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Thread: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Itís nice to hear user experiences and I was considering getting the Panasonicís to replace my Sony kit... but with all of the AF disclaimers Iíve rethought it. I do believe that DFD will get to the point where it doesnít matter if a person uses DFD or a hybrid PDAF system once the processing power significantly increases. At that point I will strongly consider the Panasonic... especially if Sony refuses to offer a larger body style. I seemingly love EVERYTHING about the IQ coming from the LUMIX S (mainly the way the color reproduction fidelity holds even in high ISO shots and access to the Leica APO-Summicron lenses to go alongside the Panasonic zooms) and I can see the pairing of a S1R and S1H being a perfect kit for me quite possibly.
    I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures

    WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking

    And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures

    WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking

    And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!
    Fair enough, but I'm just coming from relevant personal experience of having to work with the Sony FE series for years now specifically with their pro G-Master zooms. I don't have an issue with the primes personally though I have no use for the 400/2.8 or 600/4. I've tried the 400/28 (it was PM-R's personal copy) and it was amazing but I'm not buying one. If the 200-600 was a constant aperture then I would have purchased it this summer when I got to test one out in July... even still it's a great lens that is internal focusing and zooming if I remember correctly. I think the one caveat in the Sony system that may seal the deal with me staying put is that Tamron (interestingly enough) may have solved my biggest issue with their f/2.8 offerings. As such I've purchased the 17-28/2.8 and 28-75/2.8. I'm also planning on putting my name on the list for the 70-180/2.8 the day it's available in hopes that they'll balance well enough on the existing Sony bodies. If so then there's little reason for me to switch for incremental IQ differences and potential quality of life improvements. I already have a great collection of Sony FE lenses but I find the weight difference negligible between the A7RII and the Lumix S for the reason that I feel like the Sony pretty much requires people with larger hands to use the grip. When you factor that in then the weight difference is a matter of a few ounces and the volume of size is more or less about the same. With the f/1.8, f/2, some f/1.4 primes or the manual focusing Zeiss/Voigtlanders then the grip may not be needed as one could probably get by with the grip extender as most.

    I agree that Sony has the most tech innovations and it still the most cutting edge system for most purposes but I wouldn't discount what Panasonic (and other makers like Fuji) are doing. We will just have to agree to disagree on the future of DFD. I see it right now as being limited in effectiveness by processing power but as that advances there's no reason why the performance can't significantly improve in continuous AF IMO. The single point AF seems to be fine and is as fast as the best of the PDAF cameras not named A9, 1Dx, or D5. It's only the continuous that suffers ( which coincidently I've grown to love in Sony cameras for their accuracy and speed).
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Fair enough, but I'm just coming from relevant personal experience of having to work with the Sony FE series for years now specifically with their pro G-Master zooms. I don't have an issue with the primes personally though I have no use for the 400/2.8 or 600/4. I've tried the 400/28 (it was PM-R's personal copy) and it was amazing but I'm not buying one. If the 200-600 was a constant aperture then I would have purchased it this summer when I got to test one out in July... even still it's a great lens that is internal focusing and zooming if I remember correctly. I think the one caveat in the Sony system that may seal the deal with me staying put is that Tamron (interestingly enough) may have solved my biggest issue with their f/2.8 offerings. As such I've purchased the 17-28/2.8 and 28-75/2.8. I'm also planning on putting my name on the list for the 70-180/2.8 the day it's available in hopes that they'll balance well enough on the existing Sony bodies. If so then there's little reason for me to switch for incremental IQ differences and potential quality of life improvements. I already have a great collection of Sony FE lenses but I find the weight difference negligible between the A7RII and the Lumix S for the reason that I feel like the Sony pretty much requires people with larger hands to use the grip. When you factor that in then the weight difference is a matter of a few ounces and the volume of size is more or less about the same. With the f/1.8, f/2, some f/1.4 primes or the manual focusing Zeiss/Voigtlanders then the grip may not be needed as one could probably get by with the grip extender as most.

