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Thread: The X1 Chat Box

  1. #51
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I have to admit my initial negative impression is wearing and I'm warming considerably to the thought after seeing the photos of the size. *If* the iq is good (especially hi iso/available light) I might pony up $2K for it and just go with DLux4/X1/5Dmk2 as my three "systems".

  2. #52
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    One camera, one lens...sounds like X1 to me.

    http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...eica-year.html

  3. #53
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    One camera, one lens...sounds like X1 to me.

    http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...eica-year.html
    that thought has already occurred to me.

    So when are these going to be available?

  4. #54
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Supposedly early December...

  5. #55
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    I am slightly surprised by the negative reactions to the X1; resisitance to its price and to its fixed lens, mostly.

    Leicas are generally expensive: it seems to me to be a digital CM, and that class of film cameras - compact, high quality, fixed lens cameras like the CM, Contax T's, etc., were expensive in their day. A 24mm Elmarit M lens by itself costs more than US$2000. The lens on the X1 may not have the same optical and mechanical quality as an M lens, but I would guess that it would be designed to match the sensor, so that there should be little or no issues with micro-lenses, IR filters, vignetting, etc.. Although the m4/3 cameras are, in some senses, revolutionary, and produce very good image quality, I think that they are still a step below an M8 in terms of image quality, and I would like to think that three or four years after the M8, the image quality of the X1 would be similar or better - the performance of the X1, unknown at the moment, will determine whether it is worth the price or not, I think. Is its CMOS sensor, of currently unknown provenance, with its currently unknown AA/IR filtration, a match for the Kodak CCD with no AA filter in the M8?

    As to the fixed lens issue, there was some market in the past for the CM type cameras, and for the Sigma DP1/2 cameras now, although it may be small. Some of us are lazy about changing lenses, and tend to use just one for the vast majority of our shots. If you are interested in a fairly compact camera, then carrying extra lenses, and paying for Leica-quality extra lenses, may not be all that interesting. Interchangeable lenses would also bring up viewfinder issues, and the big question, which mount? If M-mount, then it becomes a kind of M8.3 lite, or digital CL, and would probably cannibalize M9 sales. For m4/3 mount, it would seem that rebadging a Panasonic body would be the usual response. If Leica were to build their own m4/3 body, then they would have to compete against the manufacturing capabilities of Panasonic and Olympus. m4/3 cameras can already use M lenses, although the crop factor is a bit of a problem, and I understand that there are some issues with wide angle lenses and the lack of micro-lenses on the m4/3 sensors. If Leica were to build their own m4/3 camera, they would probably also want to design and build a set of m4/3-specific lenses, making it a bigger project, and requiring Leica to compete in a relatively low-priced market - sounds like a bad idea to me.

    It has a bigger sensor, probably a better lens, and probably better image quality than the Sigma DP and m4/3 competition, albeit with a fixed lens, and it is cheaper and a bit smaller and lighter, than a used M8 with a 28 Elmarith ASPH, which would be the approximate equivalent, although it lack the option of more lenses. It seems like a very interesting camera to me.
    I can agree with this. I do also think the price will move a bit after release, so it could be less than US$2K. I also think a lot of its appeal will depend on IQ. That will be its make or break. If its IQ is stunning, then there will be those that must have it. With a big sensor not too much crowding of photosites it has the potential to be something unique. If it does not cut it, then sure the GF1 may pip it.
    Last edited by Tim; 9th September 2009 at 17:08.

  6. #56
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I'm personally very interested in the X1. The build quality of an all metal body is a plus for me. That is value that one simply cannot get in other similar cameras. I've been very happy with my G1 that I've had since last November, but it's a consumer cam with plastic build quality. Not that this is bad, but I grew up using well-built cameras made of metal. I am very careful with the G1 as one drop and it could perhaps shatter.

    The other reason I'm intrigued is that it uses my favorite field of view, and it has a decent sized sensor. One of my favorite cameras of all time was the D300 which is also APS-C and my most used lens was a 24/2.8 Nikkor. If the IQ is D300-like, this will be a winner, IMHO. At least from my POV.

