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Thread: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

    What are your thoughts?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

    What are your thoughts?
    Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
    I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
    This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :-).

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
    I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
    This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :-).
    For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.).

    I am aware that this system will be heavier (much heavier) than my m43 gear but for the occasions I want to shoot this I would not care1
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.). ...
    Is that all? LOL!


    We are such camera addicts.

    I'm pretty happy with what I have now. Never say never, but this new Panasonic system is not interesting to me ... I already had the SL and loved it, used it a lot, and then found it really isn't what I want now. Interests and ideas change. The CL I replaced it with is getting the bulk of my use, although I'm heading off on a cruise and leaving it behind—I'll carry only the Light L16 and a table-top tripod for this trip, in addition to my iPhone.

    And I'm working on my current fantasy ... an Instax SQ instant film back for my Hasselblad V system ... and enjoying/using the other gear I have a lot at present.

    But the Panasonic S1/S1R look good. Their Lumix L1 was excellent in that day too, and still is (my friend back East is still doing assignments with the one I sold him).

    onwards, G
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFS...em-lbcastemail

    After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFS...em-lbcastemail

    After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...
    So he's pissed off because he wasn't invited to the party?

    Honestly, he lists every area where the S1/R is superior to one or more other cameras and finds a disadvantage. He also keeps repeating that only three lenses are available, which is an outright lie. There's a reason why Panasonic joined forces with Leica.

    Here's an example:
    He complains about the 180fps 1080p, and it isn't perfect. But how many non-Panasonic cameras below $5,000 offer 180fps 1080p?

    Sorry, the guy is nothing but a Youtube clown, and I'm ashamed that I listened to his drivel for more than 15 minutes.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I turned him off after about 80 seconds. Drivel, whine whine, drivel drivel. Sheesh.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFS...em-lbcastemail

    After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...
    Please be considerate and list the name of the author(s) with the link so that we can decide whether to click on it or not. Thanks.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    At one stage he actually said "no one will buy this camera"....what else do you need to know?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Folks - WRT Northrop video, sorry for posting this!

    Have had so much negative feedback already that I will also no longer listen to him!

    Best regards

    Peter

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    A simple solution. I always have sound off when clicking on YouTube.
    Then leave that web page. Problem solved.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Regarding Tony Northrup - he puts out "clickbait" type videos about once a month to elicit a response in traffic. It's a good model for him because he can spread the effects of the video after he either plays victim to the backlash within the next week or two or has people agree with him and turn it around to spread the idea that people interested in the camera are a "handful of crazy people." Either way, "he wins" on some level. Personally, I've written a long response in the past to one of his videos that highlighted this exact thing and WHY he receives the response he gets by making bold blanket statements that are more subjective to the user than factual across the board... and how many photographers across the world do things with "lesser cameras" by finding workarounds. IMO there's no doubt that things like advanced subject tracking, eye AF, advanced video features, etc. in premium cameras make the jobs easier (provided they operate as advertised) but I've shot concerts with Leica M's, Safari's using manual focusing lenses for 90%+ of shots, street photography with telephotos, and all kinds of things I wasn't supposed to be able to do (according to some) without electronic aids. All that being said, I'm in a position financially to afford higher end cameras so that's the route I usually take when the upgrade is actually worth it to me for what I personally do and many of the electronic aids like Eye AF are invaluable to me in many areas now that I'm used to it. For me it comes down to I can offload worrying about focusing and spend that time getting a few extra shots with different framing within the same time constraints because I do have a level of trust for my gear. That's really the underlying purpose of higher end gear - to make it easier to get THE shot.

    One of my personal internal goals is to reduce the negativity around me because there seems to be way too much of it worldwide in real life. The last thing I want/need is to have to see/hear it online in my free time... so I'm taking a more solutions-oriented approach - even in my critical discussions. It's easy for me to pick apart most cameras on what's lacking but I stand by my consistent thoughts that there aren't many bad cameras these days... just a lot of subjective deal breakers across the board based on the user.

    Regarding the Lumix S series here are my initial impressions based on the information passively absorbed (and forgotten) thus far.

    Image Quality: The JPEG engine seems to be pretty good and exactly what I'd expect
    from a "FF G9" if you will. There seems to be a good amount of dynamic range captured in many of the landscape shots and shadow recovery (based on hands-on impressions) seems to be good even within the JPEG's. Most people also commented on the excellent color and black and white profiles that don't seem to require much editing and this is a thing I've always liked about Panasonic cameras going back 10+ years to the G1 for me.

    Regarding ISO performance the S1R is relatively clean at 12800 and usable to 25600 IMO. The S1 is relatively clean at 25600 and still usable out to 102400 IMO. This is a great thing as it puts the high ISO performance roughly a stop ahead of the direct competition and makes the reality of the f/4 lenses available at launch matter just a little bit less as of now.

