General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

[jdphoto]

The S1r is really v serious rig for adapted M glass. My close fam member has a Z7 which I use, I have an A7r3/m10-p and I just rented the S1r for a couple weeks. I’d venture to bet that the S1r has the exact sensor/micro lens (coverglass) as the SL2 will have. I’ve so far tried the 50 APO, 50/.95 Noct, 28 Lux, plus the D35 ZM and they are screaming on the S1r. Still corners appear better on the M10, but that’s most likely due to crop of its sensor. The Z7 handled the D35 very well, but not so well the 50 APO and 28 Lux. I have only compared by switching the same SD card out b/w cameras (except Z7) and photographing pictures on my refrigerator, but I am just so impressed with the S1R.

I almost feel like I’m holding the SL2

It's the thinner sensor stack that gives the Nikon Z7 an advantage when adapting M lenses because of oblique angles of light. The wide diameter, short flange and thin sensor cover allow light a more direct path to the sensor. I'm pretty sure the M10 has a 36x24 sensor, so wouldn't be considered "cropped". I haven't read many reviews since the S1/S1r is in stock at most retailers. Although, DXO has a sensor score for the S1 similar to the Z6. The pre hype seems to be more enthusiastic than the pre orders. Also, shooting interior pictures might not be the best comparison as you probably won't use the full throw of the lens. Try MF at all distances utilizing the the full aperture range. All cameras today are excellent. Some less slippery or more bulky than others, but if specifically adapting M lenses to another camera, then the Z 7 is hard to beat, imo.

 

[jdphoto]

Hi all -

Ok. So I’m at the stage of reading the S1R manual which usually means a purchase is imminent. Also, I have just ordered the Kipon M645SL adapter to enable me to attach the camera to my CAPcam.

I asked a question earlier about the high resolution functionality of the S1R, and whether in the future it might be possible that Panasonic would introduce the ability to set a delay between each of the 8 frames so that this function could be used with strobes.

But reading the manual something hit me - High Resoltion mode is detailed as being available with Program, Aperture, Shutter and Manual exposure modes.

Since in my environment I have complete control over ambient light, presumably if I were to use manual mode and set the shutter speed to, say, half a second, then the camera would expose for 0.5 seconds for each of the 8 frames, thus giving my Profotos time to recharge.

Can anyone confirm whether I have understood this correctly?

Kind regards,


Gerald.

/edit

Bugger. High res mode uses the electronic shutter, which cannot be used with flash

What scenario would you use this for? I'm thinking product/table top shoots? By combining multiple 8 frame images you are effectively getting a long exposure (0.5*8=4 seconds) for each sequence. What about using continuous lights or simply stitching/stacking images together for high rez and negating any sync or recharge issues you might encounter with the Lumix. You would have to use HSS to get that kind of speed, albeit, at a lower output, but Profoto HSS does not support the Lumix...yet. Go with high output continuous lights.

 

[gerald.d]

What scenario would you use this for? I'm thinking product/table top shoots? By combining multiple 8 frame images you are effectively getting a long exposure (0.5*8=4 seconds) for each sequence. What about using continuous lights or simply stitching/stacking images together for high rez and negating any sync or recharge issues you might encounter with the Lumix. You would have to use HSS to get that kind of speed, albeit, at a lower output, but Profoto HSS does not support the Lumix...yet. Go with high output continuous lights.

Hi -

Yes, product shots.

But I wouldn’t be getting a long exposure because I have zero ambient light (well, effectively zero), so each exposure would only be illuminated by the flash.

Continuous light is an option to explore. I have some LED panels that I can test, but the power just isn’t there compared to what the D1’s can output, and am not sure how they would work with the electronic shutter.

I don’t need HSS - I just need to have a programmable gap between each of the exposures for the HR stack.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

 

[iiiNelson]

Hi -

Yes, product shots.

But I wouldn’t be getting a long exposure because I have zero ambient light (well, effectively zero), so each exposure would only be illuminated by the flash.

Continuous light is an option to explore. I have some LED panels that I can test, but the power just isn’t there compared to what the D1’s can output, and am not sure how they would work with the electronic shutter.