  7. #57
    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Well if it's a gussied up point and shoot the price is beyond stupid, but if it matches the M8's IQ and responsiveness (which was a step below the film M's but still light years ahead of any point and shoot) then it's a screaming deal. I've always shot my M's with one lens 90% of the time.

    A smaller body with a really good optical finder and the focus preset -what else do you need in a street shooter? If it's at the level of the prosumer class DSLR's/M8 in that Barnack like package I'd consider it an improvement on the M8 for daytime documentary work.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    The X1 certainly won't replace the GRD III that I have just ordered. But I may add an X1. For me it will be a bit of a wait and see with the IQ on the GF1 and X1

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    The thing is a like it but the IQ needs to match for me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I really don't see a real market for that camera. I mean the idea isn't that bad, but 2000 for it. Fixed lens and so on. I probably would go for a Canon g11 or a small Nikon, Sony or Canon slr.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Interesting reading people's responses. Like Terry mentioned on DPR, If it was m4/3s I might have sprung for it, but not with the fixed lens. I'd really like a compact digital camera with the simple controls of the X1. Hopefully Panasonic and Oly are watching and learning.

    If Oly's 17mm lens was better quality I wonder if the X1's reception might have been a little different.
    Charles - flickr

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I will seriously consider getting an X1 if the price is under $1500 (not likely) and the image quality is up to Leica standards.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I will seriously consider getting an X1 if the price is under $1500 (not likely) and the image quality is up to Leica standards.
    I've had new M8s offered to me at substantial discounts. Maybe not after it was just released but at some point the X1 will be cheaper!

  14. #64
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    This is a camera that a lot of people have been waiting for,me very much included.If youre wish list was for a leica version of the gh1 this is not it,this camera will be like the twilight zone for you.However for those of us that the X1 fits it would be a shame to offer such a camera and then take it away because of its quality.Can I ask again why the M8 sensor isnot being used in this camera?

  15. #65
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    this camera will be like the twilight zone for you.
    hehehe, I think you are right.

    Also I think you have to get this camera in your hand. Someone posted weight specs and the X1 is twice as heavy as its competitors - although it does not really have any direct competitors. I think it will have a substantial build.

  16. #66
    PeterLeyssens
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Hi,

    I have been in the market for a camera like the X1 for some time now. I don't know if it will be the X1, but that camera sure looks interesting. Here are my thoughts about Leica and the role of the X1. Let me start off with saying that I already told my wife about it and announced that I would probably start saving. She thought it was okay. I'm blessed with a lovely and understanding wife. (Possibly, talking about the S2 and the M9 first helped a bit )

    The idea of Oscar Barnack was to make a camera that one could take anywhere and that would always be ready when needed. Quite probably, the X1 has a better form factor for that as a digital camera than the M series itself. I've extensively used an Olympus OM system which is nearly identical in size and after several years, I didn't find it really practical anymore: you need a shoulder sling like Seal was wearing during the presentation and a small bag to carry extra lenses. The Leica M possibly moved a little bit away from the ultra portability of the earlier Leicas, trading that in for a lot of advantages (like the viewfinder). For me, I'd prefer a camera that is more pocketable again, and I know it will mean compromising on other things.

    The X1, as has been noted here before, shows quite a bit of resemblance to the Barnacks. The lens isn't removable, but it does retract to make the camera very pocketable. I use my Barnack (clone) with a collapsible Summitar and the X1 will be smaller, less than half the weight and I won't need to carry a light meter. Even better, it has exactly the same dimensions as my beloved carry-everywhere camera (Minolta TC-1), except it's 2cm longer, leaving more place for holding it. When I used the TC-1, I actually thought a bit longer wouldn't hurt, so it seems to be quite perfectly proportioned for my purposes.

    The fixed lens is then the main compromise: digital cameras are just a lot harder to design than film ones, so Leica had the choice here: either it would be a fixed lens camera, or it would be a new system, bigger and a lot more pricey, but then it would compete with the newly introduced M9. If it's true that the sensor is the one from the D300 and the lens is a typical Leica gem and the whole implementation is good, then it has the potential to be an incredible pocketable and it will be extremely hard for anybody to come close. Definitely, if all of those "ifs" are achieved, $2K is not very expensive.

