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LF (4x5) Newbie Questions

Jeremy

New member
I just added more info to the post you just quoted... the 3.33x5 trick was just to get a feel for the equivalence of lenses, not to make final decisions.
My point was that the 3.33x5 trick won't give you a feel for the equivalence (unless you're cropping your images to this orientation) because the extra height in landscape orientation and extra width in portrait makes such a large change in how the space feels.

Honestly, I don't think you can make any meaningful exact mm equivalents between 35mm and LF for those who have not worked in both formats because of this. I usually just talk about it in terms of "normal", "slightly wide", "really wide", etc. for those who are just learning.

I've bought and sold way too much LF gear getting to where I want to be, I was just hoping to steer you away from some theoretical pitfalls I suffered when starting out.

edit to try and make myself more clear: I don't think a photographer coming up to a scene with a 35mm camera and 24mm lens would make the same photograph if he were using a 4x5 and 75mm lens. He would respond differently to the space with a 35/24mm than a 4x5/75mm.
 

carstenw

Active member
Fair enough, and thanks for the help. 75mm does sound a tad wide, so I will stick with the 90mm.

It sounds like along with the 3010 tank, I need a foot-pump to get the lid off, and an adapter if I want to use the CPP-2 motor. Is that what you have?

Stupid question: how do 10 sheets fit into 5 holes?
 

Oren Grad

Active member
The price is pretty impressive if it is just a plastic container for 4x5 film!
It's a quite complex design - double-walled to provide for a temperature-controlling water jacket when it's used with the Jobo processors, and with subtle shaping of the wells in which the film sheets sit, to assure adequate and even flow of the processing solutions.

The Jobo processors are fabulous. Yes, it's more than you'll want to spend as you're just getting started, but keep them in mind for later on. Although the processors are out of production and have been discontinued in the US, I thought I read somewhere recently that the CPA-2 is still available new in Germany.

In the meantime, using a Jobo Expert drum on a manual roller base is a very reasonable starting point.
 

Jeremy

New member
Fair enough, and thanks for the help. 75mm does sound a tad wide, so I will stick with the 90mm.

It sounds like along with the 3010 tank, I need a foot-pump to get the lid off, and an adapter if I want to use the CPP-2 motor. Is that what you have?

Stupid question: how do 10 sheets fit into 5 holes?
You don't need a foot-pump to get the lid off. I have one now because it came with a tank I bought for 8x10, but I didn't use one for ~5 years. You can also get ANY footpump, put a rubber stopper on the end that will seal into the tank, and use that instead of the Jobo one. I just put the tank on the floor (held between my feet) and pried up with my fingertips to take the lid off--or I know one gent who gently raps the edge of the lid on his countertop until he can pry it loose with his fingers (he has arthritis).

2 sheets per hole! They get put in emulsion side facing into the center of the hole and there are little ridges holding the film in place.
 

Oren Grad

Active member
It sounds like along with the 3010 tank, I need a foot-pump to get the lid off, and an adapter if I want to use the CPP-2 motor.
Yes, the foot pump is a big help in popping the lid after processing. The Expert drums already have built in to the lid the cog that's needed to connect with the Jobo Lift. You need to have the Lift installed to use the Expert drums at all, but most CPA-2 and CPP-2 that you'll find on the used market come with the Lift - it never made much sense to buy without.

Stupid question: how do 10 sheets fit into 5 holes?
Each well has ridges in the wall to enable it to safely hold two sheets without the sheets ending up on top of each other. In loading, you wedge each sheet against the wall of the well, between the ridges.

It's the only Expert drum that's made that way - the 3004, 3005 and 3006 all take only one sheet per well.
 

Jeremy

New member
It's a quite complex design - double-walled to provide for a temperature-controlling water jacket when it's used with the Jobo processors, and with subtle shaping of the wells in which the film sheets sit, to assure adequate and even flow of the processing solutions.

The Jobo processors are fabulous. Yes, it's more than you'll want to spend as you're just getting started, but keep them in mind for later on. Although the processors are out of production and have been discontinued in the US, I thought I read somewhere recently that the CPA-2 is still available new in Germany.

