General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

[ptomsu]

From my perspective there are few real surprises today with the next NEW NEW gear . I had a S1R and used it exclusively with the Leica SL lenses ..mostly with the 50/1.4 SL Summilux . I did not use the pixel shifting multishot as I am not really a landscape /tripod shooter . The image quality produced by the sensor is terrific ..would you expect something different ?

Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

Panasonic has done a good job in setting up the S1R and the files produced have a very linear tone curve . I found them easy to adjust to taste . The more important issue regarding image quality would be “Are you going to buy the Leica Glass ? “ Its very expensive .

Right now at 47MP FF the S1R with the Leica SL prime lenses is the best available in a FF camera . I also have no doubt that several MF alternatives will be noticeably better .

I sent the S1R back to B&H because I did not enjoy the size, weight,handling,menu system or the very weak AF system ...but I have no doubts about the IQ.

Roger,

would be interested why you call the AF system very weak - have similar thoughts but would like to know your view!

And how you would compare it to the AF of the Z7 - which I find quite good since the latest FW update.

Thanks

Peter

 

[glenerrolrd]

My perspective on the S1R AF is based on expectations of the “best of the best “ .

Focus Tracking -- completely inadequate compared to a D850 or D5 . Essentially as expected for a CDAF system .

Eye Auto Focus -- S1R has facial recognition but not eye AF .

The S1R AF is fast and accurate on static subjects ...so it depends on your requirements and expectations . Of course we worked around AF limitations for years and with practice and good technique . For many sports you can predict the desired plan of focus and guess ..but if you want dozens of sharp captures to choose from you need the type of AF system Nikon and Canon use .

Eye AF is new to me but highly desirable for capturing fast moving grandkids .

The S1R was built to be an all purpose , durable and expensive tool . It is loaded with features beyond my needs and desire to learn . It just doesn t fit as a special purpose full size FF camera for me . I would rather use MF for situations I can best control and where IQ is more important than size and weight . Or the M10 for street and travel . (the only limit on the M10 is me but I haven t found a way to buy more endurance ,speed and motivation ...although I keep trying ?)

But like most I don t follow a rigid “purpose driven “ approach in selecting gear and will probably end up with a Leica SL2 which I doubt will have a AF any different from the S1R .

 

[Paratom]

:worthless:

Does anyone here actually own and shoot with these cameras (S1 and/or S1R). Five pages of "general thoughts" and few photos. Lloyd Chambers keeps raving about multi-shot high-res mode but I'd rather see the results from real photographers here on GetDPI.

Joe

There is an image thread with s1/s1r images.
I am quite happy with it, I also got used to the size, specially since the lenses are not small either.

 

[JoelM]

Getting the aesthetic you prefer is about finding the lenses that match your vision . Having used Leica lenses extensively on a variety of different camera bodies (M,SL,S,Nikon D810 etc ) ..its the lens signature that matters . The sensor and more likely the in camera profiling and processing will greatly affect the contrast and color saturation . This along with the post processing results in the final aesthetic .

So, I agree with the first statement wholly. Leica hasn't had a lens signature in a LONG time and that is one of the reasons I left Leica after 42 years. I actually have one Leica lens left that I use on the Sony cameras and it is a 1964 Tele Elmarit that is stunning. I've done side by side comparisons with the ASPH 90mm Summicron and sharpness and contrast are equal but rendering is much more to my taste with the TE. I believe that with modern cameras and lenses, the camera manipulation of the image, with the knowledge of the lens being used, is more a factor than the actual lens itself. The software is a major player in the "Leica look". They have gone to the way of the other manufacturer's style by focusing () lens design entirely around image sharpness and bokeh. If you've ever read some of the earlier Leica books, 1970s to 1990s, they explain what the Leica lens designers are aiming for. They were taking a round lens, to get a 3 dimensional image and display it as a rectangle in 2 dimensions.