    I think the controls are a bit funny, though. Another poster mentioned the flash, saying it is a kowtow to the P&S crowd. I don't think so. The design by itself looks great. The main issue is whether it will have some decent flash control. My TC-1 allowed me to balance flash & ambient just by selecting the aperture (if I was close to the subject, I'd close it down). If the X1 allows me to do this in a simple way, it could be quite useful as a fill-in flash, which would be great news. I'm a bit more curious about the position of the aperture dial: it could be either very good, or very bad. If it's in the way of my index finger when reaching over it to make a photo, it's very bad. But if it's not and it's very reachable with my thumb, it makes the camera very easy to use in aperture priority, which is my preferred mode of shooting. That would be very good.

    Final little thing is the screen. If I need an external OVF, the camera won't be half as pocketable. I hope the screen is really good. Possibly, Leica can still stick in a 900K pixel one before they release it and make it flare resistant. We'll just have to wait and see.

    Having seen the webcast yesterday, I have a pretty good feeling about Leica's strategy. They have carefully thought about their recent past and decided that rebranding wasn't the way to continue. Instead, they put some pride back into their work and designed three cameras that are quite awe inspiring. I am not an economist and I can't say if it'll make them survive the next 10 years, but if Leica has calculated their profit margins carefully and if the cameras get the rave reviews that I hope they will do, we could have a very fascinating reborn Leica entering the market.


    Peter.

  17. #67
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    If first reviews are going to confirm:

    UI x IQ = X1 !

    I'll get one.

  18. #68
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I know that Im stating the obvious here but it is certain that for the same price a good, almost like new ,with all bugs sorted M8, could also be yours.All this shows,I think,is that the buyers of the M8 payed quite a premium and have probably paid about a 1000 over its real value(and have helped leica stay afloat);the X1 is overpriced and that the M9,if it is as good as it should be,is a bit of a bargain.If it was weathersealed I might be selling stuff.
    However I still have my fingers crossed for the X1.

  19. #69
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    While it is true that a used M8 body can be had (at this point in time) for just a few hundred more than an X1 (which isn't available yet), the M8 will also require a lens.

    IMHO, if the X1 is overpriced, the M9 is too. If the M9 is fairly priced, then the X1 is too.

    If indeed the X1 has the same sensor as in the D300, this bodes well for exceptional IQ.

  20. #70
    Senior Member Erik Five's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Im interested in this camera. Need to see how it performs first though...

  21. #71
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    All this shows,I think,is that the buyers of the M8 payed quite a premium and have probably paid about a 1000 over its real value(and have helped leica stay afloat).

    They did and as you point out the M8 owners contributed in a major way to keep the company afloat.

    D300 sensor would be good but the low light D300 AF sucks. I doubt the AF performance of the X1 will be even on par with that of the D300.

  22. #72
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Hmm, I never had too much problem with low light AF on the D300. Perhaps because I was using a 50/1.2 manual focus lens.

  23. #73
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Yeah, that lens rocks on the D3 as well.

  24. #74
    Senior Member Scargos2's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    $1,500. is about right for a fixed lens camera. I was hoping for removable lens camera.
    for $2,000 it will be a tough sell IMHO
    Sunny Florida Rick of Fla

  25. #75
    Jamesmd
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I sold my M8 because of sight problems and focus , so for sure I'll get one , I'm ok with only a 35, I normally always had 35 on the camera , and I love the controls Mlike , and for sure the IQ is going to be very close to M8, the only but I find is not having a incamera viewfinder . with the optional one I understand you know you are focused with a led indicator , but focused on what ? well I'll get used to it .

    I think its a great camera for what its though for .

    Cheers

    James

  26. #76
    ljclark
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Greetings all...

    My initial reaction was "What were those guys smoking?"

    But the more I though about it, the more intrigued I became.

    I used to say that my desert island camera would be an M6 with the nice little C/V 35mm f/2.5 Pancake II. (And I still have a Minox GT-E in the cabinet.)

    So in the digital age, is this a desert island camera? (Where the island has a laptop, solar power, a decent printer, and a couple thousand ink cartridges?)

    There has been some kind of market research going on, and the X-1 seems to speak to a desire for quality, and maybe a slightly more simple approach to taking the pictures.

