P
pascal_meheut
Guest
Yes, I thought of that but on the other hand, LCDs are not supposed to burn. Firing the shutter 700 to 1000 times is risky too.
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Recycle M8 batteries
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
Agree with the risk about using shutter actuations to deplete a battery. More stress on mechanicals than you want/need. For the LCD thing, I set my camera to not go to sleep, but I let the LCD go to sleep normally. Yes, this does take longer to drain the battery, but it also removes that worry about screen burn in, which should not be an issue with LCDs anyway.
LJ
LJ
scott kirkpatrick
Well-known member
Pascal, that's an interesting data point, one I wouldn't be willing to do on my own camera. Did you set it on C and hold the button down for 5+ minutes or shoot more slowly? Did a blank or boring frame get written to the card on each shot? Did you have to stop when the card got full, or was there a way to fire steadily without having the shots recorded? How long did it take in all?
The reason I ask is that from time to time I measure how cameras are designed to manage their power consumption. If you did record the shots, or at least the first and last of them, you could use CornerFix to read out the internal temperature in the camera, and see if the stress of such rapid shooting showed up as heating.
The typical claim is about 400 exposures per battery charge. It took me about 6-7 hours to discharge my battery by leaving the LCD on in Play mode without firing a single shot when I was testing it last spring. So if 350 minutes is the battery life for an M8 just thinking, and 700 shots is the lifetime just shooting without time to think, then a typical 400 shots battery life means that the camera stays alert for no more than 20-30 seconds per shot. (My reasoning is that cocking the shutter 400 times uses 4/7 of the battery's energy, leaving 3/7 or no more than 150 minutes for the other functions.)
Just wondering.
scott
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Interesting Scott now we can't truly go by mine because they are suspect to begin with and your comments just may have enforced my thinking on my overall i think my batteries maybe at the end of there useful life. The reason I say that is because maybe only 3 or 4 hours to deplete mine. I just did the camera on the whole time and no LCD. Hmmm
I have a little shoot today but will not get past 80 frames in this case though. i need to go out and burn some frames to see if this helped any.
I have a little shoot today but will not get past 80 frames in this case though. i need to go out and burn some frames to see if this helped any.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
BTW Pascal nice of you to join the forum. Enjoy yourself
P
pascal_meheut
Guest
Ok, I shot with a card, C mode, shutter 1/8000th, cap on the lens & jpeg.
So I had to shot 5 or 6 images at a time and wait for the buffer to clear. It took me some timeto do the 700 actuations, 1 hour or more but basically, I was working on the computer with the M8 near me and pressing the shutter as a background task.
I did not kept the images unfortunately but I can try to get them back tonight. The camera was pretty hot at the end but could still be hold hand no problem.
BTW, 700 pictures is a low figure: it took more than 300 pictures to go to 2/3 rd on the indicator, almost the same to go to the 1/3 rd and then, the battery was empty quite suddenly.
I had already done it to do a full cycle on a brand new battery and it took more than 1000 shots then.
P
pascal_meheut
Guest
Ok, I retrieved some of the files and temperature went from 19°C to 26°C after 500 images shot in 1 hour 15 min.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
That is interesting. I tried leaving the camera on and the LCD off on 4 different batteries. One was dead in maybe 3 hours, 2 others closer to 6 hrs and the last one longer than that. I have about 12K images on the M8 s and recharge everytime I use the camera. Always start with charged battery and formatted card. But I think Guy is right ...I probably need a few new batteries. Roger
Hello Guy!
When recharging as soon as 70-80% capacity is reached, a recharge will not count (in the 300-500 range) and the battery will work its whole "chemical lifespan" (about 4-6 years).
In case of fully discharge a Li-Ion battery, the probability to "underdischarge" is also very high and one or both cells could be irreversibly distroyed.
Well, this is one of the best descriptions, to kill Li-Ion batteries indentionally.
From the view of the Li-Ion battery, a "full recharge cycle" is a recharge from below 50% capacity. Common batteries will accept 300-500 such recharges and than will die in short time.
When recharging as soon as 70-80% capacity is reached, a recharge will not count (in the 300-500 range) and the battery will work its whole "chemical lifespan" (about 4-6 years).