I don’t need HSS - I just need to have a programmable gap between each of the exposures for the HR stack.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

I believe there’s an anti-flicker mode for reducing the potential for banding when using an electronic shutter... but you also have an app that’s can control the camera remotely so that you can stick to mechanical shutter. Continuous lighting is a decent option that many are using more often since there has been several strides made into affordable color stable options.

 

[gerald.d]

I believe there’s an anti-flicker mode for reducing the potential for banding when using an electronic shutter... but you also have an app that’s can control the camera remotely so that you can stick to mechanical shutter. Continuous lighting is a decent option that many are using more often since there has been several strides made into affordable color stable options.

Hi -

My understanding from the manual is that high resolution mode forces use of the electronic shutter - mechanical shutter simply is not an option. If it were, then I would have a solution where I could use the strobes by setting a slow shutter speed.

I will certainly try out continuous lighting. I have a Rosco Pro Gaffer's LitePad kit that I've not used since getting my Profoto D1's. Will definitely give it a try.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[iiiNelson]

Gordon Laing - Camera Labs Review

https://youtu.be/YCH7k9q4NHE

Outside of his repeated harping of there not being a selfie screen in his camera reviews I generally always enjoy his viewpoints. Even still it’s a valid thing to mention for people looking for those types of screens but I don’t know that this is the ideal system to vlog with given the size. If a person wanted to conduct interviews and check framing then there’s the very capable LUMIX Sync app or external monitors that can assist in both. To me this is largely a non-issue and if using a lens in the 28mm range or wider, holding the camera at full extension typically will get you a selfie viewpoint without need to critically focus. In any case, it’s yet another largely positive review of the camera system which presents another option to strongly take into consideration.

 

[iiiNelson]

New firmware released.

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-releases-the-firmware-update-1-1-for-the-s1-and-s1r-cameras/

 

[iiiNelson]

DPReview review... overall it’s very positive with a few AF quirks for continuous shooting in video.

https://youtu.be/S34Tp7czj74

 

[biglouis]

DPReview review... overall it’s very positive with a few AF quirks for continuous shooting in video.

https://youtu.be/S34Tp7czj74

Actually, the review exposes the one flaw in all Panasonic cameras - their proprietary DFD AF system.

I was hoping that perhaps it had got better with these FF models by Nichols seems to confirm that the continuous AF for stills and video is still unreliable in his review.

It was this unreliability which lead to my departure from the Panasonic m43rds system. It was fine for static subjects and I used Panasonic cameras extensively for architectural and urban landscape photography for the best part of 10 years. It was when I tried to use it for wildlife and especially birds in flight that I became aware of how bad DFD was.

It pains me to be negative towards Panasonic cameras in this way because the ergonomics, the sensors and the lenses are very good indeed. But my experience of using them for fast moving subjects was bad enough for me to move systems and Nichols in his review suggests that if action/wildlife is your need then there are more responsive AF systems out there and sadly I agree with him.

LouisB

 

[iiiNelson]

Actually, the review exposes the one flaw in all Panasonic cameras - their proprietary DFD AF system.

I was hoping that perhaps it had got better with these FF models by Nichols seems to confirm that the continuous AF for stills and video is still unreliable in his review.

It was this unreliability which lead to my departure from the Panasonic m43rds system. It was fine for static subjects and I used Panasonic cameras extensively for architectural and urban landscape photography for the best part of 10 years. It was when I tried to use it for wildlife and especially birds in flight that I became aware of how bad DFD was.

It pains me to be negative towards Panasonic cameras in this way because the ergonomics, the sensors and the lenses are very good indeed. But my experience of using them for fast moving subjects was bad enough for me to move systems and Nichols in his review suggests that if action/wildlife is your need then there are more responsive AF systems out there and sadly I agree with him.

LouisB

Yeah I sort of agree but until I get one to test for myself it’s kinda hard to make a decision. Many people have extremely positive reviews about them but the AF is the elephant in the room that’s consistently harped on. For professional work a person needs to be able to trust it and Panasonic might need to bite the bullet and use a hybrid PDAF/DFD system in an action camera line.

I really want to LOVE this camera because it checks every box except AF (and an option for the focus direction that can be added in firmware) seemingly for me.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

A comment to Panasonic AF:
It depends on what you shoot. I've used Panasonic cameras for ten years, and since the GH3, I've found AF extremely fast and very precise. However, I rarely shoot bursts and even for moving subjects, I use AF-S. That is possible simply because the AF is so fast with good lenses.

