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Sean Reid s Review of the M9

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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That actually makes sense. The bigger sensor will show less noise due to less magnification for sure.

DR on the M9 though maybe different because of the Ad converter has been improved on the M9.

Color should remain. Same basic sensor and if the profile is correct for the increased red channel and lower green and blue than it should match. One reason I been mentioning a new profile or update on the raw processing the algorithm is different than the M8 but when corrected it should match the M8 color.

Resolution on same print size than the M9 should be better unless I missed something there.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks for the explanation Guy,you see I dont spend that much time on these forums but having checked it all out a little I see what you mean..handbags at dawn!
Glad youre getting an M9 ,be nice to read a working photographers views.
Dont suppose youd try putting it under the tap for me to see how it copes with adverse weather?:eek::)
Yea Neil it's just something that is silly in the end. I'm sure after the dust settles all will be fine there. I wish them all the best in working that out. BTW I did not want to blow you off either on it but as you see what it comes down to it just not worth the read actually.

Hell it don't rain in Arizona :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

You know I really never had a issue with water in light rain on any gear. Let's face it I don't want to get to wet either by than the light is crap and you want to go home anyway.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
This is correct... I am not one to pay attention to the technical stuff and as long as the tools I use are reliable don't really care about anything else... After all, I still shoot Holgas :D

My only goal when making images is trying to faithfully record a moment in time even if the results are not technically perfect. I will take a grainy, dark image that moves or invites the viewer anyday before a techically perfect but boring one.

Cheers,

Riccis
You know I love your work and respect your POV. High ISO performance is a technical subject and has nothing to do with the artistic merit of your examples.. They are excellent images in the hands of a very skilled photographer .

However I don t think they demonstrate high ISO performance(except in reduced noise in the shadows). This is important to a street bum like myself because we take the light we can get.
For example I am as interested in the new Noctilux performance as the the M9 sensor . When the 21/24 1.4 lenses came out this gave me 2EV more to work with . A really big deal for street work. I will bust my butt to learn to use these lenses wide open on moving subjects . The M needs 2 more EV to cover 99% of all street situations. Anything short of that requires a work around....slower shutter speed ,special processing etc.

Since this is an important capability for a sweet spot in M photography ..thought maybe a discussion of Sean s report might be meaningful.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
That actually makes sense. The bigger sensor will show less noise due to less magnification for sure.

DR on the M9 though maybe different because of the Ad converter has been improved on the M9.

Color should remain. Same basic sensor and if the profile is correct for the increased red channel and lower green and blue than it should match. One reason I been mentioning a new profile or update on the raw processing the algorithm is different than the M8 but when corrected it should match the M8 color.

Resolution on same print size than the M9 should be better unless I missed something there.
Guy

Agree with what you have said....can you see any of this in Sean Reid s examples?

When I speak to color I am referring to color saturation(isn t this called color depth by the MF team ). On paper the uncompressed DNG s should retain more color depth . Just to be sure isn this the capability to see tone separation in say a bold color area . with the DMR you can see the subtle shading in a colored shirt for example that you will not see with a canon file (or at least in my canon files).

No question the M9 has the potential to be better than the M8 in every area ...but the early tests results aren t showing much? I do see better color in Jono s images but this maybe more effective processing as there are no side by side comparisons . Hope you are right on the new firmware and profiles.
 

Riccis

New member
Riccis
You know I love your work and respect your POV. High ISO performance is a technical subject and has nothing to do with the artistic merit of your examples.. They are excellent images in the hands of a very skilled photographer .

However I don t think they demonstrate high ISO performance(except in reduced noise in the shadows). This is important to a street bum like myself because we take the light we can get.
For example I am as interested in the new Noctilux performance as the the M9 sensor . When the 21/24 1.4 lenses came out this gave me 2EV more to work with . A really big deal for street work. I will bust my butt to learn to use these lenses wide open on moving subjects . The M needs 2 more EV to cover 99% of all street situations. Anything short of that requires a work around....slower shutter speed ,special processing etc.

Since this is an important capability for a sweet spot in M photography ..thought maybe a discussion of Sean s report might be meaningful.
The light gathering capabilities of the Noctilux is the reason why I didn't really need to go over ISO 1000... I believe there will be new shipments coming soon so hopefully you can get your hands on one to test.

As always, I am very appreciative of your kind comments.

Cheers,
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No I cannot see his review.

Yes we do refer that to color depth and yes the uncompressed DNG is 14 bit I believe compared to the 8 bit compressed file. There should be a subtle difference between them. Basically you should be getting the best saturation and color depth in the 14 bit. The DMR is 16 nit so yes you would see it more like a MF file with more color toning across over a 12 bit file per say. Yes lets see what that new firmware and color profiles brings to the table. C1 in the past over LR also had a longer tonal range , not so sure that is true anymore though.