    Body: It's a mixed bag but most things have been extremely positive when it comes to the build and the size of the body when used with the lenses that are on the larger side of things. This is probably my biggest "complaint" of my Sony system in that I feel like the grip is always "required" if you've limited your kit to the Sony Zeiss or Sony GM lenses as I currently do. Another highlight is that the layout and haptic feel of the cameras has earned high marks from the testers that come in a variety of sized from average sized women to larger men (I'm 6'3" and about 230 so I like some size). It seems like many in the industry are driving the point that there is room for some larger mirrorless bodies when professional photographers are the primary demographic. Again this camera continues the "FF G9" brand ethos and design.

    Lenses: Mixed bag from those that have not used them and mostly positive for those that have.

    In short, those that have used them stated that they are high quality and cover the basic working range of 95% of all photography with the obvious omission that none of the lenses will fully satisfy landscape or wildlife photographers just yet. The Lumix S Pro lenses (currently the 50/1.4 and 70-200/4) are "certified by Leica" and in that regard, it is clear that Panasonic and Leica didn't want to create any confusion in L-Mount lens pricing strategy between Panasonic branded Leica lenses and actual real Leica lenses.

    The seemingly loudest voices with the boldest statements tend to be the ones that haven't used the camera or lenses (per usual for the internet). A lot of this is coming from a place of old guard thinking based on how Canon and Nikon structured their own lineup with faster/more exotic glass being the "pro" lenses and slower apertures representing "consumer" grade lenses... in their eyes. It's a huge reason why some people gave Nikon "grief" for introducing f/1.8 lenses or balk at Sony pricing the 55/1.8 at $999 at launch when their old "nifty 50" only costs them $150... well all lenses aren't created equally but I'd agree that there is a point of diminishing returns as you go higher end in ANY market. A Mercedes or BMW isn't three times as reliable as your average Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc. but you pay for prestige, a level of luxury, the name, and the premium service experiences. The Lumix S Pro 50/1.4 will likely approach or maybe exceed Zeiss Otus performance but the Sigma Art 50 comes close too... the point is to pick what works for you but I expect a lot of the higher price of the lenses is that they are designed to be optimal for photo AND video. No one that I'm aware of (besides maybe Sony thus far) has kept this part of mirrorless lens design for hybrid shooters in mind like Panasonic.

    Regarding the pricing on the body and lenses, I'm sure there's an "L-Mount licensing tax" that Panasonic and Sigma will likely have to pay Leica to remain within the alliance. It is what it is and the price is the price. If one can afford it then great but if not there are other capable FF options from other companies.

    Features: I'm not a huge video guy but the features provided seem to be capable with a few workarounds. If the video performance is the primary concern the GH line may still be better... or just invest into a dedicated video camera and stop compromising as much. One exciting thing is that this camera will receive access to the paid V-LOG upgrade (what's in the Panasonic Varicam line) and not V-LOG L (whats in the GH line) so that tells you where they eventually see the Lumix S series going and which market it'll play in.

    EVF industry and class-leading... nothing else needs to be said.

    Battery life... this may be the most power hungry camera on the market as it has a battery with nearly 50% more amperage capacity than generation 3 Sony bodies and almost half the CIPA rated battery life it seems. Thankfully there are multiple powering options through USB, camera grips, and battery packs. Not a serious concern of mine personally as I'm not a high volume shooter usually unless it's a wedding.

    One thing that got me extremely excited in the leaked specs (prior to official announcement) was the inclusion of 2:1 and 65:24 crop in camera. Been asking for this from Sony in their R bodies for a good 2+ years now... still hasn't happened. Igenerallydothis
    inpost when wanted for some shots but having it in camera so I can get the framing right in camera is huge.

    Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

    Competition: My first thought when these cameras were announced and seeing the general praise they've received by actual users is that Panasonic JUST gave Sony permission to answer with R/S variants of the A9, then gave CaNikon permission to release higher-end RF and Z camera variants sooner rather than later. This is a great thing and one of the reasons that I'm going to hold off until the summertime at best before seriously considering any switch from Sony (and also because I feel like the cameras won't' do as well commercially as Panasonic hopes initially until some price drops/rebates happen). The bottom line is that people have yet another serious option to cross-shop in their research so while I don't agree initially that this is really "full frame without compromise" (because nothing really is uncompromised) I do feel like this may be full frame with minimal compromises.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    <snip>

    Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

    <snip>
    Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
    "DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

    I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
    On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

    The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
    "DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

    I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
    On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

    The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).
    Hello and yes I'm aware of Panasonic's autofocus technology.

    The comparison really comes down to camera makers like Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. that use a hybrid combination of PDAF (reacts faster and attacks focus acquisition more assuredly in general) and CDAF (tends to be more accurate but is constantly "hunting/pulsing/pumping" in continuous focus) versus Panasonic that uses CDAF based system with some "machine learning" in DFD involved that has enhanced focus acquisition speed versus the typical based CDAF system.