Ah, sorry about the rant. I'm not angry, just reporting my view of a time lost.

Cheers,

Joel

 

[glenerrolrd]

I guess we will just have to disagree . My conclusions are based on using Leica lenses on a variety of different cameras /sensors . Some Leica lenses have stronger signatures and are more easily identified . Example Leica R 80/1.4 .

As newer lenses begin to reach perfection levels in edge to edge sharpness ..its harder . However if you compared the 120/2.5 S lens with the 100/2 S (as we did yesterday ) you can see a very clear difference in contrast, color saturation and bokeh . These differences are clear on both a Leica S 006 CCD and the S 007 CMOS ..very different sensor designs and tuning by Leica /Adobe .

Lens design has reached a point where the ability to render fine detail is not a major differentiating factor . Having spent a ridiculous amount of time on this subject ....you have to look closely at attributes beyond sharpness.

As a more frequently encountered comparison ..look at any Zeiss lens compared to a Nikon or Canon lens .

 

[iiiNelson]

I'm aware of the "Fun with..." thread with only 35 posts and a few photos, many from you. I'm just surprised that a thread on "General thoughts..." now encompasses 5 pages and 226 posts, with very few photos. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'll let you talk amongst yourselves. I'm watching from a safe distance.

Joe

I can’t speak for others, only myself. I have/had great interest in this system but decided against purchasing anything until the fall. I want to see what Sony does next as I’m still financially invested into that ecosystem. The S1 likely comes up a bit short in some key areas for my uses (reliable AF-C) but I really like the design ethos of it overall. I’m still awaiting what improvements are made in the time being and how the other lenses from panasonic perform and what gets announced next. So in short I’m posting because there remains a level of interest in this system for me but Sony introducing a few things with their next bodies (larger size for when using “pro” lenses namely along with a few nice to haves like 4K120) would likely push me to just upgrade my existing bodies and forget about Panasonic for now.

 

[iiiNelson]

Firmware Updates

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...g9-g90g91g95-g80g81g85-and-gx9-300878134.html

 

[iiiNelson]

Tests with the version 1.1 firmware.

https://youtu.be/_7gJpT6znAs

 

[ptomsu]

I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

So simple some things can turn out :thumbs:

Just some samples from the Z7 just to prove how wonderful that camera renders the last one's in this thread, from now under Nikon

2019-06-26_0152.jpg by ptomsu, on Flickr

2019-06-26_0078.jpg by ptomsu, on Flickr

 

[iiiNelson]

I tested the S1R yesterday in comparison with the Nikon Z7.

While the EVF is superior in the S1R I found the differences not really mind-blowing compared to the Z7 - which means the Z7 already has a very good and really very useable EVF - at least for me.

What I found turning my interest for immediately down was the S1R's size and weight and handling thereof. The Z7 with 2.8/24-70 S lens felt so much lighter and better useable than the S1R with the 4/24-105 kit lens mounted on it.

I did not do any real AF comparisons after that as the Z7 performed marvellously even with eye AF and maybe the S1R's DFD is as good or will become as good with future FW.

But for me the size of that S1R with any L-mount lens attached makes this a no go for the future. Thank you indeed Panasonic !!!!!!

So simple some things can turn out :thumbs:

Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.

Whenever i tried the Z cameras (3 times so far) I found them to be nearly the same size as my Sony cameras without the possibility to add a grip. This was a turnoff for me personally as I already own the Sony and was curious if there was anything to the people that stated it was “so much more comfortable to hold.” Its slightly larger yes but my ring finger and pinky still hang off the camera like they do aim the Sony without a grip.

I agree that the EVF is good enough on most cameras but I also felt the raving over the Leica SL EVF was overblown too. I could see a difference for sure but it wasn’t night and day for me personally. It didn’t make me magically decide that I could finally move to an EVF... I decided that more than 10 years ago that they were getting to be good enough, though they’re certainly better now.