In the meantime, using a Jobo Expert drum on a manual roller base is a very reasonable starting point.
Shoot, I HAVE a Jobo processor and I still use a Beseler rotating base!
 

Jeremy

New member
Whatever works best for you is the right way to go. :)
Nicely put.

More people need to reach this conclusion--photography is an art, after all.

edit: carsten, this of course has nothing to do with you or your questions (which are very good, even the one you said was stupid!) :) Just wanted to add that as this cropped up in your thread.
 
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carstenw

Active member
No worries, I enjoy the banter, so please do go on :)

I am trying to learn as much as I can in advance, and if possible, to have sufficient knowledge of everything I need to know and buy before I buy even the first component, so that I may make decisions which make sense in the context of the whole (even if I don't expect to make perfect decisions).

I find LF to be much more componentised than other formats. I mean, in what other formats do you need to talk about lens board manufacturers, film holder manufacturers, shutter manufacturers (!), and on and on for decisions which is almost every smaller system are a given (closed systems).

I have a vague feeling that I am getting it so far, but I still don't feel nearly ready to buy anything yet. First I want to have a a beginning-to-end workflow in my head, at least loosely.

Funnily enough, I had already decided that 5 double-sided film holders was probably a good compromise between weight and travel, for local work, and then the 3010 has space for 10 sheets! Serendipity.

Oh, for the Schneider lenses in Compur shutters, what cable release fitting do I need?

Do I need grad filters? The shutter speed range seems kinda limited.
 

Jeremy

New member
I find LF to be much more componentised than other formats. I mean, in what other formats do you need to talk about lens board manufacturers, film holder manufacturers, shutter manufacturers (!), and on and on for decisions which is almost every smaller system are a given (closed systems).
Think about it from the other way, though--anything that fits you can use regardless of brand. For example, I am shooting the same 250mm Fuji lens on a 4x5 Chamonix camera and 8x10 Kodak camera without the need for any adapters!

A lot of the things you're mulling over are, for many LF photographers, moot.

Couple of examples:

I probably have lensboards from 4 different manufacturers, but it doesn't make any difference (other than cosmetics as there are color differences) which I use as long as it fits my camera.

It doesn't matter what film holders you use as long as they're light tight and working.

The hard part with large format starting out is because you have so many options it's hard to know which to pick, but you'll soon learn that for *most* LF things it really doesn't matter which one you pick, just that you pick something.
 
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Jeremy

New member
I have a vague feeling that I am getting it so far, but I still don't feel nearly ready to buy anything yet. First I want to have a a beginning-to-end workflow in my head, at least loosely.
Getting one of the intro to large format books will help with this as every one I have seen gives a good list of what you actually need to buy to get started and lays out a simple workflow.
 

Jeremy

New member
Oh, for the Schneider lenses in Compur shutters, what cable release fitting do I need?

Do I need grad filters? The shutter speed range seems kinda limited.
A cable release fitting like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/561812-REG/Bower_SR714_6_Cloth_Cable_Release.html

If you have any old cable releases for manual 35mm cameras those would work.

That is standardized across all LF lenses--except where it's not. Occasionally a lens in a large, older shutter (like an Ilex #5) may require a longer plunger throw to set off the shutter and there are some funky electric shutters, but those are exceptions.

Grad or ND? I don't use grad filters for my work in any format, but have been using ND filters so I can shoot wide open during the day. For example, my 12" f/4.5 velostigmat is in a studio shutter which is basically "Bulb" only so I need to get my shutter speed down to around 1/2" second for me to be consistent with the exposures.
 

Lars

Active member
cable releases are standard.

75 is indeed wide. I use a 150 on 8x10 and it's most often almost too wide even for very wide scenes.

Grads - Lee system is popular. Avoid glass grads - they are expensive and will break. Resin filters are optically equal but scratch easier.

Shutter speeds - unless you shoot wide open, you'll find yourself in the 1/60 - 1 sec in daylight. Shutter speeds are fixed in steps, you do the fine adjustment in aperture.
 