    The issue for me personally comes down purely to continuous AF/Tracking speed and video AF where Panasonic has earned their questionable reputation SPECIFICALLY in these modes compared to Canon "Dual Pixel" or Sony "4D" tracking (all marketing speak for proprietary advanced AF like DFD for Panasonic). I've had good luck in single point AF generally speaking with Panasonic cameras but really that's my biggest concern about these cameras. All that said I haven't made any final conclusions until I can try them for myself but it is a concern based on past models and the complaints of many Lumix GH/G owners.

    I don't have any strong comments towards Olympus... I don't own any of their cameras any longer and the one that I did - I had a bad experience with and will likely never buy another... I'll leave it at that.

    So I don't totally disagree with your assessments but I still have my concern (based on recent Panasonic flagship cameras using the same technology) because I saw some videos where the cameras were slower to focus (mind you using preproduction firmware), that hunted a bit in practical photographic applications and still had the same pulsing issues associated with any CDAF systems... I also can get this with my Sony when I drop below f/8 (because I don't have an A9 that's sensitive down to f/11 and soon to be f/16 with a firmware update) so it can be a problem there too once outside the range where PDAF is active.

    Taken from their press release:

    Panasonic’s advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industry’s fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Taken from their press release:

    Panasonic’s advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industry’s fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.
    This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!
    Well, that's my personal concern (as stated above in my processed thoughts from the info I could gather online) as it applies to video AF performance AND continuous AF performance. I don't know that they can make it better than a combination of CDAF and PDAF - but perhaps it doesn't actually have to scientifically or theoretically be better. If they can get it to be close enough to a hybrid AF system (Canon Dual Pixel and Sony Hybrid AF are the benchmarks as of today) to where it doesn't matter and come up with a system to minimize the pulsing effect then that'll be fine for everything for most people when you overlook the "bragging rights" factors.

    Now what I will say is that the G9/GH5/GH5s updates released in October/November 2018 seem to have solved MOST of the issues that people had but it's still not "perfect." Even still, it's much better compared to where it was.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Probably the most comprehensive “first look” I’ve seen about the cameras on YouTube.

    https://youtu.be/8kSPFjwTi-I
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!
    There's one thing I don't understand: Back in the day, I shot video from a few night drifting events using a GH3 and the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8. Admitedly, the 75mm has extremely fast AF, and there is unusually good contrast at night drifting events but I rarely had problems tracking the cars. Sometimes, I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations with regards to C-AF. I understand that Sony and Fuji are better, and I know that Olympus is better, but with a good lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Panasonic camera for sports if needed. Not the GX8 though. The GH3 was actually better.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    As the grumpy old bastard I am, why the hell do we need an af system that can pick out people and animals?? I have been able to pick out animals for 45 years, I think my first word was cat!

    Whilst I think these 2 cameras are easily the best options now for what I'd want from a 35mm system, i. a good sized, solid, weather sealed camera with an evf that is probably useable, I hate the gfx evf experience, I can't help but feel sad at the fact that photography is moving so far away from being something that requires skill, knowledge and practice and more towards automated nonsense. I saw a video on youtube recently of a "pro" photographer shooting a model with 1 hand in his pocket, his other hand outstretched simply relying on the system to grab eye af, urgh, I'm old.

    Anyway, I don't think there's anything not to like about what has been squeezed in to both the S1 and S1r, if I was in the market I'd definitely go try them out when released, they look great all-round cameras. As I'm not, I think I will go back to looking at a Leica m and a couple of nice lenses, just to enjoy the act of photography and knowing when it's right it was because i got it right, not the camera.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    As the grumpy old bastard I am, why the hell do we need an af system that can pick out people and animals?? I have been able to pick out animals for 45 years, I think my first word was cat!

    Whilst I think these 2 cameras are easily the best options now for what I'd want from a 35mm system, i. a good sized, solid, weather sealed camera with an evf that is probably useable, I hate the gfx evf experience, I can't help but feel sad at the fact that photography is moving so far away from being something that requires skill, knowledge and practice and more towards automated nonsense. I saw a video on youtube recently of a "pro" photographer shooting a model with 1 hand in his pocket, his other hand outstretched simply relying on the system to grab eye af, urgh, I'm old.

    Anyway, I don't think there's anything not to like about what has been squeezed in to both the S1 and S1r, if I was in the market I'd definitely go try them out when released, they look great all-round cameras. As I'm not, I think I will go back to looking at a Leica m and a couple of nice lenses, just to enjoy the act of photography and knowing when it's right it was because i got it right, not the camera.

    Told you I was a grumpy old bastard!