Lastly, I appreciate the added size of the Panasonic but truthfully I didn’t switch to Mirrorless solely for size concerns. It was a factor in a sense for Micro 4/3 and the travel I did back then but I switched to Mirrorless because I though (correctly) that it was the future and presented a wealth of benefits to my own workflow. Again battery life wasn’t a concern for me and many of the arguments people had made against Mirrorless weren’t factors for me. I just made the options work. I have different needs/desires now but for travel I’m still good with say a Micro 4/3 or APS-C camera. If I switch from Sony the only options I’ll likely consider (still) are Fuji or Panasonic... Canon is a distant possibility depending on how their Mirrorless “1Dx” turns out. I didn’t really care for the Nikon personally (its a me thing more than the camera itself) but it’s “fine” for others.

 

[ptomsu]

Fair enough... though I firmly believe just about any camera can deliver those type of results.

After trying the Z7 I doubt that "ANY" camera can produce these results. What I showed are the full images, but you can crop in on the Z7 and there is still all that detail at 100% and also at higher ISO there is no noise. This could be only achieved with a Sony A7RIII, a Nikon D850 or maybe a Panasonic S1R, if the right lenses are available and used.

And this shows the whole issue

1) the A7RIII would b e too small for my taste while a decent native 2.8/24-70 lens would be available
2) the D850 as a camera would be able to achieve such results, but definitely not the even latest F-mount 2.8/24-70
3) The Panasonic S1R - if such a lens existed could maybe do that BUT

a) this lens is not even available today
b) the S1R - as I pointed out while being for sure a capable camera - is definitely not for me - not from size, not from weight and not from the operability

So what remains (for now) is the Z7 - for me at least .....

 

[iiiNelson]

Updated video

https://youtu.be/8k3a7LNe0Mw

 

[ptomsu]

Updated video

https://youtu.be/8k3a7LNe0Mw

I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

 

[iiiNelson]

I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I don’t think there’s anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 would’ve been a direct comparison. It’s worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isn’t worth complaining about how they display data. I’d argue the Panasonic is “cleaner” to me but either works.

Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more “Canon like” in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but it’s not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.

 

[ptomsu]

Probably is just a case of limited access to Sony lenses. I don’t think there’s anything malicious in the decision. The Sony 50/1.4 is more videocentric and the 24-105/4 would’ve been a direct comparison. It’s worth something in any case IMO. For me, the Panasonic or Sony way isn’t worth complaining about how they display data. I’d argue the Panasonic is “cleaner” to me but either works.

Sony color is warmer and Panasonic is more neutral. I heavily prefer the Panasonic look and I personally hate that Sony chose to implement a warmer base tone that is more “Canon like” in the A7III. Sales would say many prefer it though but it’s not for me at all. I generally am not a huge fan of base Canon color but I base that off of the skintone of people of generally shoot (and past experience with shooting Canon). I have to do more color work for Canon colors IMO to get it to taste which usually involves desaturating and bringing down the heavily boosted red channels. Not a chore really on doing a few headshots... usually takes a couple glasses of whisky and the right frame of mind on a wedding.

What i hope Richard does is perform the same test in less than ideal lighting to stress the Panasonic before coming to a conclusion. The Nikon 2.x firmware is definitely better in tests but most reviewers still put it behind the A7III so if the Panasonic can keep up with the A7III or beat it in some cases then maybe the choice in camera becomes just a personal decision or which body/lenses a personal wants to use - which is what we all hope and desire. As for size/weight the S1/R is a 30g difference between my A7RII with grip and batteries... I suspect if I had the newest cameras the Sony might be a bit heavier in that configuration... but would give so many more images from the Sony battery of the Panasonic is in boost mode.

Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.

 

[jdphoto]

Peter,
I too, opted for the Z7 over the S1/r because of lenses and size. The Z7 is also imo, the best for adapting any lens because of the specs. Nikon's S lenses are the best i've used in any camera...including Leica.