    I agree that Sony has the most tech innovations and it still the most cutting edge system for most purposes but I wouldn't discount what Panasonic (and other makers like Fuji) are doing. We will just have to agree to disagree on the future of DFD. I see it right now as being limited in effectiveness by processing power but as that advances there's no reason why the performance can't significantly improve in continuous AF IMO. The single point AF seems to be fine and is as fast as the best of the PDAF cameras not named A9, 1Dx, or D5. It's only the continuous that suffers ( which coincidently I've grown to love in Sony cameras for their accuracy and speed).

    While I can agree to all what you say, I completely disagree WRT DFD. IMO this will never become as good as PDAF/CDAF systems, even with faster and more powerful processing. It may become faster, but the conventional systems will always stay faster, because they can simply make use of the same processing power. I have to say that maybe it would become fast an accurate enough for your needs.

    But for me DFD is a DEAD END. Hopefully Panasonic once will integrate conventional AF systems ....

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    While I can agree to all what you say, I completely disagree WRT DFD. IMO this will never become as good as PDAF/CDAF systems, even with faster and more powerful processing. It may become faster, but the conventional systems will always stay faster, because they can simply make use of the same processing power. I have to say that maybe it would become fast an accurate enough for your needs.

    But for me DFD is a DEAD END. Hopefully Panasonic once will integrate conventional AF systems ....
    There was a time (not long ago) people said the same things about Sonyís hybrid AF never catching up to what Canon and Nikon were doing... itís been faster and more accurate in general than DSLRís for years now.

    The point being that I could very well see a system like DFD advancing to the point where the difference between either is negligible or imperceptible to the end user. Itís close enough now in many situations. Where it currently falters is in lower light conditions with continuous. When the math and science gets good enough you can be assured that Panasonic will get to a point where their AF system isnít a hindrance for MOST. I say that because thereís a commitment and weíve seen substantial improvements from where they were 3 years ago with the GH5 where it wasnít close to competing to now where it can meet or exceed many Mirrorless cameras that arenít Sony cameras. You donít have to believe me... the video evidence is out there. Again low light continuous AF isnít as good as Sony but I think itíll get close enough to not matter in time.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Received my S1R. Not my AF lens just yet, but I did get my Pentax adapter so, the 43mm Limited is sitting on it.

    Really nice feeling camera, with smart button layout. It more or less feels like a Nikon. I haven't dived too deep into the menus but it's all pretty intuitive. It's so easy to manually focus! Really, it's a slick camera. I like the size. If they're not going to make small lenses then don't bother making small cameras. That being said, my little Pentax pancake works well. If I ever get tired of shooting my LX, I'm sure it would be a nice walkaround kit. Sadly the S1R does not take Delta 100 or Ektachrome, so...it's mostly going to scan said films. I will be shooting it at a wedding in a couple weeks however, so it'll be interesting to see how it does.

    The sensor has some specks on it though, I ordered a cleaning kit. *shrug*
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Here is my feedback after using the S1r now for some months...
    Overall it works quite well, the IQ I am satisfied. Noise can sometimes become obvious when bringing up shaddows, so exact exposure and trying to keep ISO 1600 and below. IBIS helps.
    While I get along fine with UI I am still more used to the SL interface philosophy, with reduced numbers of buttons. The S1r has way more buttons than I need. The viewfinder I really like. C-AF, like the SL, is dissappointing IMO and has nothing to do with a professional camera.
    At the moment I use the 16-35, and 50 and 75 SL-Summicrons. If I want lighter and a flexible kit I also use the 24-105 specially during vacations. The 24-105 does quite well, I still give the edge to the Leica lenses in regards of color rendering, 3-d look and sometimes the 24-105 can show a funky bokeh (only sometimes, I assume its a question of distance and f-stop).
    The IQ specially with the Summicrons is very much to my taste, I even would say one step closer to medium format look. 2 downsides of those Leica lenses are price and weight. But I can live with the weight and price... I see it as a long term buy.
    I might go "back" to the SL2 body if it will fit my expectations because the light user interface of Leica is more suited to my working style plus here and then I might want to use an M lens.
    In regards of body size...I think with the Summicrons or M lenses the SL is prefered size, for the larger lenses (like the zooms or the 50/1.4) the S1(r) body size balances quite well.
    Overall I think the S1(r) is really a very good body.
    Last edited by Paratom; 10th October 2019 at 09:44.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Received the S Pro 50/1.4. It's a remarkable piece of glass. The AF is much faster than I expected in certain modes, but like others have suggested it is just weird in C AF. Can't trust the zone AF as far as I can tell.