In case of fully discharge a Li-Ion battery, the probability to "underdischarge" is also very high and one or both cells could be irreversibly distroyed.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well interesting there still alive and well but have to be honest i have seen a bunch of reports on this and they contradict each other. Not sure what to make of that. Not being a engineer here so whatever works is fine with me but it needs to be clear. I have only done this twice but even leica recommends this to reset the camera. many other folks have also gone this route and seem okay. Now these were taken all the way down to exhaustion and took a full charge as I know it , maybe not. I need to get out there and shoot to see how long the life is, maybe it got shorter. But after the cold issue something needs to be addressed with mine.
W
wparsons
Guest
With regard to life, I have 2 batteries for my D2, one a Leica battery, one a Panasonic, both of which are 4 years old.
I had occasion to pull out the D2 recently and the batteries are fine. Unfortunately the sensor died when I checked the camera and the D2 went to Leica for sensor replacement this weekend.
But the Li-ion batteries are just fine after 4 years.
I had occasion to pull out the D2 recently and the batteries are fine. Unfortunately the sensor died when I checked the camera and the D2 went to Leica for sensor replacement this weekend.
But the Li-ion batteries are just fine after 4 years.
Hello Guy!
I am a chemist with almost 40 year of experience in (more or less) hobby electronics. Your advise - totally discharge - is correct for NiFe, NiCd and NiMh type of batteries, but in consequence, not for Li-Ion type of batteries.
State of the art in manufacturing Li-Ion is far, far behind of that for NiXx batteries. I think, NiMh is on top of its product life cycle, well researched, but almost outdated (well, NiFe is still in use in "under day" mining).
There exist only a few hints (in comparision to other type of batteries) how to handle Li-Ion more "live save". One of them is, never discharge them too low (although they will often survive such a mistreatment). Depending on manufacturing details, the significant voltages (min and max) differ in such a case, that high quality Li-Ion batteries will be as expensive as we know it.
The capacity of any batterie is the product of voltage, current and time. It is obvious, that little increase of charge voltage will significantly increase the capacity. So manufacturers of batteries always tend to make the max. charge voltage as high as possible (and also the min discharge voltage as low as possible). You can see this often in advertisement of second source batteries, which have much more "typical" capacity than regular batteries.
This advantage is bought by slightly increasing max charge voltage. (0.05 - 0.1V) and/or slightly decreasing min discharge voltage.
Batteries of a certain brand are always sorted out, which means, they are of a well defined charge/discharge voltage assignement, and consequently their price is adequatly higher.
And not forgetting the most important hint, recharge your Li-Ion battery as often as you can and do not wait till it is discharged more than 70 to 80 percent. On my M8 (and 5D), I instantly recharge, when one of the marks in the battery indicator removes. I do this also in my mobile phone and in my laptop.
In some series of IBM laptops (ThinkPad) there is a capacity quality monitor, which is a simple counter, starting at the value of 100 and each discharge below 50% decreases this counter by one. Often the battery is already unuseable when count goes down to 20...
Of course, from the point of view of an user, you are quite right. I am sorry, that my first post (or reply, reading here from day one) is a kind of bad news.
I am a chemist with almost 40 year of experience in (more or less) hobby electronics. Your advise - totally discharge - is correct for NiFe, NiCd and NiMh type of batteries, but in consequence, not for Li-Ion type of batteries.
State of the art in manufacturing Li-Ion is far, far behind of that for NiXx batteries. I think, NiMh is on top of its product life cycle, well researched, but almost outdated (well, NiFe is still in use in "under day" mining).
There exist only a few hints (in comparision to other type of batteries) how to handle Li-Ion more "live save". One of them is, never discharge them too low (although they will often survive such a mistreatment). Depending on manufacturing details, the significant voltages (min and max) differ in such a case, that high quality Li-Ion batteries will be as expensive as we know it.
The capacity of any batterie is the product of voltage, current and time. It is obvious, that little increase of charge voltage will significantly increase the capacity. So manufacturers of batteries always tend to make the max. charge voltage as high as possible (and also the min discharge voltage as low as possible). You can see this often in advertisement of second source batteries, which have much more "typical" capacity than regular batteries.
This advantage is bought by slightly increasing max charge voltage. (0.05 - 0.1V) and/or slightly decreasing min discharge voltage.
