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Thread: The X1 Chat Box

  1. #1
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    The X1 Chat Box

    Let's start it here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    maybe i didnt read enough about it...but it doesnt look that impressive for 2k.

    why would i buy it over an older m8?

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I think my wife needs one of those for Christmas. Of course i'll have to play with it for awhile so I can give her some good tips on how best to use it. I bet she'll love it!

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    $2000 for a fixed slow lens? Ouch?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Interesting. Shake reduction (presumably in the body), relatively slow lens (GF1 has a f1.7), 3fps (don't care), AF (by whom?), presumably you can't get focus information through any viewfinder you'd add.

    Is it the dream camera or the answer to a question nobody asked? While there is something oddly compelling about it (mmm, red dot), seems like u4/3 is a way more flexible choice.

    If they'd put a 35/2 I would have been a lot more interested...

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Perspective... that's just below what I paid for my F5 brand new in 1997. If X1 was priced $1K I would have said Leica is nuts - $2K is beyond comprehension.
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    The slow lens worries me but they said very good low light performance.

    I like the concept.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    At $1K I likely would have bought one. The similar priced competition is more flexible but one could argue that the X1 is a very good one-trick pony. But at $2K you can buy a lot of different options (Sony a850, Pentax K7 and one or two ltd primes, etc)

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    $1K would be a fair price considering the Leica premium, the D-Lux 4 debuted @$850, and the DP1/2 are going for about $700 give or take. I agree that the Micro 4/3 take is a better option for most people who aren't brand sensitive and want a smaller camera. $2000 will get you all but the more prestigious full frame bodies.
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    GF-1 looks like a far better deal

  11. #11
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    yeah, my plan was to get the GF1 w/20/1.7 along with the Leica 45macro for small/street and the X1 price/specs reinforces that. That combo should come in well under $2K. Have to see the X1 in person though. I've been seduced before...

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    agree with everybody.

    i probably would have bitten at 1k, even though the speed of the lens annoys me. a Lux would have had me doing somersaults, but i would have happily settled on a Cron. at this price, though, a definite pass.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Yes,
    I already have the GF1 on order and I'm not canceling it. I do like the controls on the back which are similar to the M's. I really wished the X1 were m4/3.

  14. #14
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    It's funny because the M9 is actually "fairly priced" for what you get relative to the competition. I think $1K is too low for the X1 - too close to DP1/2 prices and the Leica will arguably be WAY better build quality. But $2K puts it in an opportunity cost area that is pretty deep. I'm thinking $1500 should have been the price. That would reflect the red dot tax, justify the better build quality, and excuse the slow lens.

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Too limited for me - fixed lens - no thanks - not at that price, red dot or not.

    GF-1 getting my close attention now.
    David Anderson

  16. #16
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    If its really quick itll be worth it especially if its well built.If not the DP2 is looking like a bargain.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I really wished the X1 were m4/3.
    Agree 100%. I was holding out on buying a new Micro 4/3 body in hopes that they changed their 4/3 stance. I love the look and form factor of the X1. I hate the price and lack of versatility. Final reservations for when I actually get my hands on it but I'd say I'd rather put $2K towards an M9 or another camera.

    Seriously $2K for a glorified point and shoot is absurd to be nice about it.Ican't really say much bad about the M9. I'm trying to really convince myself to start saving up for one.
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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    what's annoying is that my DLux4 is f2 at the wide end. I know it is a much smaller sensor they are covering, but for $2K they could have put a cron up front. As was said above, I think many of us would be more seriously looking at piggy banks around the house if it had a fast lens.

    Or maybe the f2.8 provides a convenient excuse to save money

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    what's annoying is that my DLux4 is f2 at the wide end. I know it is a much smaller sensor they are covering, but for $2K they could have put a cron up front. As was said above, I think many of us would be more seriously looking at piggy banks around the house if it had a fast lens.

    Or maybe the f2.8 provides a convenient excuse to save money
    I agree that a f/2 would have made more sense especially coming from the same D-Lux 4 mindset as you. A f/1.4 would be better and almost definitely be enough to justify the cost to most people though.
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  20. #20
    totallynatural
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I too was hoping (in hindsight, very very optimistically) that the X1 was going to be priced at around £1000-1500. I love the style of it, the shutter speed dial etc, pop up flash etc. I do not doubt at all that the X1 will be capable in the right hands of fantastic pics.

    At that price I may have been able to sell a few things (including my current camera) to afford it (I prefer to shoot at a single focal length using primes) and like the 35-40mm field of view. I also find using a single focal length forces me to think more about framing shots.

    The price of £2000, however, for a fixed focal length knocks it straight out of the ball park for me.

    I am also miffed that the optional viewfinder still does not come with an focus assist light (especially as I assume it will not be a cheap accessory).