    I do wish it had a little extra mojo like 1.2, or was a 55 or 58.

    I get why they're releasing zooms, but man it hurts to have no compact primes. Might just have to suck it up and get the Sigma 35/1.2 and deal with the size.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    As many know... or may be aware of due to my posts, I've had some interest in the S1R (and the Lumix S system in general) due to Sony not releasing a larger body option for those with larger hands when using the larger lenses. I jumped on the nearly 50% Black Friday deal that B&H was having on S1R kit Open Box/Demo units last week and my unit arrived a day early a few hours ago. The battery is charging fully now but while it still had juice I took the time to update firmware of the body and lens before leaving it on to allow the battery to nearly completely drain. The camera battery had ~70% charge on arrival but setting up the camera (firmware updates to body and lens) plus setting up custom buttons got me down to about 60%. checking near and far focus on objects in the house gave me a bit of non-definitive insight on the focusing speed. So far so good but I'll be working on my thoughts over time. I'm also going to pick up a Sony/Minolta A-mount adapter for the 135/1.8 that I never sold and perhaps a M-mount to L-mount adapter for my CV 35/1.2 to hold me over until I can buy a 35 APO-Summicron... unless Panasonic introduces something more interesting. In reality though I will probably buy primes nearly exclusively for this camera and perhaps sell most of my Sony primes and stick to the very good Tamron zooms on that system. HEre's a few size comparisons to the G1 and A7RII (as I keep it configured) for size and weight... the weight difference really isn't as large as some reviews will make it out to be if one keeps a grip on their Sony camera. There's an even smaller difference if you're using Generation 3 or 4 bodies.

    It’s a family affair...


    s1r_g1 by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

    Not a 100% fair comparison because of lens choices but this is how I normally configure my Sony cameras... not a lot of difference in size or weight as you’ll see in the next couple of shots.

    s1r_a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

    2.147 pounds with battery or 974 grams for those metric people

    a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr

    2.328 pounds with battery, Arca compatible plate and Peak Design anchors... or 1056 grams for the metric people. Sony is also configured for the same setup though that plate is slightly lighter. In essence the difference is negligible to me.


    s1r by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    [FONT=Avenir][FONT=arial]As many know... or may be aware of due to my posts, I've had some interest in the S1R (and the Lumix S system in general) due to Sony not releasing a larger body option for those with larger hands when using the larger lenses. I jumped on the nearly 50% Black Friday deal that B&H was having on S1R kit Open Box/Demo units last week and my unit arrived a day early a few hours ago.
    Ha, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect.
    (A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)

    (-;

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by drofnad View Post
    Ha, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect.
    (A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)

    (-;
    The refurb deal is the exact same except you get a refurb instead of an open box/demo unit. I have to pay tax on certain online electronics in my state which brought the total up to ~$2400 or so.

    Thanks for the heads up though.

    I happened to be up at 4am Thanksgiving morning to do a little food prep. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on that G9 deal when “something” told me to search and see if there was a Black Friday LUMIX S deal... I saw the body only price of ~$1800 then I humored myself and added the kit lens... I couldn’t believe it and quickly added to cart in case it was one of those computer error deals. Got a shipment confirmed notice a few hours later and signed up for tracking updates. I knew the package was moving because I got label printed and moved to FedEx facility notices later that night... apparently the people in the warehouse were working on Thanksgiving. In any case I’m very happy with the deal. Everything came as new, still sealed in original plastic, and I received an email to have the warranty extended to 3 years total upon registration. Can’t beat that price for the camera kit... I mean essentially it’s $1400 for the camera plus the usual $900 for the lens.

