35 and 50 are very good IMO.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Additional tests and thoughts on the new firmware v1.2.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

    What are your thoughts?
    Hello,
    I'm not sure how old this post is, but I thought that I would make a brief note in re the S1r. I'd been a Leica SL user, as well as a Sony A7rIII and Fuji GFX 50s user and so on, for a an unhappy interval, until the Panasonic S1r came along. While I still own the A7rIIIósold the othersóand a bunch of GM lenses, the cameraótoo smallóis rarely used nowadays. The S1r, on the other hand, is my favorite. Why? Ergonomics, analog controls (lots of dedicated and programmable buttons and levers) IBIS, and most of all its stunning IQ. So from my perspective, the S1r is beyond intriguing, and approaches nirvana.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.
    I doubt it. As I mentioned in my analysis above - and also as revealed in the full Dpreview test which is now up - DFD is poor for any kind of action/sports/wildlife photography. Not that I am in the market for one but I'd definitely choose the Z7 over either of the S1x cameras if I needed to photograph things which go fast.

    LouisB

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I doubt it. As I mentioned in my analysis above - and also as revealed in the full Dpreview test which is now up - DFD is poor for any kind of action/sports/wildlife photography. Not that I am in the market for one but I'd definitely choose the Z7 over either of the S1x cameras if I needed to photograph things which go fast.

    LouisB
    Lous,

    thanks so much for these thoughts and experiences! It helps me indeed very much!

    originally I was thinking to buy a S1R in order to use my M glass. As I learned from Jono Slack in another thread and also from direct conversations with him there is definitely a big difference in shooting M lenses on a Leica M or a Leica SL compared to a S1/S1R. Now the S1 and S1R are ruled out for me for the use of M lenses.

    Would I like to shoot a S1R for all my FF needs with AF? After your experiences with DFD I would definitely no longer prefer that, especially since the potential additional benefit of using it for M lenses evaporated. So NO, the S1/S1R are not for me and what I want to achieve.

    I could try the Nikon Z cameras but after thinking about that for a while now I may very well take distance form that thought as I believe in the fact that M lenses are best fitting to a Leica M body. There are already some used and demo M10's arriving on the market, so the M becomes also a financially more viable option.

    For sports and action I hardly need and want FF which means I am more than optimally positions with my Olympus PRO gear and a used Leica M10 or M10P.

    So now you understand what you really helped me with your experiences and your answers

    Many thanks again!

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Hi Peter,
    sounds like m43 for speed and tele and M10 for fun and "puristic" photography could work for you.
    Tom
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    As several answers above attest, the main difference is in the lenses. While I have a stash of old Nikkors, they don't play in the same league as the SL lenses, unfortunately, so my £$ goes to Panasonic rather than Nikon. The position would change if I was to use the longer Nikkors, in particular, more. but the conventional wide-angle to 90mm does me fine for the mostpart. You must really know that you are going to use it, if you take the 200mm f2 VR Nikkor.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Lous,

    thanks so much for these thoughts and experiences! It helps me indeed very much!

    originally I was thinking to buy a S1R in order to use my M glass. As I learned from Jono Slack in another thread and also from direct conversations with him there is definitely a big difference in shooting M lenses on a Leica M or a Leica SL compared to a S1/S1R. Now the S1 and S1R are ruled out for me for the use of M lenses.

    Would I like to shoot a S1R for all my FF needs with AF? After your experiences with DFD I would definitely no longer prefer that, especially since the potential additional benefit of using it for M lenses evaporated. So NO, the S1/S1R are not for me and what I want to achieve.

    I could try the Nikon Z cameras but after thinking about that for a while now I may very well take distance form that thought as I believe in the fact that M lenses are best fitting to a Leica M body. There are already some used and demo M10's arriving on the market, so the M becomes also a financially more viable option.

    For sports and action I hardly need and want FF which means I am more than optimally positions with my Olympus PRO gear and a used Leica M10 or M10P.

    So now you understand what you really helped me with your experiences and your answers

    Many thanks again!
    Seems like the logical question to ask yourself is do you want AF, are lenses available on the systems that you want to shoot, and how much do you really miss the M lenses being that theyíve sat for years now without a M camera... Iím not attempting to persuade you one way or another but you keep coming back to the Nikon Z and the M lenses. Theyíre pretty much on the opposite side of the spectrum and many of the newest lenses are close enough to the newest Leica lenses... the Mandler lenses are a completely different situation but as I said previously - try out YOUR lenses for yourself on the Nikon and see if it meets YOUR expectations of acceptable performance. Iíve read a lot of tests that were all over the place regarding M lenses on Mirrorless and as far as Leica lenses go many were accurate but not all. Itís not JUST about cover glass, focal length, or software corrections though all three can play a major part in the equation. The fact is that each person needs to try the combos for themselves.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Cost of entry just got cheaper by $700 USD:



    Competition in this space is fierce.

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