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Thread: 10x4

  1. #1
    nei1
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    10x4

    These are the same 35mm image one cropped to 10x4 format ,more or less.I have always liked the 2x1 shape of the 6x12 cameras and this 4x10 seems to be the closest to that.Is it easy and reliable to cut 10x8 film without fracturing the emulsion layer?Probably a frivolous post but you never know.Particularly like the wooden canham camera, ............Neil.
    http://www.canhamcameras.com/4x10.htm
    Last edited by nei1; 24th October 2009 at 03:01.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    I LOVE the idea of 4x10. Cutting film shouldn't be a problem, just use a good rotary cutter with a preset. 2.5:1 has that cine feel to it, and in a pinch the neg is large enough to crop to a 4x5 if the scene so requires.

    On the low end there's Shen-Hao. Badger lists it for $1595.
    http://www.shen-hao.com/410.html
    What's really interesting with the Shen-Hao offering is that there seems to be backs available for 5x7 as well as 6x17 rollfilm. So the rear standard is slightly oversized.

    Of course, if you really want to splash out there's always Ebony SW410 -lists for $6095 at Badger.
    If you have a sensitive wallet or compulsive buyer disorder, close your eyes now.

    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: 10x4

    That Ebony camera is a beauty! It might seem expensive, but I am sure it will last a life time and keep its value. It is a bargain when compared to digital backs, which cost 3 times as much and loose 50% of their value within a year or two!

    Chamonix also makes a 4x10 for $2450. (http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/410.html).
    They also have a 5x8, if you prefer to slice your 8x10 film the other way!

    Incidentally, 5x8 is very close to the golden ratio (1.6180339887...), and 5 and 8 are consecutive numbers in the Fibonacci sequence

  4. #4
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    I actually think the idea of 5x8 is even more appealing as you would sort of a two-fer...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: 10x4

    That Ebony panorama body is...beautiful

  6. #6
    nei1
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    Re: 10x4

    Lars that is one beautiful camera ,way out of my price range unfortunately.Its a heavy camera as well,the ebony version is a kilo heavier than the mahogany,and is nearly 5 kilos in weight.That plus the weight of a decent standard lens must mean a kit weight of 10 to 15 kilos.But I guess that apart from the camera the rest of the kit has the same weight as any other camera,meaning the tripod darkslides etc.The canham camera is nearly 3 kilos and the chamonix half a kilo lighter.
    Those golden numbers are interesting,the 11x14 has a ratio of 1.2727272727r which has its charm too,................Neil
    This is 8x5,nice but the 10x4 is magical.I find that with the 10x4 Im walking into the image more and having a look around.
    Last edited by nei1; 24th October 2009 at 03:01.

  7. #7
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    This is 8x5,nice but the 10x4 is magical.I find that with the 10x4 Im walking into the image more and having a look around.
    Interesting... I find the columns appear "chopped off" in your 4x10, but look perfect in the 5x8...

    Oh, and Chamonix makes 2 ~ 2-1/2 Kilo 5x8 AND 4x10 cameras -- either size is $2450 US : http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/58.html
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  8. #8
    nei1
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    Re: 10x4

    There"s me thinking youd be pleased that Ive started cropping things Jack

  9. #9
    nei1
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    Re: 10x4

    To be honest if someone was to make a 5x2 Id be quite happy and I could put some money towards an imacon,but now Im back to 6x12,

    Jack whats a "you would sort of a two-fer... "
    Last edited by nei1; 2nd June 2009 at 03:37.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    5x2..There's always 6x17 cm... Shen-Hao seems to be the value leader at about $1500, whereas Ebony's offering sits around $7K.

    Now wouldn't it be nice with 4" rollfilm?
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  11. #11
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    There"s me thinking youd be pleased that Ive started cropping things Jack


    Good one!

    Re 6x12. The good thing -- really good thing -- about that IMO is that you have 4x5 if you want it; 4x5 ready-load single sheets in a variety of emulsions if you don't feel like exposing an entire roll of 120 or 220. Bigger plus is you can use a Betterlight or powerPhase scanning back with either one of those for incredible detail, and the scanning backs have come way down in price . 3x4 capture area, but you can easily crop that down to 2x4 and still have maybe 40MP of image data

    For 4x5, I love the Chamonix, but also LOVE the non-folding Ebony 45 SU. Both are quite light and compact, Cham is a relative bargain, but not so much the Ebony...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Bigger plus is you can use a Betterlight or powerPhase scanning back with either one of those for incredible detail, and the scanning backs have come way down in price .
    Regarding price, that is certainly true for the PowerPhase, but the Betterlight are still quite expensive. Jack, do you still own one?

    I love my Chamonix too; I ordered mine after having read your nice review. I have the one with maple wood.

  13. #13
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois_A View Post
    Regarding price, that is certainly true for the PowerPhase, but the Betterlight are still quite expensive. Jack, do you still own one?