    I’m really anxious to take the camera through my paces and see how it goes over time. I’ll do some write-ups as I go. This will be my primary personal camera from here on out... there’s so much to like about it in the first few hours of owning it but there’s a lot to learn as well... particularly their naming conventions and where things are in the menu... that’ll all come in time with use though. I also ordered the Novoflex adapter for the Sony Zeiss 135/1.8 in A-Mount... it’s roughly the same size as the kit lens.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Rec'd my "open box" kit today too. Looked like a brand new box and everything in box looked untouched. Nothing appears to have been repacked or used. Or, maybe it went back to Panasonic and they repacked it with all new stuff. Whatever the case may be, I can't complain. Looks new to me. All firmwares were 1.0, so updated the camera & lens, did some quick pix around the house and all seems good. Now to hide the boxes before the wife has another WTF moment
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Rec'd my "open box" kit today too. Looked like a brand new box and everything in box looked untouched. Nothing appears to have been repacked or used. Or, maybe it went back to Panasonic and they repacked it with all new stuff. Whatever the case may be, I can't complain. Looks new to me. All firmwares were 1.0, so updated the camera & lens, did some quick pix around the house and all seems good. Now to hide the boxes before the wife has another WTF moment
    Your day seemed to go EXACTLY as mine but thatís what storage crates and garages are for.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I opt for the "hide in plain sight" strategy and then tell my wife she's crazy... that box has been there for months... heck years!!! I'm not sure if it works or not Also, if you can stand it, keep your office / den a complete mess. Then added box just blends in with the general disaster zone look. She may not know the details, but she does know that the credit card seems regain airline points no matter how fast she spends them. Magic. Pure magic

    Tom made a comment about the 24-105mm's bokeh (I think). Definitely some fugly-ness with busy foliage. I did some comparison shots with the Leica 90/2 APO M and Contax 100/2 Planar, both stopped down to F8 to compare bokeh. The 24-105mm has some donut bokeh tendencies, nissen rendering... for a kit zoom it doesn't matter, especially at this price, but it's something I'll be careful about.

    Camera seems nice, but really big to me. If it had a grip, it would probably be the same size & weight as my long gone Canon 1Ds3. That's not a bad thing, but I can understand why Sony A7x users might have negative reaction. I've owned a bunch of the Sony's, not my favorite camera, but they are compact and fit easily into my Leica M bags. Whereas the S1R would probably blow out a seam or two.

    Is there a way to assign EC adjustment to the round wheel on the back (the one with menu / set button in the middle)?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    I opt for the "hide in plain sight" strategy and then tell my wife she's crazy... that box has been there for months... heck years!!! I'm not sure if it works or not Also, if you can stand it, keep your office / den a complete mess. Then added box just blends in with the general disaster zone look. She may not know the details, but she does know that the credit card seems regain airline points no matter how fast she spends them. Magic. Pure magic

    Tom made a comment about the 24-105mm's bokeh (I think). Definitely some fugly-ness with busy foliage. I did some comparison shots with the Leica 90/2 APO M and Contax 100/2 Planar, both stopped down to F8 to compare bokeh. The 24-105mm has some donut bokeh tendencies, nissen rendering... for a kit zoom it doesn't matter, especially at this price, but it's something I'll be careful about.

    Camera seems nice, but really big to me. If it had a grip, it would probably be the same size & weight as my long gone Canon 1Ds3. That's not a bad thing, but I can understand why Sony A7x users might have negative reaction. I've owned a bunch of the Sony's, not my favorite camera, but they are compact and fit easily into my Leica M bags. Whereas the S1R would probably blow out a seam or two.

    Is there a way to assign EC adjustment to the round wheel on the back (the one with menu / set button in the middle)?
    My wife is something of a neat freak so nothing is out of place for long. Thatís just not a strategy I could use... hence the stashing into old boxes in crates. In reality she probably doesnít care too much as Iím not really a ďspenderĒ most of the time. My newest camera was over 4 years old.

