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Thread: M9 and B&W?

  1. #101
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    I am in Hong Kong presenting at a conference - and have enjoyed reading this thread. On a screen it is hard to judge what the print will look like. That being said - the easiest thing to do when one wants a B&W film 'look' -is to shoot film. personally I prefer the look of colour and B&W film for people shots and digital for everything else - ie I believe my eye prefers the less 'perfect' film emulsion look when a person is the subject matter.

    This conclusion is based on my eyes preferences - these same based on decades of looking at photography printed - I am sure that younger people will have differentexperiences and therefore different preferences.

    Too much focus on the perfection of teh digital file - which is a wonderful thing for many subject matters - can put off the eye from its traditional look preferences.

    Just my thoughts - as a rule I think most B&W conversions are just chasing dreams as far as film look goes - compared to the real thing- film.

  2. #102
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Film is just simply not a option. For me at least
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #103
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Film is just simply not a option. For me at least
    Film? Not for any paying job these days ... that's for sure.

    Just did a quick conversion of a M9 cull shot rescued from my trash bin which was shot at ISO 1250 ... it was deleted because it was under-exposed ... but I used one of the Ascough midtone lift actions and it worked pretty well considering it was a underexposed @ 1250 (I added the burned in edges). Slight crop and bigger crop to show noise level.

    Can't wait to try these on some M8 shots. Might work for the Sony A900 also. Gotta try that too.

  4. #104
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    >>You're not going to exactly simulate the tone curve of film, you can only approach it. The sensor just can't handle as many stops as film can.<<

    No, you're not and yes, it can. And because a sensor has a much different characteristic response than film, the results look different.

    That said, you can certainly make a digital print of a given scene look well-nigh identical to the same scene photographed with a given film-developer-paper-developer chain. It just takes one hell of a lot of labor.

    Dick and Silvia Zawadski have done a few interesting articles on forcing onto a file and subsequent print--their words--a curve, or set of curves matching the density relationships of an esthetically pleasing standard print. In their case, esthetically pleasing is what their Kodak colleagues concluded from years of viewing tests.

    Understandably, tastes vary across cultures and so on, so there's probably no single recipe for a pleasing full-scale print. That said, there's now nothing either in the capture range of modern sensors, processing capabilities, or printing technology that precludes almost perfect emulation of, say, Tri-X in HC110, for six minutes, printed on Galerie Grade Two and toned, lightly, in selenium.

    Yes, Harman FBAL may look a little funky if you view the print at a 120-degree angle under spotlighting. But who looks at ANY prints that way. And, jeez, the stuff even SMELLS like old Ilford FB paper.

    It takes work, though. And it also begs another question entirely: Are there other ways of using the digital medium, either in color or monochrome, unique and desirable not as an emulation of another format but unto itself?

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Let me quickly amend this:

    >>No, you're not and yes, it can.<<

    Fuzzy wording. No, a camera sensor cannot perfectly emulate the characteristic of film, but one CAN impose virtually any curve on it.. Especially because a digital sensor's curve is usually much more linear than film-- so you're starting with good local contrast in the highs, lows and middle.

  6. #106
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Two silverefx outputs - no tweaking, just into Aperture with a default curve, then SilverEFX "neutral" and "high structure" (click for full size)



    Last edited by nostatic; 24th September 2009 at 22:20.

  7. #107
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    The problem for me with this shot is the chair back fused to the girls left arm.This is such a massive "digital" flag ,incredibly unattractive and Im 99% certain could have been avoided with film.I have tried this photo myself and could find no density there and because of the blurring of this WHITENESS into the girls arm Im certain its impossible to repair well.Ive seen this on many digital photos especially in skies and it seems to be accepted but for me its a big failing of dynamic range that is peculiarly digital.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Film? Not for any paying job these days ... that's for sure.
    That's it, I'm adding you to my ignore list

    Even with the M9 here, I will continue to shoot film as that is my niche and what the type of client that hires me expects... I also love the film workflow, though.

    I am very happy you are liking Jeff's actions, like I stated before they come the closest to the real thing than anything else.

    Cheers,

  9. #109
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Tried an experiment. Processed the DNG in ACR and in C1. Got the best color image I could make in each, and then converted them in CS4 using exactly the same steps for the B/W:

    Here's the ACR conversion:


    And here's the C1 conversion:

  10. #110
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Damned pbase is still belly up

    Right, looks like Zenfolio will be winning a new customer.

    Here's my take, using Capture One 4 to get the basic tiff, and doing everything else in Lightzone.



    Quite an interesting challenge - terrible lighting conditions!

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    I prefer the C1 conversions to anything else I'm seeing -- and FTR, I DO have Silver FX loaded in CS4 and did try several recipes on this image with it...
    Jack
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Damned pbase is still belly up

    Right, looks like Zenfolio will be winning a new customer.

    Here's my take, using Capture One 4 to get the basic tiff, and doing everything else in Lightzone.



    Quite an interesting challenge - terrible lighting conditions!

    Cheers

    Brian
    No joy seeing this one.

  13. #113
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Might work for the Sony A900 also. Gotta try that too.
    That would open a whole range of options if it does...please let us know the results.

    Bob

  14. #114
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Sorry Lloyd, just getting used to Zenfolio - this one should work :



    Click on the link for the larger size.

    What do you think?

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post

    What do you think?
    My honest .02 is it looks flat compared to the C1 conversions. It needs more local and more global contrast IMO, but obviously without blowing the highlight shoulder or losing the shadow toe... The burn on the chair arm looks wrong.
    Jack
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Is there a way to get tones that would look like tri-x in rodinal with the actions from Jeff A?
    I still think film has the advantage but this progresssion is very interesting to watch and I understand that film is not an option sometimes.