    I haven't talked to my local store yet, but I have an inkling of the demographic (most of which probably doesn't hang around these forums). But I'd want to have some big prints around the shop to show what the camera can do -- and those prints depend upon what Leica chooses to do with anti-aliasing, noise control, and some other factors.

    And to shift point of view just a little...next month I'm going to spend a few days in Paris walking around, taking in some museums, and maybe shooting some pictures. The M8 and some lenses will be accompanying me. On the other hand, I ask myself what I might do with one camera that had a nice sized sensor, and a moderately apertured single-focal-length lens. Could I shoot my whole trip with an X-1? I think so.

  27. #77
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Hands on review and ,if you scroll down a little,video of a working if pre production X1.

    http://www.quesabesde.com/noticias/l...s-video,1_5634

  28. #78
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Interesting...and it does have a manual focus option.

  29. #79
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    In the text he seems to like its weight and solid feel.

  30. #80
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Thanks for the link. It's smaller than the E-P1, that's the one thing that's been missing for the past couple of days, a direct size comparison.

    I figured it would have a solid feel due to it's all metal construction.

    Really liking the simple interface with the dials on top. Use the viewfinder with LED focus confirmation, turn off the LCD and just use the top dials. Nice.

  31. #81
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Use the viewfinder with LED focus confirmation, turn off the LCD and just use the top dials.
    Pardon my ignorance. Where is the viewfinder?

    I think the pop-up flash is really neat. It will get the attention of any kid.

  32. #82
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box


  33. #83
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Agreed Monza,I think the autofocus speed on a production model will be the clincher.

  34. #84
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Robert, That looks like a plain optical finder. Does it it have LED focus confirmation and such?

  35. #85
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    From the X1 brochure:

    The X1 is endowed with a completely different character when the dedicated accessory finder matched to the focal length of its lens is attached to the hot shoe. Just raise the camera with this optional accessory to your eye, assess the situation in an instant, and shoot – all rather discreet and in a split second. If required, the camera dis- play can be turned off when using the accessory finder. In this case, a prominently placed LED still confirms successful automatic focusing.

  36. #86
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Interesting. I will take a look when the dealer around the block gets one.

  37. #87
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Yes, its a bit expensive, and its a bit funky... but it kind of hits the spot. THere are many attractive things about this camera, not the least of which is its small size as has been noted before. The fixed lens is OK - I shot for 20 years with an M2 and a 35 'cron, and was very happy with that. If you want more flexibility - an M8. More pixels, $ and flexibility - M9. Simplicity and quality - X1. Sounds good to me.

  38. #88
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Interesting. I will take a look when the dealer around the block gets one.
    The confirm light is on the body but in a spot that you can see it when using the finder. There are a couple of other cameras where it works this way. Very smart design.

  39. #89
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    The only thing I'm not entirely delighted about with the X1 design is the retracting lens. Retractable lenses always have some risk of becoming decentered and/or loose, and take a few extra moments to deploy. There are servomotors to worry about, and it's often hard to find a lens hood that fits them properly even when retracted.

    I'd have been happier if they had stuck with a rigid lens barrel that I could put a good, solid lens hood on and be ready at any time, like the excellent Konica Hexar AF and its non-retracting 35mm f/2 lens made in the 1990s. Solid, simple, less prone to jamming or decentering if I knock it into something accidentally. Exactly what I want for a camera I'd like to keep with me all the time.

    (It's the only part about my Rollei 35S that always annoyed me, having to extend and collapse the lens and how to deal with a lens hood... At least on that camera, it was a simple, manual, mechanical thing to do; I never worried about a servomotor jamming. I did have to replace lens tubes twice over the 20 some years I shot with it, however.)

    A small niggle really. The GF1 makes much more sense for my needs, but I'm very attracted to the X1.

  40. #90
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I want the X2 with a 35mm cron (for 52mm equivalent).

    I agree that the GF1 makes more "sense" but after messing with a Canon 5D2 for the last 24 hours, I'm longing for a simple UI (knobs...we love knobs!)

  41. #91
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    The confirm light is on the body but in a spot that you can see it when using the finder. There are a couple of other cameras where it works this way. Very smart design.
    So, that is a mechanical thing.

    One Cosina Bessa-L user added a tiny plastic prism on the metering LEDs so that exposure is discernable while using the 15mm viewfinder (I can't locate that thread in another site now).