 

[iiiNelson]

Maybe I would need to shoot the S1R with latest FW for some longer time as I did with the Z7. Believe me, I actually would love to love the Panasonic's but so far from what I have seen I am not convinced. Maybe I have to just wait a bit longer till more native L mount lenses are available both from Panasonic and Sigma.

And as I said test the S1R in some real shooting situations.

Maybe, but I’m not trying to convince you one way or another.

If you feel most comfortable with the Z7 then go with it and don’t look back. The Panasonic isn’t going to get any smaller and OSPDAF isn’t going to come from a firmware update if you feel you need it. I’m sure the Sigma lenses will be large too and you seem to be adverse to using large lenses. Personally I’d just sell the Leica M lenses you don’t see yourself using and buy into the Z ecosystem. No need to continue looking if the Z already meets what you want from a camera IMO. Nothing wrong with choosing what you like or what works for you.

Personally im still waiting until the Fall before I make any decisions. Sony (hopefully) would’ve announced the A9II and A7SIII by then so I can make a more informed decision in either direction. Fuji May have reduced the price on the GFX50S further by then as well. Time will tell but that’s what my decision will be based on.

 

[Paratom]

I cannot understand why Richard did not test both cameras at 1080/60p and why for Panasonic he uses the kit zoom while on the A7III the 1.8/55. This sets so much inconsistency from the very beginning - well another Youtuber :thumbdown: He has done better reviews

The FW update seems to have brought some improvements to the S1 WRT AF, but at 4k/24p the Sony still wins hands down. I also cannot get friends with the way Panasonic shows the AF information while working - this cross in a square for defining the eye that should be sharp is just very misleading for my taste - I highly prefer the way Sony or Nikon show the AF information.

WRT WB (he used Auto WB in both cameras) I prefer the warmer results from the Sony, although I guess this should be easily adjustable in camera or in prost.

From what I have seen I still prefer the current Nikon Z lineup with latest FW :clap:

For me both the 24-105 Pana and also the Leica 24-90 are excellent midrangezooms, even though not with a constant f2.8, but then with a very useful range.
The Nikon Z is certainly much smaller body, eventhough I would say as soon as you use larger lenses the s1(r) offers a more stable grip in my hands. The 35 and 50 Z-Nikons are "bargains" compared to the Leica counterparts IMO. Then right now there are not many Z lenses available, but I bet there will follow more soon.
Where I experienced differences between the Z6/7 and the Panasonic are colors. I still feel to see that typical yellowish Nikon color sometimes in greens and also sometimes in skintones. Overall I feel I can get faster colors to my taste with the Panasonic. Probably a matter of taste and postprocessing skills.

For my part I finally stayed with the S1r because I allready owned some SL-lenses which I really like and I love the flexibility to be able to also use other Leica lenses (CL/M/S), plus I really like those Leica SL lenses, even though they are quite high priced.
I must say that on the other side the Z-system has a lot positive things, specially the size of the body, the 24-70/4.0 is a super compact FF-combo, the AF is fast, the 35 and 50 are very good IMO.

 

[iiiNelson]

Additional tests and thoughts on the new firmware v1.2.

https://youtu.be/CphwVNgX32s

 

[ron787]

I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?

Hello,
I'm not sure how old this post is, but I thought that I would make a brief note in re the S1r. I'd been a Leica SL user, as well as a Sony A7rIII and Fuji GFX 50s user and so on, for a an unhappy interval, until the Panasonic S1r came along. While I still own the A7rIII—sold the others—and a bunch of GM lenses, the camera—too small—is rarely used nowadays. The S1r, on the other hand, is my favorite. Why? Ergonomics, analog controls (lots of dedicated and programmable buttons and levers) IBIS, and most of all its stunning IQ. So from my perspective, the S1r is beyond intriguing, and approaches nirvana.