    Mat
    Well I still think good photography requires skill. Progression, be it through automation or whatever will seemingly make life easier, will always be human nature. In the example you just described we can look at it as one handed operation or we can look at it as offloading mechanical functions to a machine so that we as photographers can focus on composition.

    I do agree that better or at least more technologically advanced photography tools have become much more accessible to the masses but I don’t know if that’s a bad thing in general. I guess it’s all in perspective. You seemingly happen to value the idea in that a level of passion should be required to excel, and I don’t totally disagree with you, but if we apply that across the board there would be lots of starving people if grocery stores/markets didn’t exist assuming a person was a terrible hunter/farmer for example. Someone will always invent a way to make life easier for the masses given the ability.

    ...and yes the M provides one of the few limited opportunities for limited automation so you’re not crazy to desire one.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.
    Even if it's possible, you will not get the best photos this way. Stills and movies are two different ways of telling a story. The best frame to tell the story with one image will often not be part of the video.

    And I agree with Mat. Unfortunately, that is not only about photography. Everything is getting computerised and everything will look the same.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2lGkEU4Xs

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There's one thing I don't understand: Back in the day, I shot video from a few night drifting events using a GH3 and the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8. Admitedly, the 75mm has extremely fast AF, and there is unusually good contrast at night drifting events but I rarely had problems tracking the cars. Sometimes, I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations with regards to C-AF. I understand that Sony and Fuji are better, and I know that Olympus is better, but with a good lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Panasonic camera for sports if needed. Not the GX8 though. The GH3 was actually better.
    I don’t know that people have unrealistic expectation of AF tracking... even many Panasonic Ambassadors have publicly commented on some of the shortcomings of video AF (but in a political way). I do believe that people get caught up in wanting the camera they own to check the most boxes but as they say (and by they I mean me) - don’t let the idea of perfection get in the way of tangible greatness.

    By all accounts the last firmware update for the latest G/GH Cameras fixed many of the glaring shortcomings but it is still not better than the best systems yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.
    Panasonic cameras actually already do this in 4K/6K photo mode. They operate as 30fps and 60fps on these cameras.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Well I still think good photography requires skill. Progression, be it through automation or whatever will seemingly make life easier, will always be human nature. In the example you just described we can look at it as one handed operation or we can look at it as offloading mechanical functions to a machine so that we as photographers can focus on composition.

    I do agree that better or at least more technologically advanced photography tools have become much more accessible to the masses but I don’t know if that’s a bad thing in general. I guess it’s all in perspective. You seemingly happen to value the idea in that a level of passion should be required to excel, and I don’t totally disagree with you, but if we apply that across the board there would be lots of starving people if grocery stores/markets didn’t exist assuming a person was a terrible hunter/farmer for example. Someone will always invent a way to make life easier for the masses given the ability.

    ...and yes the M provides one of the few limited opportunities for limited automation so you’re not crazy to desire one.
    You are correct, it is about perspective, I'm not saying that with a camera that does everything you don't need skill, I'm saying you need less skills. You still have to get up and go out, the camera doesn't quite do that yet, find something you like and turn the camera on of course.

    I read so much about this brand or that brand, af isn't fast enough, it picks the wrong eye, won't follow this or that, at some point, I feel we have to take responsibility for our part of the process. It is entirely possible to focus wherever you want, it takes practice, with experience you can predict where someone or something will be, not always but often enough. When the camera does all that for you I feel it devalues the effort needed to be good at what you enjoy or do for a living. Just my view.

    When I'm not shooting commercially, I don't even care so much about the image to be honest, it's being out, putting in the effort, getting it right based on the decisions I make. Of course there will always be those who want it easier, I'm not suggesting we go backwards, I'm just reserving my right to think it's all a bit rubbish. My GFX is an amazing work tool, I have made lots of money with it, but it leaves me wanting more. An evf is necessary part of owning the camera but I know what it takes to expose an image, the things others find great about it are lost on me, learn about exposure and feel better about the effort when you get it right. Again, my grumpy view.

    As for a level of passion required to excel, that's not what I believe at all, I have passion for many things I will never excel at, excelling is not the goal for me, it's the doing. An odd analogy with the starving people and the lack of skills, it used to be that the best hunters and farmers survived to develop the human race, there are people starving and dying outside my door right now, it could reasonably be said it's not because they can't hunt or farm, it's because they are ravaged by war, greed and technologically advanced bombs have wiped their houses off the face of the earth. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    You are correct, it is about perspective, I'm not saying that with a camera that does everything you don't need skill, I'm saying you need less skills. You still have to get up and go out, the camera doesn't quite do that yet, find something you like and turn the camera on of course.

    I read so much about this brand or that brand, af isn't fast enough, it picks the wrong eye, won't follow this or that, at some point, I feel we have to take responsibility for our part of the process. It is entirely possible to focus wherever you want, it takes practice, with experience you can predict where someone or something will be, not always but often enough. When the camera does all that for you I feel it devalues the effort needed to be good at what you enjoy or do for a living. Just my view.