They don't make cameras for sports and action, and I don't think that's their aim. However, they are the only cameras that I've used where I can confidently jam the shutter release through in one go and be reasonably sure that I've got the subject in focus. The best lens for this in my experience is the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, but other MFT high end lenses mostly work fine too.

AF for video. Anybody doing video on anything resembling an advanced level does it manually, and Panasonic knows that. When that is said, I have used AF with Panasonic cameras shooting video, and it works if the scene isn't too complicated. On the other hand, it's not very useful. With video, I have to watch where the focus is anyway, so doing it manually works just as fine.

I agree with Louis though that Panasonic may not be the best cameras for BIF.

 

[dwood]

Roger C. at Lensrentals had this to say regarding AF:

"The question I had going in was how well the autofocus would work, and after 1 day I was frustrated with it. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight. Honestly, though, if you aren’t willing to do that, don’t rent the camera, you won’t be happy."

 

[mjr]

Morning

I may be a complete dumb ***, but for me, understanding how a camera really works and how to get the best from it takes a little time, setup with button allocation and all that is normally an hour or so but it can take me weeks of use before I fully understand how different modes work and where a cameras strengths and weaknesses are. I put zero faith in any online first look or "review" as they are very rarely focussed on passing on decent information, much more geared towards revenue and clicks. If one says AF is lacking, then they all jump on the bandwagon.

Personally anyone who has held the camera for a day can't judge how a camera works, but that's maybe just me. This dude has had the camera much longer and states that for stills, the tracking is great, a horse at a decent pace with every shot in focus, sounds ok to me.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPgsw1qiInw not that I'm listening to his opinion either to be honest, it's all noise until I have it in my hand and shooting what I shoot, then I can judge for myself.

I had a day in the UK last week on the way to Iraq, found a store with both bodies and 1 of the kit zooms, body felt really nice in the hand, I like the size but as I couldn't buy the 50 and the 70-200 at that store, I decided it wasn't worth taking the zoom as I know I won't enjoy it so stuck with the GFX this trip. I will pick one up when I next return home in a couple of months.

For those who have one, I hope it meets your expectations and you enjoy using it!

Mat

 

[iiiNelson]

AF for video. Anybody doing video on anything resembling an advanced level does it manually, and Panasonic knows that. When that is said, I have used AF with Panasonic cameras shooting video, and it works if the scene isn't too complicated. On the other hand, it's not very useful. With video, I have to watch where the focus is anyway, so doing it manually works just as fine.

I agree with Louis though that Panasonic may not be the best cameras for BIF.

That’s not 100% true anymore when it comes to people doing event and/or wedding video. Many people expect these types of cameras to have rock solid AF on a gimbal. Few outside of extremely high end videographers are going to have focus pullers. Most are using and relying on rock solid Sony or Canon systems for video. Many love the GH line and use it for many things but they were hoping this camera could solve the video continuous focus. I used to be a single point autofocus shooter (on Autofocus Cameras) until I got the A7RII and saw how high the hit rate was in continuous AF mode even when in single photo drive mode. I rarely shoot burst and don’t really care so much about burst speeds in general... it just means I’ll have a crap ton of images to delete. I do care about rock solid continuous focus modes. I care about tracking as an equally important feature. If a camera does neither reliably I can’t use it on paid jobs where autofocus is expected. I can use it for my own personal use and there’s a chance that the Panasonic may become a personal system for me if it all doesn’t shake out and I’ll invest in a couple of newer generation Sony bodies for actual work. I like a lot about the system for personal use... just done know if I could depend on it long term.

I acknowledge there could be some user one user error in the DPReview video review - which is why I won’t make decisions one way or another until I can get my own hands on it. I know Chris Nichols is primarily a Nikon shooter and approaches his reviews and usability based on what’s second nature for him. That being said I do believe he is mostly fair and honest in his assessments based on his own user experiences. Jordan Drake is a diehard Panasonic GH user and lives them.