  42. #92
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The only thing I'm not entirely delighted about with the X1 design is the retracting lens. Retractable lenses always have some risk of becoming decentered and/or loose, and take a few extra moments to deploy. There are servomotors to worry about, and it's often hard to find a lens hood that fits them properly even when retracted.



    A small niggle really. The GF1 makes much more sense for my needs, but I'm very attracted to the X1.

    Godfrey,

    You are forgetting that the Olympus-D 17/2.8 (or the kitzzoom of EP) and possibly the 20/1.7 from Pana, all retract while idling or not in use.

    Also, they (at least the 17/2.8 and the kitzzoom) are all quite fragile plastic construction.

    No worries about the lens hoods for the Oly lenses as Oly have not made any (that I know).

  43. #93
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I too would have prefered a near standard lens ,the DP2 is still too wide to be perfect but is nearer and appears to be close in build quality and lens quality.Picture quality is yet to be seen as is autofocus speed.Both of these cameras,to my mind,(have not used either)depend on their auto focus speed ,no wheel and screen can possibly cut it as far as I can see.The Dp2 has been found a little wanting ,better than the DP1 though,if the X1 is the same Ill be after a decent M8 2 body to which Ill super glue my pre-asph 35mm lux.............Neil.

  44. #94
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Godfrey,

    You are forgetting that the Olympus-D 17/2.8 (or the kitzzoom of EP) and possibly the 20/1.7 from Pana, all retract while idling or not in use.

    Also, they (at least the 17/2.8 and the kitzzoom) are all quite fragile plastic construction.

    No worries about the lens hoods for the Oly lenses as Oly have not made any (that I know).
    I didn't "forget" anything, Vivek. Far as I can tell from using it, the 17/2.8 (and the 20/1.7 from looking at it) do not "retract" at all. The lens portion of the mount resets to a minimum focus point like any unit shift lens. The X1 lens retracts and deploys for shooting.

    The M.Zuiko 17/2.8 is made to just about the same build quality as the ZD 25/2.8. While I wouldn't hammer nails with it, it has been quite robust in use for the past year and a half I've been shooting with it.

    Panasonic includes a lens hood for the 20/1.7. Olympus made one for the 25mm ... I hated it so I replaced it with a more suitable, standard metal hood.


  45. #95
    Senior Member markwon's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    I too would have prefered a near standard lens ,the DP2 is still too wide to be perfect but is nearer and appears to be close in build quality and lens quality.Picture quality is yet to be seen as is autofocus speed.Both of these cameras,to my mind,(have not used either)depend on their auto focus speed ,no wheel and screen can possibly cut it as far as I can see.The Dp2 has been found a little wanting ,better than the DP1 though,if the X1 is the same Ill be after a decent M8 2 body to which Ill super glue my pre-asph 35mm lux.............Neil.
    Agreed. I think the IQ will be there, but the AF will be the ultimate deal maker/breaker for the X1. Having owned the DP1, dlux4, and now the DP2, the wheel/screen manual focusing just doesn't cut it in real street shooting situations. You can't be as spontaneous and responsive as you need to be. If the X1 has fast AF, at least one could use the OVF and guesstimate where the focus will be. And like the Dlux4, I predict a price drop after about 6 months. I bought the dl4 for 850 when it came out, and only like two months later, they offered a 150 rebate before permanently dropping the price. Like the dl4 the price on this camera is inflated and should adjust.

  46. #96
    Member JSK Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I really wished the X1 were m4/3.
    i don't understand this, don't they want to make money?

  47. #97
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I am looking for X1 test images and can't find nothing

  48. #98
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Well Leica is trying to not fit in the norm. with products that they can call there own for one and also stay directly out direct competition. They simply have no apple to apple comparisons to other brands.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #99
    Member JSK Rangefinder's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    They don't have to fit if they don't want to, it just seemed possible and it would bring extra cash to fund other stuff plus it's such a sweet looking camera.

    I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND LEICA my father does but I CAN'T!

  50. #100
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    I am looking for X1 test images and can't find nothing
    You won't find any. The camera won't be out for a couple of months. There were some hands on previews but no images were posted. Probably too early in the firmware tweaking.

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