    When I'm not shooting commercially, I don't even care so much about the image to be honest, it's being out, putting in the effort, getting it right based on the decisions I make. Of course there will always be those who want it easier, I'm not suggesting we go backwards, I'm just reserving my right to think it's all a bit rubbish. My GFX is an amazing work tool, I have made lots of money with it, but it leaves me wanting more. An evf is necessary part of owning the camera but I know what it takes to expose an image, the things others find great about it are lost on me, learn about exposure and feel better about the effort when you get it right. Again, my grumpy view.

    As for a level of passion required to excel, that's not what I believe at all, I have passion for many things I will never excel at, excelling is not the goal for me, it's the doing. An odd analogy with the starving people and the lack of skills, it used to be that the best hunters and farmers survived to develop the human race, there are people starving and dying outside my door right now, it could reasonably be said it's not because they can't hunt or farm, it's because they are ravaged by war, greed and technologically advanced bombs have wiped their houses off the face of the earth. I don't know, I'm not an expert.

    Mat
    Fair enough and I don’t completely disagree with you in regards to photography being more accessible. The fact of the matter is that it is.

    Regarding starvation - yes my analogy was completely simplistic and through a “first world” viewpoint... but it was just an analogy. It’s unfortunate that anyone has to starve with human advancements, wealth, and resources but that’s probably another unfortunate non-photographic discussion to begin with.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Regarding the CDAF based autofocus of these cameras, here’s a good comparison with the Z6.

    https://youtu.be/8bX9kFaJhjA

    There are a few things of note for me:

    A) The Panasonic generally isn’t as good at tracking in comparison (no real surprise there) but when it does lock on then it’s accurate.

    B) Panasonic (and hybrid system) lens design in general is seemingly an overlooked element. The Panasonic focus transitions are clearly much smoother and “more cinematic” (in that they look more like a manual focus pull specifically they are less abrupt/jerky when compared to the Nikon). Perhaps Nikon designed their lenses with stepping motors instead of linear ones and this provides that instant focus grab effect.

    C) As a photographer/videographer you constantly have to come up with workarounds. It seems stopping the lens down a bit (2 stops) minimizes the negatives of slower AF Tracking which allows the Panasonic to sufficiently “keep up” with the subject due to increased DoF.

    So Jorgen perhaps this is why you didn’t have as hard of a time with AF-C Tracking on your GH3... there is just a lot more in focus and the minimal adjustments needed to shift the plane of focus typically didn’t affect your workflow. As we can see, people get themselves into trouble when they want extremely shallow DoF and autofocus (though in fairness Canon and Sony have little to no issue being able to do this).

    That’s really the main point and it’s up to the user to make the gear work for them... or change to something that can. As we can see, the LUMIX S works in either setting but maybe the end user is better off with keeping the aperture to f/2 or narrower in video when the camera is unmanned.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    The Panasonic focus transitions are clearly much smoother and “more cinematic” (in that they look more like a manual focus pull specifically they are less abrupt/jerky when compared to the Nikon).
    There's a huge difference between AF for stills and AF for video. It looks like Panasonic optimized more for video, and Nikon for stills. That makes sense, Panasonic makes high-end video and cine cameras. Nikon, of course, is known for stills.

    It would be more interesting to compare Panasonic's video AF with Canon's (which is by far the best in the business).

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    There's a huge difference between AF for stills and AF for video. It looks like Panasonic optimized more for video, and Nikon for stills. That makes sense, Panasonic makes high-end video and cine cameras. Nikon, of course, is known for stills.

    It would be more interesting to compare Panasonic's video AF with Canon's (which is by far the best in the business).
    Well there are comparisons to the Nikon and Canon EOS R, Fuji XT3, and Sony A7 already on the net.

    The point wasn’t to “bash Nikon” but to point out an area not as heavily discussed in video performance where the Panasonic may shine for some shooters. There are videos showing the AF stills performance (with preproduction units) of the S1/R... in short it performs better in stills than video. This was never a concern though because the G9 performs well in stills in most cases. It’s mainly continuous tracking (primarily video) that’s of concern for most.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Another good write up on the LUMIX S.

    https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRO...A.HTM#hands-on
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Another good write up on the LUMIX S.

    https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRO...A.HTM#hands-on
    That's the kind of review that makes me want to buy the camera, not least the comment about the 50mm. Most photographers would probably do fine with the 3 lenses that were launched with the camera and nothing more. Me? I would need a longer lens too, but that's what m4/3 is for isn't it?