Oren Grad

Active member
I find LF to be much more componentised than other formats.
That's a feature, not a bug. :)

I mean, in what other formats do you need to talk about lens board manufacturers
Most modern cameras adhere to one of a small number of lensboard standards. The most popular ones are Technika, Toyo field and Sinar, with smaller cameras overwhelmingly going with the Technika standard and larger ones with Sinar. Although it was Linhof that established the Technika standard, many other manufacturers make compatible boards at much lower prices. And there are grillions of used ones floating around. Adapter boards for fitting smaller lensboard types to larger ones are readily available too. It's just not a big deal.

film holder manufacturers
There are only two modern manufacturers of 4x5 holders - Fidelity/Lisco and Toyo. Actually, Fidelity/Lisco has already shut down, though there are still plenty of new holders in the pipeline, and lots of used ones available.

shutter manufacturers (!)
Copal's the only one still selling new, and is by far the most common on modern lenses. Compur (less common) and Prontor (much less common) also turn up, but for most users there's no reason to go out of their way looking for one. OTOH, if a lens in, say, Compur, comes along at a decent price, there's equally no reason to avoid it. They all mount in the same standard sized lensboard holes.

Oh, for the Schneider lenses in Compur shutters, what cable release fitting do I need?
Late model shutters almost all accept the same inexpensive generic cable releases.

Do I need grad filters? The shutter speed range seems kinda limited.
Do you mean ND filters? Anyway, I can't recall ever using a shutter speed faster than 1/30 on a LF camera, even in the smaller formats like 4x5. The top speeds on the Copal shutters are way more than fast enough for all but highly specialized uses.

BTW, lensboard and shutter standards do get more complicated as you move into classic/antique cameras and lenses. There are still straightforward solutions for most problems, and in any case that's not what you've been looking at for now.
 

carstenw

Active member
Is the Schneider-Kreuznach 210mm f/5,6 APO-Symmar a good lens for 4x5 (enough coverage, etc)? What is a fair price for one?
 

Oren Grad

Active member
Is the Schneider-Kreuznach 210mm f/5,6 APO-Symmar a good lens for 4x5 (enough coverage, etc)? What is a fair price for one?
It's an excellent lens indeed, and well suited to 4x5 in every way. Price is a bit hard to judge - as I recall I paid something like $400 for mine, used in very clean condition, but you should check KEH and completed sales on eBay for a current sense.

If budget is an issue, at least in the US you can generally find a clean 210 Symmar-S MC, Sironar-N MC, or Caltar II-N MC for $100 to $150 less than that. Those are great bargains.
 

carstenw

Active member
Crikey that's cheap! I am used to APO lenses for my Leica Ms, and you could get a handful of Schneiders for a single Leica! I thought I would be robbed for a lens like that. I see one on eBay for $445 which judging by recent auctions is a bit too much, so I will watch for a while.

Actually, that leads to another question: would I even see the difference on 4x5 between the APO and non-APO Symmar?
 
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Oren Grad

Active member
Don't be impressed by the term "apo" on large format lenses. With respect to the main line plasmat lenses, in practical terms all it means is that the lens is of recent vintage. It's a marketing thing, not a major technology or quality distinction. All recent Schneider and Rodenstock plasmats are called "apo".

In the 1980s, Rodenstock's plasmat line was called Sironar-N. Later, when they introduced the Apo-Sironar-S line with greater coverage, they kept the Sironar-N, but just renamed it Apo-Sironar-N without making any substantive change in the optical design.

And it doesn't matter. These late-model lenses are all of very high optical quality for their respective intended formats.
 

Oren Grad

Active member
Actually, that leads to another question: would I even see the difference on 4x5 between the APO and non-APO Symmar?
From first-hand experience I know the Rodenstock lenses better than the Schneider. FWIW, the Symmar-S series is specified as covering 70 degrees, while the Apo-Symmar covers 72. But in either case, the 210 has more than ample coverage for 4x5. I don't have MTF curves for the Symmar-S series, but no doubt performance was refined slightly between the two generations. Most users in most circumstances will probably be hard-pressed to tell the difference.
 
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