    I think I'll stick to saving for some M-mount primes for my G1. I know Leica is considered 'elite' in terms of its products but I thought they were trying to get new customers (and £1000-1500 for fixed lens camera still isn't cheap).

    By pricing it as they did they relegate a lot of keen photographers who are not affluent but who would eventually like to own a leica product to continually dreaming.:sleep006:

    Fingers crossed rumours about an pentax mount interchangeable lens Ricoh are true...heres hoping

    If thats fails I'd better start saving for a M9 (or M11 as it will be by the time I can afford one :-) )
    Last edited by totallynatural; 9th September 2009 at 07:29.

  21. #21
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    It looks like an electronic shutter release rather than a mechanical one,its looking more panasonic than leica.I know the lens was a given but if it came with a 50mm cron equiv Id forgive it other faults.

  22. #22
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    There is some AF confirm with viewfinder, but I don't know what "prominently displayed" means exactly. In the OVF or somewhere else on the body, kinda like a bat signal?

    "The LEICA X1 offers a comprehensive range of accessories that expand the abilities of the camera and adapt it to the photographer’s personal photographic style: A 36-mm bright-line accessory, for instance, can be inserted in the camera’s accessory shoe and ensures a clear view without unnecessary power drain. If required, the camera display can be switched off when an accessory finder is used. In this case, a prominently placed LED indicates successful automatic focusing."

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    After looking more at X1 I'll my compact camera need by using my Barnaks and upgrading to the Ricoh GR-DIII. I need to save money anyway for the Luigi Case for the M9.

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    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    comparing the x1 against the sigma dp2 and the other recent cameras in similar category 2,000$ is steep, but in all fairness to leica the x1's built (from what i've gathered from reid's preview) is better than its competitors, and its write speed is quick.

    reid suspects that the sensor is the same as the nikon d300 which is very good. to top it off, no other point-and-shoot has a leica elmarit lens attached to a camera with analog access to its shutter and aperture settings. a leica lens without the body can cost as much as an x1.

    if the high ISO images are as good as leica claims, then f2.8 may not be "slow". from what i've read, i think it has a lot going for it – it has great potential. we'll just have to wait for reid's review on the x1. i'm looking forward for his review.

    however, i think it would be so much cooler if the lcd screen was articulated. it'd really be so much fun for waist level photography.

  25. #25
    divory
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Hang on, we are comparing apples with oranges. The X1 has the same size sensor as a Nikon D300, substantially larger than the m4/3 cameras. For roughly the same pixel count the sensor on the X1 is 23.6mx15.8m whilst the 4/3 standard is 17.3x13mm. that should result in much better quality images and low light performance.

    Now whether this is worth the additional cost is up to the relative importance the purchase puts on performance. If the Leica glass is up to standard, then this will be one of the most interesting small cameras on the market (IMHO).

    david

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Some tech data . Hopefully will get more info

    Technical data LEICA X1

    Lens LEICA ELMARIT 1:2.8/24 ASPH.
8 elements in 6 groups
1 aspherical lens
    Optical zoom No
    Digital Zoom No
    Focal Distance f = 24 mm (35 mm Equivalent: 36 mm)
    Aperture F2.8 / F16.0 (1/3EV steps)
    Focusing Area Normal: 60 cm - infinity
    Macro 30 cm - infinity
    Manual Focus 30 cm - infinity
    AF Metering 1-point / 1-point high speed /11-point / 11-point high speed / Spot / face detection
    AF Assist Lamp Yes
    Image Sensor APS-C CMOS sensor, 12.9 megapixels, aspect ratio 3:2
    Camera Effective Pixels 12,2 Megapixels
    ISO Sensitivity Auto / 100 / 200 / 400 / 800 / 1600 / 3200
    White Balance Auto / Halogen / Daylight / Flash / Cloudy / Shadow/ Manual 1 / Manual 2
    White Balance Adjustment (2 axis)
    Exposure Program automatic / Aperture priority automatic / Shutter priority automatic / Manual
    Exposure Compensation 1/3 EV step, -3 - +3 EV
    Auto Bracketing 1/3 - 3EVstep, 3 frames
    Light Metering Intelligent Multiple / Center weighted / Spot
    Shutter Speed 30 - 1/2000 sec
    Self Timer 2 sec / 12 sec
    Auto Review 1 sec / 3 sec / 5 sec / hold
    Film Mode Standard, Vivid, Natural, BW Natural, BW High Contrast
    Recording Format JPEG, DNG
    Aspect Ratio 3:2
    Image Size 4272 x 2586 pixels (12.2M), 3264 x 2160 pixels (7M), 2144 x 1424 pixels (3M), 1632 x 1080 pixels (1.8M)
    Image Quality JPG Super Fine / JPG Fine / DNG + JPG Super Fine / DNG + JPG Fine
    Motion Picture: No
    Burst Shooting Mode 3 fps / 2 fps
    Max pictures in JPEG FINE + RAW 6 pictures
    Built-in-Memory Approx. 50 MB
    Built-in-Flash Auto, Auto / Red-eye Reduction, Forced On, Forced On / Red-eye, Slow Sync, Slow Sync. / Red-eye Reduction, Studio First curtain / Second curtain can be set
    Hot Shoe YES , Compatible with SF24D, SF58
    LCD 2.7" LCD (230K Pixels) TFT
    Field of View approx. 100%
    Playback Mode 16 - thumbnail display, Zoomed playback (16x Max.), Image rotation(except RAW) , Protection
    Recording Media Built-in Memory, SD Memory Card, SDHC Memory Card
    Microphone No
    Speaker Yes
    Interface HDMI Output, USB (USB 2.0 High Speed, Mass Storage)
    Power Li-ion Battery Pack (Included)
    Battery Life (Approx.)
    (CIPA standard): 260 exposures
    Battery Charging time 200 min
    Dimensions (Approx.) H 59.5× W 108.7 × D 27.1 mm
    Weight (Approx.) 286 g
    Scope of delivery LEICA BP-DC8 rechargeable battery
    Battery charger (LEICA BC-DC8)
    Protective battery cover
    Leather carrying strap
    USB cable
    Lens cap
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    Super Duper
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    What resolution is the screen on the X1?
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I'll pass--fix lens kills it more for me than it's slowness. GF-1 is still on order.