    On a side ore I havenít taken the lens through the paces but I do plan to try out Sigma lenses tomorrow when they come to the local shop. Hopefully they bring some L-Mount stuff with them. The Tamron guy only brought Canon and Nikon junk but I already had the lenses on my Sony.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Sigma was in town today and I got to try out the 45/2.8, 14-24/2.8, and the Sigma fp in L-Mount. I also tried out the 35/1.2 in E-mount. The 35 is nothing short of amazing. The 14-24 is very good (though they have a funky little filter/gel holder system behind the rear element. The 45 was nice and on the smaller side of things. The fp was interesting... but not for me. The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that itíll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility. Iím leaning towards adding the 35/1.2 in L-mount personally.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Sigma was in town today and I got to try out the 45/2.8, 14-24/2.8, and the Sigma fp in L-Mount. I also tried out the 35/1.2 in E-mount. The 35 is nothing short of amazing. The 14-24 is very good (though they have a funky little filter/gel holder system behind the rear element. The 45 was nice and on the smaller side of things. The fp was interesting... but not for me. The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that itíll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility. Iím leaning towards adding the 35/1.2 in L-mount personally.
    Thanks for sharing. What made you pick Sigma 35 f/1.2 instead of Leica Summicron 35 f/1.8? Price?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    The Foveon camera will be released next year and Sigma has already stated that it’ll shoot files in DNG for maximum RAW compatibility.
    I sure hope it will be a FF Foveon sensor L-mount camera. I re-processed a few images from my sd Quattro tonight. I really like the sd Quattro images, but I would also love to have a higher resolution FF Foveon sensor L-mount option.

    Gary

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Thanks for sharing. What made you pick Sigma 35 f/1.2 instead of Leica Summicron 35 f/1.8? Price?
    I guess I still go back and forth but the benefits of the Sigma comes down to lens speed and price... optically and size wise, I think I still prefer the Leica. I wasnít expecting to like the Sigma as much as I did but I hadnít paid as much attention to it due to how often people mention the size.

    ...and with that said, it is (and I canít stress this enough) cartoonishly large for a 35mm lens but optically its excellent. It makes the Sony Zeiss/GM lenses that so many complained about for their larger sizes. The 14-24 and 45 are reasonably compact though for what they are.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I sure hope it will be a FF Foveon sensor L-mount camera. I re-processed a few images from my sd Quattro tonight. I really like the sd Quattro images, but I would also love to have a higher resolution FF Foveon sensor L-mount option.

    Gary
    Well there will be one. It was announced last year and further details were given in February of this year. Itíll have a 20.3 megapixel (x3) sensor for total resolution of 60.9.
    Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  20. #270
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    On another side note it looks like the local camera store is considering bringing Panasonic back. While I was in there three other people came in to look at the Sigma products and inquire about Panasonic as well which lead to a conversation about ďwhatís the big deal with people asking about Panasonic now?Ē I gave my own personal perspective and let the worker handle my S1R briefly. I also asked him to look at it this way - you carry items from all of their partners but not them because they donít have ďas strong of a photographic historyĒ but it doesnít make sense not to carry them when youíre carrying Leica, Sigma, and Olympus... and I argued they probably had a stronger video history than everyone that isnít Canon (in the digital age) and Sony of the brands that they carry. Then there was conversation of throwing Fuji in there and for lenses Iíd agree that they have the history but not for cameras to the same extent... in any case there was a bit of bias (I personally feel) but I sort of feel they had the same feelings towards Sony 3 years ago... now they canít keep Sony stuff on the shelf and the legacy brands donít move as well generally speaking. Some feel tied to brands because of SLR lenses and others due to familiarity... nothing wrong with that but hearing the argument that Panasonic needs to build out a lens lineup still while youíre promoting Canon and Nikon Mirrorless is a bit short sighted. When you take pricing out of the equation, they launched with the second largest lens lineup and they will probably maintain a healthy distance for the next couple of years of L-mount does well commercially.

    oh and on a side note I just remembered that there are at least another 6 ďdesigned for MirrorlessĒ Sigma lenses only the pipeline. The 14-24, 35, and 45 were just the first 3 announced/released. No clue on what the next lenses will be but they were described as ďabout 1/3 of what we will have to show in Mirrorless.Ē The rest of the SLR based lenses should be out by February and then the Mirrorless stiff should be releasing next year. The 14-24 was significantly smaller than the DSLR counterpart so thereís hope in seeing some newer Mirrorless designs for the L/FE Mount.
    Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

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