Roger try Prophoto as your color space. It holds the biggest color space. There is another but Prophoto is good

I'm also going to have Bob and Jack double check me here just to be clear.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
The light gathering capabilities of the Noctilux is the reason why I didn't really need to go over ISO 1000... I believe there will be new shipments coming soon so hopefully you can get your hands on one to test.

As always, I am very appreciative of your kind comments.

Cheers,
please call me first when you decide to sell yours .....LOL :D

I am still not sure I want to change for the new Noctilux look....I really like the old version for street shooting at night and I have the 50 1.4asph if I can get enough light. But I will probably cave in eventually.
 

nostatic

New member
Sean explains that the M8 files maybe negatively impacted by upresing them for printing or conversely that the lower magnification required to print the larger M9 file may reduce the apparent noise. Its still there just not a prominent . This was a common discussion when comparing the noise of a 5DII file with the d3/D700. The argument is that you have to use similar magnifications to have an apples to apples comparison.
ahh, gotcha. Yeah, that one bit me when I was trying to decide between D700 and 5D2. By (bad) habit I did some 100% viewing and thought, "hmm, the D700 does kill everything wrt hi iso noise." Then I instead cropped the same relative area in the same shot with equivalent lenses - and the 5D2 was pretty much on-par with the D700. Far too easy to get tripped up by not factoring in the variable. And *way* too easy to get carried away pixel peeping. :deadhorse:
 

JSK Rangefinder

New member
I don't have a M8 but we can at least see what is going on and i can shoot my P30+ next to it to compare noise because we know it's standard if we want which is the same 6.8 micron. Not sure it would benefit us but maybe interesting.
I think you should get one of GetDPI members to lend you M8 not sure if Jack has his still and make it clear (non nonsense test) like you usually do along with P30+

I think it's worth the stretch considering whatever you tested so far is
nothing less than 100% pure honest and without any hint of aspartame!!!
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
Almost all modern digital cameras have a color space that is larger than sRGB and some larger than Adobe RGB.
ALL rendition of color involves some degree of compression and occasionally expansion, or perhaps lets call it remapping, of the color space to some gamut that the display device (monitor, paper, or whatever) is able to reproduce.
So lets not confuse the raw file encoding of the numerical values in raw files to perceived color saturation.
24 bit color (8bit r g b) gives us 16777216 potential colors to work with. Complicating this is that the human visual system has a color gamut (the colors we are capable of perceiving) that is brightness dependent. At very low light, in fact, we have no color vision at all. At high levels we have no color reception either since our eyes saturate very much the same way that a sensor can have a blown highlight.
Simply encoding 14 or 16 bits linearly as the data exits the ad converters does not necessarily guarantee any perceptual difference whatsoever. Now linearly here, to digital engineers, is that the next higher order bit represents twice the value as the bit below it. That means it might have (color gamut/profile remapping aside) twice the brightness.
So in conceptual terms and using an 8 bit file as an illustration, there are only two levels (on and off) at the minimum brightness level. With three colors that gives you only eight colors at minimum levels. The interesting thing is that is fine with us humans, since when things are really really dark, we can't see color anyway.
The argument in favor of some other non-linear encoding method is that at the lower half of brightness levels there are 2097152 colors. that leaves 14680064 colors available in the bright half. Now if the sensor is "stretched" or digitally amplified, and I have my suspicions about which cameras do which, by shifting all of the available sensor data right one bit, the available number of colors in the high end remains the same, but the number of levels available in the low end drops in half. This is what some perceive as a reduction in dynamic range, which is indeed what it is. Even with additional analog amplification, random noise, or worse, non-random noise, enters the low bit positions. The M8 suffered badly from non-random noise since internal camera noise which is synched with internal clocks, could actually be seen as noise patterns imposed in the low "high iso" levels. This is usually mor obvious with ccd based camra with off-chip ad converters and poor electrical noise design. CMOS based integrated converter cameras don't have this problem, but they have more inherent conversion noise due to on-chip noise coupling and variability in terms of the integrated a/d converters. A different sort of problem. Companies with limited R&D resources tend to opt for ccd sensors and low integration levels.
thanks
-bob
 