    I also liked the positive comments about video from the S1R. That means that for "normal" video needs, the S1R is good enough and the camera to buy for stills photographers who do a little video on the side.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    That's the kind of review that makes me want to buy the camera, not least the comment about the 50mm. Most photographers would probably do fine with the 3 lenses that were launched with the camera and nothing more. Me? I would need a longer lens too, but that's what m4/3 is for isn't it?

    I also liked the positive comments about video from the S1R. That means that for "normal" video needs, the S1R is good enough and the camera to buy for stills photographers who do a little video on the side.
    Yeah but if we are being honest most video in most hybrid cameras the last 3-5 years are good enough for normal usage. I think some people want/expect pro cinema camera and pro video performance at hobbyist prices.

    Truth be told they’d probably be better off with a dedicated video camera than trying to make a compromises solution work where a dedicated tool reduces the number of compromises.

    I agree that that I could probably do most things with the launch lenses and probably wouldn’t need anything else besides maybe a dedicated fast portrait lens.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post

    C) As a photographer/videographer you constantly have to come up with workarounds. It seems stopping the lens down a bit (2 stops) minimizes the negatives of slower AF Tracking which allows the Panasonic to sufficiently “keep up” with the subject due to increased DoF.
    Funny that you mention this. When I shot motorsports with a first generation Nikkor 300mm f/4 AF, I always stopped down to f/8 or f/11 if I had vehicles coming straight towards me. It became so much of a reflex that I didn't even look at the aperture number, just spun the wheel the approximate distance to give me enough DOF to compensate for the slow AF

    That's called RI (real intelligence). No need for AI

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post

    I agree that that I could probably do most things with the launch lenses and probably wouldn’t need anything else besides maybe a dedicated fast portrait lens.
    Luckily, someone already thought about that

    http://uk.leica-camera.com/Photograp...ummicron-SL-90

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Yeah I would prefer something in the 100-110 range personally but we will see what Panasonic announces. I fear it’ll be an 85/1.4. While I don’t mind them, I find that 100mm seems to be the sweet spot for headshots for me.

    I also don’t want to pay Leica prices for their lenses...law of diminishing returns and all. Great lenses... just am not trying to pay $4K+ for them when there are great options for much less.

    On a side note though... a fast FF version of their 20/1.7 lense so let’s say a 40/1.4 (or 45mm) or 40/1.8 (or 45mm here too) would’ve been a great option.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    How many lenses do people on here think are required to cover 80% of use - and how many for the next 20%?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    How many lenses do people on here think are required to cover 80% of use - and how many for the next 20%?
    For me, 3-4. With the new Panasonic cameras, the 24-105 mm being close focusing (30 cm), mostly eliminating the need for a macro lens, I could do more than 80% with the 3 existing lenses. For portraits, I would use a mix of the 50 mm and the 70-200 mm. A fourth lens, a long tele, could be on a m4/3 or APS-C body, like the 100-300 mm that I use with Panasonic's GX8 now.

    Please don't ask how many lenses I currently own and how many I want to buy

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For me, 3-4. With the new Panasonic cameras, the 24-105 mm being close focusing (30 cm), mostly eliminating the need for a macro lens, I could do more than 80% with the 3 existing lenses. For portraits, I would use a mix of the 50 mm and the 70-200 mm. A fourth lens, a long tele, could be on a m4/3 or APS-C body, like the 100-300 mm that I use with Panasonic's GX8 now.

    Please don't ask how many lenses I currently own and how many I want to buy
    Dont worry - I know exactly wht you are saying.

    The GFX50S I have 23 + 32-63 + 110/2 - I would like to have a 45/2.8 but I dont 'need it' as the zoom covers that range and does it very well...tbh even the 23 which is a fantastic lens isn't used as much as I woudl like - because it really is a special purpose lens at 18mm (effective in 35mm terms).

    Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.

    i thin 50MP is a game changer for me anyway - because the FujiGFX handles like an SLR - the GF100 coming out will even have IBIS...

    I think the crop capability means fewer lenses need to be bought - same as in Panasonic 47MP camera.

    I'm looking at a redundant Leica M system now - which means I have already paid for the GFX100 and SL2 +
    \For the first time in 20years I think I can safely exit the Leica M system - which is quite a substantial investment in lenses.

    Less is more might actually become a reality.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.
    With the high pixel count in current digital cameras, and I'm of the opinion that 24 MP is already a high count, 50 mm lenses are really under-valued as portrait lenses. A 50 mm has the great advantage of being a good lens for most kinds of portraits, including environmental ones, while with 85 mm and longer, one tends to "hit the wall" quite literally if more than the subject's face is needed in the picture.

    So from my point of view, both Leica and Panasonic did the right thing by starting off with large aperture 50 mm lenses. I wouldn't mind having the S1R with that lens only for starters.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

    So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

    And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

    In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

    So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

    And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

    In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!
    Should I buy any of these cameras, I will keep my m4/3 gear, and carry a GX8 for telephoto and other specialised photography. Back when I bought the D810, I did the mistake of selling most of my m4/3 equipment, and that was not smart. Sometimes, small is better.