    Now the M9, on the other hand, has me looking at my D700 kit, and MP kit, a little differently, if you know what I mean.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Sorry missed your post Guy, 230K, at $2K. Sorry but that's cheap for them to put a out of date screen in at that price point.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  30. #30
    totallynatural
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    There is some AF confirm with viewfinder, but I don't know what "prominently displayed" means exactly. In the OVF or somewhere else on the body, kinda like a bat signal?
    Aaah, sorry missed that! Thanks
    Last edited by totallynatural; 9th September 2009 at 08:08.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by divory View Post
    Hang on, we are comparing apples with oranges. The X1 has the same size sensor as a Nikon D300, substantially larger than the m4/3 cameras. For roughly the same pixel count the sensor on the X1 is 23.6mx15.8m whilst the 4/3 standard is 17.3x13mm. that should result in much better quality images and low light performance.

    Now whether this is worth the additional cost is up to the relative importance the purchase puts on performance. If the Leica glass is up to standard, then this will be one of the most interesting small cameras on the market (IMHO).

    david
    Apples and orange... Possibly depending on your perspective.

    For the same $2000 one could get a D300 kit and still have versatility. One could also have a Micro 4/3 kit with an extra lens or two. Sure you have about 25% more sensor covered but the 4/3 sensor isn't exactly a slouch in its own right. One could go a850 and have full frame as well.

    Different strokes for different folks I guess. I just don't really get how an overpriced P&S is the most feasible idea above their own Micro 4/3 variant.
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I liked it better, when I thought it was a fixed lens that didn't extend and had a focus wheel on the lens.

    Now, without any word of seals, it sounds like the lens goes out, dust gets on the lens, the lens goes back in the camera with the dust, dust settles on the sensor, camera goes back to Leica to get dust removed from sensor, and doesn't come back for a very long time. Not being able to clean the sensor is sort of like not being able to put air in your tires. Well, maybe not exactly, but........

  33. #33
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Since the screen is the focus tool, going hi rez is a good thing. If they had put a cron or lux on the front and a 900K screen on the back, I think you'd see a different tone on this board.

    And just because it has an APS-C sensor doesn't necessarily mean it will have better low light performance than a u4/3 camera. The devil is in the details...

    And Canon figured out how to put a "focus ring" (and more) on the new S90. Why couldn't they do that on the X1?

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Has anyone confirmed it's a Sony sensor?

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Has anyone confirmed it's a Sony sensor?
    yea I want to know who makes a 12mp 1.5x cmos sensor?

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Well we ha a X1 sample to try today. No card in it and badged "Sample not Final".
    The lens is a 24/2.8 elmarit wich seems to be an equivalent of a 35mm in FOV. The camera looks like a little M8 (less heavy !!) and has a good reactivity with quite beautiful picture in low light (wich was the case in the showroom).
    That's all I can say , the guy said they are still tuning the firmware and fixing problem with IQ...

    I took a black M9 and well this is is a hell of a camera...I try the 2500 iso with a Noctilux 0.95 : believe me it rocks !!!
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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I also found something odd on Sean Reid's site about the X1 based on his preview at Solms. He stated while the X1 was designed by Leica. It was manufactured in Japan and not by Panasonic. I thought I heard the webcast say it manufactured in Germany.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Looks beautiful if nothing else. That circular flash is a touch of designer genius.