Batteries of a certain brand are always sorted out, which means, they are of a well defined charge/discharge voltage assignement, and consequently their price is adequatly higher.
And not forgetting the most important hint, recharge your Li-Ion battery as often as you can and do not wait till it is discharged more than 70 to 80 percent. On my M8 (and 5D), I instantly recharge, when one of the marks in the battery indicator removes. I do this also in my mobile phone and in my laptop.
In some series of IBM laptops (ThinkPad) there is a capacity quality monitor, which is a simple counter, starting at the value of 100 and each discharge below 50% decreases this counter by one. Often the battery is already unuseable when count goes down to 20...
scott kirkpatrick
Well-known member
Guy -- I'm well-read on the subject of batteries, but not a real chemist. You are hearing two points made -- it costs and imposes a risk to completely discharge a Li-Ion battery, and from the battery's point of view, there is no need to do it if you can keep it always nearly topped off. Second, the charge monitors that are in the camera and in the battery get confused from shallow recharging, but can be reset by a single deep charge.
I've seen the monitor effect for years. An IBM colleague in the group which developed the ThinkPad laptop once measured the apparent battery capacity in every one of the group's laptops after a year of each one sitting attached to an AC charger, and found that all had lost about half of their apparent capacity, probably due to the confused monitor effect. So I think the cost of an infrequent deep discharge is what we pay for having an accurate indication, and it is optional.
scott
I've seen the monitor effect for years. An IBM colleague in the group which developed the ThinkPad laptop once measured the apparent battery capacity in every one of the group's laptops after a year of each one sitting attached to an AC charger, and found that all had lost about half of their apparent capacity, probably due to the confused monitor effect. So I think the cost of an infrequent deep discharge is what we pay for having an accurate indication, and it is optional.
scott
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Isaac and Scott , honestly the best clean advice i have seen on this. So let me ask the question and i will repeat it for Isaac since he does not know what happened. When i was in Moab Utah doing the workshop in the cold i had many shutdowns compared to everyone else , there were a few others that had issues but i was the worst. Maybe 8-10 times i had to switch batteries because it died on me. Now i also have the most of anyone of charges and usage on these batteries. Maybe 30 k in exposures and countless charging. i top off like you guys mentioned, get home from a shoot and just throw them on the chargers and get ready for the next shoot.
I guess the question is this , are mine just worn out from time and use. I know this can happen and sounds like the case.
Now when the camera and batteries are not resetting the charge monitors that are in the camera and in the battery gets confused from shallow recharging, but can be reset by a single deep charge. I stole your line here Scott. But what advice should we be doing and how,so forum members get this correct.
I guess the question is this , are mine just worn out from time and use. I know this can happen and sounds like the case.
Now when the camera and batteries are not resetting the charge monitors that are in the camera and in the battery gets confused from shallow recharging, but can be reset by a single deep charge. I stole your line here Scott. But what advice should we be doing and how,so forum members get this correct.
robsteve
Subscriber
We have to remember that the suggestion was to discharge the battery using the M8. I assume the M8 will shut down before the battery voltage gets so low as to damage the battery.
In regards to the Thinkpad batteries and monitor program, it will suggest a recondition which involves unplugging the laptop and turning off the shut off timers to drain the battery, much like Guy described in his first post of this thread.
In regards to the Thinkpad batteries and monitor program, it will suggest a recondition which involves unplugging the laptop and turning off the shut off timers to drain the battery, much like Guy described in his first post of this thread.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
You do have a point Robert , the camera just shuts down which could do that before the point of complete discharge of the battery. There actually could be some life to them but just the camera see's the battery as not having enough juice to run it and shuts down.
F
fotografr
Guest
scott kirkpatrick
Well-known member
I would think so as well. I have two old (5000 exposures) batteries and two new ones coming soon, so I'll do a little testing on this.
That's what people do today. But this experience was about 10 years ago. There's one other interesting aspect with laptops -- most of them can be operated with only the AC converter plugged in and the battery removed. From time to time I have had what seems like a totally dead battery in a laptop, and find that removing the battery lets me get booted up, then replacing the battery leaves everything working just fine. Another reason why the M8 should have an aux power input, to prevent some of the causes of apparent SDS.
scott
scott kirkpatrick
Well-known member
I'm just suggesting that before you give up on them, try one deep discharge and recharge and see if they come back.
scott