    However, this would mean not investing in any of the expensive lenses for m4/3.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    With the high pixel count in current digital cameras, and I'm of the opinion that 24 MP is already a high count, 50 mm lenses are really under-valued as portrait lenses. A 50 mm has the great advantage of being a good lens for most kinds of portraits, including environmental ones, while with 85 mm and longer, one tends to "hit the wall" quite literally if more than the subject's face is needed in the picture.

    So from my point of view, both Leica and Panasonic did the right thing by starting off with large aperture 50 mm lenses. I wouldn't mind having the S1R with that lens only for starters.
    50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

    I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

    I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

    I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

    Just a thought.

    I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

    FWIW - that where I'm heading.
    Pete

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    After these reviews the S1/S1R get more and more intense resting for me, I must say I tend to prefer the S1R as I want a FF high res alternative to my m43 gear.

    So the S1R with the kit zoom and the 1.4/50 either Panasonic or Leica, and the Leics 2/75 0r 2/90 as portrait lenses would solve a lot of problems. For this I might also let go lot of my M-glass to support financing this.

    And then add a long tele zoom - I guess Sigma will bring what I want/need there.

    In the end it again looks like I will stop investing in m43 gear, as I have there all I already want!
    Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    50mm is my favourite cornerstone go to focal length which is why i have so many of them LOL...

    I'll rock your boat and say to you to keep your 4/3rds system/ ignore the Panasonic and go straight to 50MP with Fuji - the financial outlay for a used Fuji isnt much more than a Panasonic and a couple of lenses ( and they are starting to emerge as some people switched to the R and will be even more around in a few months when the 100MP comes out )

    I would seriously consider Fuji aps and Fuji > 35mm ( lets call it that or 'super full frame' and let the dinasaur back manufacturers call their cameras 'MF') as a magic combination.

    I dont like advising people really because everyone is different - but judging by the files I see in 4/3rds and the quality of lenses especially tele - whats the point fo 35mm really? IF you want subject separation for portraits etc - Fuji's larger chip mated to the 100/2 or even adapted glass will match or beat anything by anyone in 35mm land - have a look at Barts Sigma 135 art shots- that would be a great portrait lens for not much outlay - and if you like wide - good luck trying to beat the FujiGFX 23mm - it is an absolutely outstanding lens or teh zoom again outstanding.

    Just a thought.

    I see people going for a combination of small lightweight fast and relatively inexpensive with something like Olympus/Fuji/Sony 4/3 or aps and GFX/XID for lightweight but high quality 50MP for landscape/portrait/product when you need the best file and aren't fussed about frame rates really silly high iso etc etc etc...

    FWIW - that where I'm heading.
    Pete
    Don't think I haven't considered it. There are used Fuji MF bodies for sale at my local shop all the time, right now an R for a reasonable price. We'll see. Nothing will happen in my case this side of summer (That's winter for you).

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Pete I've seen spome of yoru shots with 4/3rds - you are missing NOTHING in 35mm land. See my post above - if you want som enew bling - go 50 or 100MP in bigger than 35Mm chip and use the camera for that kind of work - 35mm is dead to me.
    You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    You do bring up an interesting point in that the Panasonic is priced in the middle of existing high megapixel 35mm cameras and entry level medium format cameras. I though about that and pricing is the area where I think Panasonic may have made some mistakes for people that mostly do photography. Even still, either would work well though I do prefer 4:3 aspect ratio over 3:2 that MF provides.
    Hi Nelson - nice to see you posting again.

    I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?

    EXCEPT for the 6Mpixel EVF of course THAT has got to be something really interesting to check out.

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I don't see anything in the Panasonic that isn't covered as well by Sony already - do you?
    I don't think Sony has the High Resolution pixel shift mode that the new Panasonic has.
    And Tré (iiiNelson) likes larger bodies than the Sony ones, so that seems to be a big plus for him as well.

    For me I don't see a reason to change system from Sony to the new Panasonic, I actually like the smaller Sony bodies and jumping ship and getting a whole new stable of lenses for me isn't justified (too expensive) just for the better EVF and the pixel shift technology. My photo's won't get any better, since I'm usually the limit, not my camera

    But I can understand that for others it's a very tempting offer.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I am a long-time Panasonic user, sometime Leica user and now Fujifilm MF user, as well.

    I have to applaud Panasonic for going down this route and I think if you are in the market for a FF camera it should be seriously considered. Panasonic menus and ergonomics are the best I have used since I went digital nearly 15 years ago. This should bring some much needed improvement to the ease of use for owners, compared to other systems which in my opinion do not reach the same level.