    And, with so much thought going into design, it must also be a great camera There's some back to front logic for everyone.

  39. #39
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    I also found something odd on Sean Reid's site about the X1 based on his preview at Solms. He stated while the X1 was designed by Leica. It was manufactured in Japan and not by Panasonic. I thought I heard the webcast say it manufactured in Germany.
    Sounds like a Nikon D300 sensor to me.
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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    If it is a Nikon sensor, Leica has taken a page out of the Epson playbook where the R-D1 used the D100 sensor.
    Last edited by johnastovall; 9th September 2009 at 10:42.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    The new Canon S90 looks to be a better deal ergonomically and on price. The GF1 or the EP1 are far better deals with their interchangeable lenses. If Oly releases the new faster focus firmware for camera and lens on 9/15 that I saw in a response letter to a 43rds poster in another forum and it is as quick as the Panasonic then it really gets to be hard to justify the X1. I fully expect both Canon and Nikon to jump into the large sensor small body market soon as they have to be watching what has been happening with Panny & Oly.
    V/r John

  42. #42
    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Sony A700 sensor? - No?
    David Anderson

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I'm thinking the X1 maybe the first camera made which comes close to Mike Johnson's "Decisive Moment Digital" concept.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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  44. #44
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Will it fit in a shirt pocket?
    Sláinte

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    The new Canon S90 looks to be a better deal ergonomically and on price.
    S90 is small sensor - no comparison for IQ.

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    Member Arjuna's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I am slightly surprised by the negative reactions to the X1; resisitance to its price and to its fixed lens, mostly.

    Leicas are generally expensive: it seems to me to be a digital CM, and that class of film cameras - compact, high quality, fixed lens cameras like the CM, Contax T's, etc., were expensive in their day. A 24mm Elmarit M lens by itself costs more than US$2000. The lens on the X1 may not have the same optical and mechanical quality as an M lens, but I would guess that it would be designed to match the sensor, so that there should be little or no issues with micro-lenses, IR filters, vignetting, etc.. Although the m4/3 cameras are, in some senses, revolutionary, and produce very good image quality, I think that they are still a step below an M8 in terms of image quality, and I would like to think that three or four years after the M8, the image quality of the X1 would be similar or better - the performance of the X1, unknown at the moment, will determine whether it is worth the price or not, I think. Is its CMOS sensor, of currently unknown provenance, with its currently unknown AA/IR filtration, a match for the Kodak CCD with no AA filter in the M8?

    As to the fixed lens issue, there was some market in the past for the CM type cameras, and for the Sigma DP1/2 cameras now, although it may be small. Some of us are lazy about changing lenses, and tend to use just one for the vast majority of our shots. If you are interested in a fairly compact camera, then carrying extra lenses, and paying for Leica-quality extra lenses, may not be all that interesting. Interchangeable lenses would also bring up viewfinder issues, and the big question, which mount? If M-mount, then it becomes a kind of M8.3 lite, or digital CL, and would probably cannibalize M9 sales. For m4/3 mount, it would seem that rebadging a Panasonic body would be the usual response. If Leica were to build their own m4/3 body, then they would have to compete against the manufacturing capabilities of Panasonic and Olympus. m4/3 cameras can already use M lenses, although the crop factor is a bit of a problem, and I understand that there are some issues with wide angle lenses and the lack of micro-lenses on the m4/3 sensors. If Leica were to build their own m4/3 camera, they would probably also want to design and build a set of m4/3-specific lenses, making it a bigger project, and requiring Leica to compete in a relatively low-priced market - sounds like a bad idea to me.

    It has a bigger sensor, probably a better lens, and probably better image quality than the Sigma DP and m4/3 competition, albeit with a fixed lens, and it is cheaper and a bit smaller and lighter, than a used M8 with a 28 Elmarith ASPH, which would be the approximate equivalent, although it lack the option of more lenses. It seems like a very interesting camera to me.

  47. #47
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Should we move the X1 to another forum. It really don't fit anywhere else
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I think it's fine here in the Leica forum.. Technically it's a APS-C sensor so it is only slightly smaller than an M8 sensor. Maybe this forum should include more than just M and R systems.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    I agree it stays. X,M and R . The S I think is a MF forum candidate
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  50. #50
    nei1
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    Re: The X1 Chat Box

    Surely the question is how much leica is in the x1.If the high asa is so good why the flash,flash goes against both my and leicas philosophy as stated in todays speech.This is cultural design to pull up sales from the point and shooters or as the man said;for beginners.Also if the M8 is shelved why not use its sensor.I think more money will be made from each x1 than from the M9 which in comparison looks reasonably priced.
    Last edited by nei1; 9th September 2009 at 13:56.

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