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nostatic

New member
At very low light, in fact, we have no color vision at all. At high levels we have no color reception either since our eyes saturate very much the same way that a sensor can have a blown highlight.
No reception and blown highlights. That sounds like my first marriage...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy,
Almost all modern digital cameras have a color space that is larger than sRGB and some larger than Adobe RGB.
ALL rendition of color involves some degree of compression and occasionally expansion, or perhaps lets call it remapping, of the color space to some gamut that the display device (monitor, paper, or whatever) is able to reproduce.
So lets not confuse the raw file encoding of the numerical values in raw files to perceived color saturation.
24 bit color (8bit r g b) gives us 16777216 potential colors to work with. Complicating this is that the human visual system has a color gamut (the colors we are capable of perceiving) that is brightness dependent. At very low light, in fact, we have no color vision at all. At high levels we have no color reception either since our eyes saturate very much the same way that a sensor can have a blown highlight.
Simply encoding 14 or 16 bits linearly as the data exits the ad converters does not necessarily guarantee any perceptual difference whatsoever. Now linearly here, to digital engineers, is that the next higher order bit represents twice the value as the bit below it. That means it might have (color gamut/profile remapping aside) twice the brightness.
So in conceptual terms and using an 8 bit file as an illustration, there are only two levels (on and off) at the minimum brightness level. With three colors that gives you only eight colors at minimum levels. The interesting thing is that is fine with us humans, since when things are really really dark, we can't see color anyway.
The argument in favor of some other non-linear encoding method is that at the lower half of brightness levels there are 2097152 colors. that leaves 14680064 colors available in the bright half. Now if the sensor is "stretched" or digitally amplified, and I have my suspicions about which cameras do which, by shifting all of the available sensor data right one bit, the available number of colors in the high end remains the same, but the number of levels available in the low end drops in half. This is what some perceive as a reduction in dynamic range, which is indeed what it is. Even with additional analog amplification, random noise, or worse, non-random noise, enters the low bit positions. The M8 suffered badly from non-random noise since internal camera noise which is synched with internal clocks, could actually be seen as noise patterns imposed in the low "high iso" levels. This is usually mor obvious with ccd based camra with off-chip ad converters and poor electrical noise design. CMOS based integrated converter cameras don't have this problem, but they have more inherent conversion noise due to on-chip noise coupling and variability in terms of the integrated a/d converters. A different sort of problem. Companies with limited R&D resources tend to opt for ccd sensors and low integration levels.
thanks
-bob
One thing I have learned surround yourself with genius between Bob and Jack I'm all set. Now can you figure out if two slices of cheese on my burger is shortening my life by one minute or less. Love ya man
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
ahh, gotcha. Yeah, that one bit me when I was trying to decide between D700 and 5D2. By (bad) habit I did some 100% viewing and thought, "hmm, the D700 does kill everything wrt hi iso noise." Then I instead cropped the same relative area in the same shot with equivalent lenses - and the 5D2 was pretty much on-par with the D700. Far too easy to get tripped up by not factoring in the variable. And *way* too easy to get carried away pixel peeping. :deadhorse:
But as understand it .....this does not in anyway affect the dynamic range or color saturation which are affected by the sensors ISO performance. You can see this in the sensor evaluations on the DxO labs evaluations. So if you are looking primarily at the grainy clumping in the dark areas as your measure of high ISO you are only looking at part of the issue.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well Leica just called me . I WILL have a M9 and several lenses here Thursday for a long week end and actually put it to use on a golf tournament job on Friday. So there you go plus I will do some testing as well. Guy
I should have mine by Thursday also, and have a shoot on Saturday AM to try it out. I also updated C1 in readiness, but will try some of my Presets in LR also.

The fun will be shooting the M8 and M9 at the same shoot.
 

nostatic

New member
But as understand it .....this does not in anyway affect the dynamic range or color saturation which are affected by the sensors ISO performance. You can see this in the sensor evaluations on the DxO labs evaluations. So if you are looking primarily at the grainy clumping in the dark areas as your measure of high ISO you are only looking at part of the issue.
I actually don't focus so much on shadow noise. Instead I try to evaluate the whole picture (figuratively and literally) and I don't look at machine test numbers. I have never looked at DxO lab tests. While it can be fun (or not) to check images posted in the web, the reality is that I have a set of circumstances under which I shoot, so really all I care about is how the gear performs with my typical subjects under my typical conditions. So the best "tests" I've done are when I can shoot back to back and then go back and look at what I've got. "Noise" actually doesn't bother me as long as it fits with my aesthetic. Grit/grain works for me (depending on the image of course).
 

wolverine

New member
Guy,
After you have tested the M9 and lenses, let Leica know I will gladly purchase it at a deeply discounted used price. :banghead: :ROTFL:
 

jlancasterd

Active member
Well Leica just called me . I WILL have a M9 and several lenses here Thursday for a long week end and actually put it to use on a golf tournament job on Friday. So there you go plus I will do some testing as well. Guy
Second-stage deliveries seem to be underway in UK, although supplies are still short. Yesterday I got the black one I ordered from Cambrian Photography in North Wales just before the launch :D. It was the only one they got and they have several back orders. The first delivery (pre-launch) apparently went only to London dealers in support of the opening of the new Leica Store in Mayfair, which also took place on 9/9/09.

I've loaded the latest firmware and propose to go out testing some of my Voigtlander lenses with this camera later today.
 
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