    I love my Chamonix too; I ordered mine after having read your nice review. I have the one with maple wood.
    1) Nope, I no longer own a Betterlight, but would like to again some day.

    2) I did not know you already owned the Cham -- good on you! IMO you already have the "ideal" 6x12 camera, and a very lightweight one to boot, just buy a back -- I like the Claumet or Sinar insert style -- mark the GG and you are already set!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  14. #14
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    I think it was Mike Collette who mentioned when I spoke to him a few years ago that Betterlight was working on a 4x10" prototype scanning back. Not sure if that project ever went anywhere.

    Re 6x12 -- not enough square centimeters. Even scanned by a toplevel scanner, images just don't have the same oomph of larger formats.
    Last edited by Lars; 2nd June 2009 at 12:12.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  15. #15
    jeffrisk
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    Re: 10x4

    Good to see this work

  16. #16
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    I think it was Mike Collette who mentioned when I spoke to him a few years ago that Betterlight was working on a 4x10" prototype scanning back. Not sure if that project ever went anywhere.
    I think because of his pano head which basically gives you a 4 x whatever-you-want-size image at the same capture speeds, he shelved it. FWIW I owned the pano head for my Betterlight and it was incredible.

    Re 6x12 -- not enough square centimeters. Even scanned by a toplevel scanner, images just don't have the same oomph of larger formats.
    I hear you, but if you use good emulsions, like Ektar, Pro160, Astia, etc, and then scan on the best scanners, the results are very, very good. So good in fact noted LF photographer Edward Burtynsky abandoned his traditional 8x10 in favor of a lighter weight 4x5 system for his China project. If you've seen prints from that next to some of his earlier 8x10 work, they give up nothing in the way of detail...

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I think because of his pano head which basically gives you a 4 x whatever-you-want-size image at the same capture speeds, he shelved it. FWIW I owned the pano head for my Betterlight and it was incredible.
    Yep, the Betterlight pano head is a blast to play with and the reason Mike decided against a pano aspect betterlight. This upcoming year I want to spend some more time out in the field doing panos.

  18. #18
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Actually, I should have clarified, it is 3 x whatever, or more accurately I think 6000 to 12,000 pixels tall, depending on the back.
    Jack
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    Senior Member JimCollum's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    you can go to http://www.betterlight.com/mcphoto.html and see some full res pano's from Mike's portfolio (via Zoomify) to see the kind of quality

  20. #20
    sara_criss
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    Re: 10x4

    great work, thanks for the share

  21. #21
    Member JSK Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    I LOVE the idea of 4x10. Cutting film shouldn't be a problem, just use a good rotary cutter with a preset. 2.5:1 has that cine feel to it, and in a pinch the neg is large enough to crop to a 4x5 if the scene so requires.

    On the low end there's Shen-Hao. Badger lists it for $1595.
    http://www.shen-hao.com/410.html
    What's really interesting with the Shen-Hao offering is that there seems to be backs available for 5x7 as well as 6x17 rollfilm. So the rear standard is slightly oversized.

    Of course, if you really want to splash out there's always Ebony SW410 -lists for $6095 at Badger.
    If you have a sensitive wallet or compulsive buyer disorder, close your eyes now.



    Is it possible to make some sort of digital back adapter so one can achieve by moving/shifting DB to cover 4x10 something like an Alpa XY and such?

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    Re: 10x4

    "Is it possible to make some sort of digital back adapter so one can achieve by moving/shifting DB to cover 4x10 something like an Alpa XY and such?"

    Yes: http://www.kapturegroup.com/solution...stitching_link

    I don't know if anyone here has information on these things, but their One-Shot cable works great.

  23. #23
    Member JSK Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Is it possible to make some sort of digital back adapter so one can achieve by moving/shifting DB to cover 4x10 something like an Alpa XY and such?"

    Yes: http://www.kapturegroup.com/solution...stitching_link

    I don't know if anyone here has information on these things, but their One-Shot cable works great.
    Thank you Stephen

  24. #24
    Member JSK Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    I am thinking Kapture Group adapter looks rather heavy and my question would be if you have 4x10 Ebony with Kapture Group adapter attached to it lets say in desired tilt/shift position could sliding your DB and GG be prone to effecting the camera position previously set so that you end up having a slightly different crop from when you made your composition?

    I know Ebony cameras are solid and top of the line LF cameras. I've never
    used one of these adapters and it worries me a little..

  25. #25
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: 10x4

    A key guiding rule when stitching is do not crop tight. You'll have plenty of pixels to work with anyway, so make sure you have a healthy margin maybe 5-10% of image width/height.

    Camera stability is not an issue - it all comes down to tripod leg torsional rigidity.

    I think if shifting a DB around over such a large area you'd get into some serious trouble WRT angles, as most sensors are not indifferent to angle of incoming light. 4x5 is one thing, but 4x10 is many times wider than the sensor.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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