    My problem with what I have seen so far is (a) size of the bodies, e.g. ginormous and (b) pricing - as high and in some cases higher (e.g. S1R and 50mm lens) than the Nikon Z7, which says a lot.

    The pricing is so high I would not consider moving from my Fujifilm MF system even if I wanted to. The value proposition of the S1R high end camera is just too close to the current pricing of the Fujifilm GFX50R and GFX50S and whether people care to believe it or not you cannot even begin to approach the IQ of a MF sensor with a FF camera.

    I know a lot of people will howl with rage about the last statement but it is fact.

    If you are doing landscape, portrait, commercial, architecture - whatever and are a pro or a serious prosumer then spend the extra and get into the Fuji system, would be my personal opinion and advice, if asked.

    In the Dpreview video with Chris and Jordan, at one point Jordan expresses enthusiasm for the AI in the camera which will recognise wildlife. "All Panasonic needs is a long lens for birders!"

    It is not credible that Panasonic will be able to develop the kind of birding lenses like the Nikkor 200-500, or the Canon 400L fast enough to entice away existing Nikon or Canon users for many years. Maybe even, never.

    Nor do Panasonic have to support that requirement. If they go for the professional wedding, portrait, real estate, family etc market they could have a very good market share at some point in the future. It can still happen that Panasonic will out-Nikon, Nikon and out-Canon, Canon but I think that is at worst an uncertain achievement and at best maybe 5 years or more out, rather like the time frame it has taken Sony to get established as a serious alternative.

    I think Panasonic have also missed a trick. I think they should have leap-frogged FF and gone straight to MF like Fuji. Fuji has a growing customer base as they make MF more and more affordable. That is a market ripe for competition whereas the FF market is likely to shrink over time.

    Anyway those are my opinions: and just opinions. What do I know, eh?

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Dont worry - I know exactly wht you are saying.

    The GFX50S I have 23 + 32-63 + 110/2 - I would like to have a 45/2.8 but I dont 'need it' as the zoom covers that range and does it very well...tbh even the 23 which is a fantastic lens isn't used as much as I woudl like - because it really is a special purpose lens at 18mm (effective in 35mm terms).

    Now I get why Leica started with superb zoom in SL and then brought out the 50 lux as its first prime.

    i thin 50MP is a game changer for me anyway - because the FujiGFX handles like an SLR - the GF100 coming out will even have IBIS...

    I think the crop capability means fewer lenses need to be bought - same as in Panasonic 47MP camera.

    I'm looking at a redundant Leica M system now - which means I have already paid for the GFX100 and SL2 +
    \For the first time in 20years I think I can safely exit the Leica M system - which is quite a substantial investment in lenses.

    Less is more might actually become a reality.

    Isn’t it GF32-64? Not to be confused with the GF63. This link
    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4363090
    has interesting tidbits for manual focusing and focus shift.

    I agree the GF45 is another gem worth having in addition to the GF32-64.

    Having the Sony A9 and Fuji 50S I feel no GAS for the L-Mount cameras. Also my Olympus gear is not going anywhere except with me.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Should I buy any of these cameras, I will keep my m4/3 gear, and carry a GX8 for telephoto and other specialised photography. Back when I bought the D810, I did the mistake of selling most of my m4/3 equipment, and that was not smart. Sometimes, small is better.

    However, this would mean not investing in any of the expensive lenses for m4/3.
    Or need to invest in any new and expensive m43 body

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    Re: General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

    I for sure know how MFD performs and will always perform in the years to come. Have spent too many € in that game and while IQ wise there is absolutely NO DEBATE that MFD is and will always be superior, as soon as it comes to speed, AF speed, portability and long lens support MFD definitely looses and will always loos against FF.

    This is why I would never dare to compare whatever FF solution to MF - NEVER! While IQ will always be superior, portability and ease of use etc. will never be - never, whatever Fuji, Hasselblad or P1 are promising!

    Hence a great FF solution will always be preferable for a majority of shooters, who aside from top IQ also want portability, long reach tele lenses and fast AF for whatever reason. In this field the S1R absolutely shines, as does the Z7 and the Sony A7RIII. what an individual prefers depends on guess what - individual preferences. For me personally Panasonic and Nikon are very valid contributors in that area, Sony is not, but that is a different and very personal story and has nothing to do with the capabilities of their FF mirrorless offerings.

    So I would ask to finally stop comparing any MFD solution with any FF solution and move on - these are two totally different systems and philosophies and they should not be intermixed. So this does not contribute to any thoughts about the S1 or S1R and this will not change even if we see or hear another thousand price comparisons - absolute nonsense.

    Sorry for being so direct but in the end all this discussion about FF versus MFD upsets me as there are not many similarities other than maybe price or MP count - but already when it comes to the final look of an image all these comparisons simply fall apart!!
    Last edited by ptomsu; 4th February 2019 at 07:44.

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