 

[biglouis]

Roger C. at Lensrentals had this to say regarding AF:

"The question I had going in was how well the autofocus would work, and after 1 day I was frustrated with it. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight. Honestly, though, if you aren’t willing to do that, don’t rent the camera, you won’t be happy."

All I can say is that I desperately tried every AF tweak, including those in an AF primer published by Panasonic and the net result was pretty much the same. Bird portraits: fantastic; birds in flight: about a 10% keeper rate. My new kit achieves long sequences of in focus images when panning and shooting and I get about 80% keeper rate. Something I rarely saw GH5 or G9.

I have no doubt that for landscapes, portraits, still life and even at a stretch reportage the cameras will be fantastic (my GF1, GH2, GX8, G85, and G9 all were) but without banging on about it, DFD for fast moving subjects is unreliable, imho and you can tinker to your hearts content but it won't make much of a difference.

LouisB

 

[Paratom]

All I can say is that I desperately tried every AF tweak, including those in an AF primer published by Panasonic and the net result was pretty much the same. Bird portraits: fantastic; birds in flight: about a 10% keeper rate. My new kit achieves long sequences of in focus images when panning and shooting and I get about 80% keeper rate. Something I rarely saw GH5 or G9.

I have no doubt that for landscapes, portraits, still life and even at a stretch reportage the cameras will be fantastic (my GF1, GH2, GX8, G85, and G9 all were) but without banging on about it, DFD for fast moving subjects is unreliable, imho and you can tinker to your hearts content but it won't make much of a difference.

LouisB

I am not saying the s1r is a sports camera, but so far I am more surprised in the positive direction about the AF.

 

[ptomsu]

I actually watched the video from Darryl Carey that Mat thankfully posted earlier (here the link again if you want to find immediately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPgsw1qiInw

and I must say I fully agree with Mat. The S1/S1R seem - by the result od this video do an excellent job WRT AF-C in video as well as in still photo, but this seems to be based on FW1.0.

I fully believe in what Darryl thinks about the S1/S1R - he is a long year Nikon shooter and especially the D850 and it's AF system is one of the best on the market, especially also for AF-C. If he is now selling all his Nikon gear and fully jumping on the Panasonic system that tells me a lot.

The S1R and L-mount lenses are high on my radar, I will definitely loan this gear to test for my purposes and then make a final decision, but from what I have seen and heard so far this system sounds really super as an around hybrid system. I will keep my m43 gear for now (and maybe even for longer) just to have a really small and light travel system, but who knows if I find a somehow similar configuration size wise with the Panasonic L-mount cameras and lenses this even might replace my Olympus for travel purposes. I could see myself being more than happy on casual travel with just the S1R and the kit zoom and when on serious travel for say Safari then weight and size is no longer such a big concern anyway as then most shooting would be done out of car and/or even with tripod for filming.

So here we go, thanks again MAT for this post and to some who do not so much believe in the newer Panasonic (AF) capabilities maybe trying again could help :thumbs:

 

[faberryman]

I fully believe in what Darryl thinks about the S1/S1R - he is a long year Nikon shooter and especially the D850 and it's AF system is one of the best on the market, especially also for AF-C. If he is now selling all his Nikon gear and fully jumping on the Panasonic system that tells me a lot.

Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two f/4 zooms and a 50mm prime. Maybe in a couple of years when they have their lens line fleshed out. This is just GAS.

 

[iiiNelson]

Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two zooms and a 50mm prime.

Maybe he doesn’t want a DSLR... maybe he believes more in the direction that Panasonic is going in above Nikon... there’s a lot of obvious (even if subjective) reasons he’d dump his Nikon... especially since he documented the reasons for his own personal use...

 

[Greg Haag]

Honestly, what images can he make with the S1R that he can't make with the D850? The only reason it occurs to me such a wholesale shift is warranted is if you want to use Leica SL lenses exclusively. All the Sigma lenses are available in Nikon mount. And Panasonic just offers two f/4 zooms and a 50mm prime. Maybe in a couple of years when they have their lens line fleshed out. This is just GAS marketing.

I am not sure for him, but for myself, there are 2 things that are important to me that were not an option on the D850 (which I think is an amazing camera and that I believe can do some things better than the S1R). The high resolution mode and the ability to use this on the Cambo Actus. I will not receive my camera until tomorrow so I have not yet seen the high res on my files.