    Look forward to more. Thanks for all the testing.
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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    My honest .02 is it looks flat compared to the C1 conversions. It needs more local and more global contrast IMO, but obviously without blowing the highlight shoulder or losing the shadow toe... The burn on the chair arm looks wrong.
    Thanks Jack, appreciate your feedback - I found it an interesting challenge... tried to tone down the chair after nei1 pointed out how blown it looked.

    I was quite happy that I'd gotten the balance I wanted, considering the girl in the shadow, but I'm sure it's departed quite far from the high contrast 'film look'... I really have no idea about film

    Thanks for letting me play

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Thanks Jack, appreciate your feedback - I found it an interesting challenge... tried to tone down the chair after nei1 pointed out how blown it looked.

    I was quite happy that I'd gotten the balanced I wanted, considering the girl in the shadow, but I'm sure it's departed quite far from the high contrast 'film look'... I really have no idea about film

    Thanks for letting me play

    Cheers

    Brian
    Brian:

    I think the important thing we can take away from all of our processing this same image, is that we all have different tastes on how we want a B&W to look! Which of course means there is no wrong or right answer. I am only replying as respects my tastes for reference as to why I like one version over another.

    Jack
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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    I think Black & White is highly overrated.
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:27.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    I agree , crappy image to start with. Seen more of that than I care to and I shot it. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  21. #121
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Sorry Lloyd, just getting used to Zenfolio - this one should work :



    Click on the link for the larger size.

    What do you think?

    Cheers

    Brian
    Ill try once more........ ,Brian do you really find the chair back fused to the girls arm acceptable?and what looks like a light saber lazer dividing the picture in two,am I going crazy or is this really not important to any of you.I find this digital artifact just completly unacceptable,a jarring distortion of reality.Is there a way of fixing this?or do you just have togrow to accept this sort of thing whenusing digital?

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Here is a B&W from today with the M9



    I am finding it no different than the M8 in regards to processing.
    Leica M8, M9 & Lens Reviews!
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    One more

    One more...

    Leica M8, M9 & Lens Reviews!
    http://www.stevehuffphoto.com

  24. #124
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Ill try once more........ ,Brian do you really find the chair back fused to the girls arm acceptable?and what looks like a light saber lazer dividing the picture in two,am I going crazy or is this really not important to any of you.I find this digital artifact just completly unacceptable,a jarring distortion of reality.Is there a way of fixing this?or do you just have togrow to accept this sort of thing whenusing digital?
    Hi nei1, it looks like a high contrast / blown out of focus area which is indeed rendered harshly - I tried to subdue the bright white patch, but the out of focus edges were rendered as the odd line you noticed.

    I'm not sure whether it's a characteristic of the lens or the way the sensor renders the edges of blown highlights, or a combination of both - I'd be interested in reading the experts' take on it.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by emmawest72 View Post
    Is there a way to get tones that would look like tri-x in rodinal with the actions from Jeff A?
    I still think film has the advantage but this progresssion is very interesting to watch and I understand that film is not an option sometimes.

    Look forward to more. Thanks for all the testing.

    Film not being an option is usually part and parcel of doing commercial work these days ... like Guy's work ... and most any commercial gig I get. Even if I wanted to shoot film, no one will pay the scanning fees any more, and most certainly aren't willing to change their production time line to accommodate that extra step.

    Some personal work is another matter.

    Digital color conversion to B&W has most certainly come a long way, and to answer your question NO there isn't an Ascough Tri-X in Rodinal choice ... but there is a B&W ISO 400 film, 400 film with diffusion, and ISO 800 film choice ... then a bunch of different enhancements to simulate enlarger effects ... like diffused grain more, or condenser grain & condenser grain more.

    I'm just new to these actions and am playing as I go. I just shot a wedding where the client showed up 1 hour late and we lost our light, so I'll really be pushing these M9 films around like a bully in a schoolyard.

    -Marc

  26. #126
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Brian,glad you find it a little offputting too,Im sure one of the many photoshop wizards here will correct this in a second.After all this is a brand new 7000$ camera. GUY and JACK,..the ball is in your court,..Im 99.9% sure that film would not have blown this highlight to infinity as this sensor has done.If there is a way round this it would be nice to see.Ive often thought that a direct comparison with film would give a good baseline reference point to really see how good the new technology is,but its seldom done,...just one digital camera against another.
    Last edited by nei1; 26th September 2009 at 13:31.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Steve - those are great shots. I especially like the 2nd one. The find detail and signature Leica smoothness... very nice!
    Mike Hatam
    Sony A99, RX1, RX100

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    .Im 99.9% sure that film would not have blown this highlight to infinity as this sensor has done.
    Maybe not. I think if you want to do good digital B&W, it is my opinion you need to start with a properly exposed file first and especially one with no seriously clipped highlights that may be distracting.
    Jack
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Ill try once more........ ,Brian do you really find the chair back fused to the girls arm acceptable?and what looks like a light saber lazer dividing the picture in two,am I going crazy or is this really not important to any of you.
    Well... poorly exposed image, for sure, but I find much more interesting things about these two women than the arm against the chair. Just sayin'...

  30. #130
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    fotografz wrote

    "I just shot a wedding where the client showed up 1 hour late and we lost our light, so I'll really be pushing these M9 films around like a bully in a schoolyard."

    well isn't that what you were paid for... getting the photograph?. Don't blame the client or the light

    peace
    K

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    fotografz wrote

    well isn't that what you were paid for... getting the photograph?. Don't blame the client or the light

    peace
    K
    Thanks for the tip.

    Wasn't blaming the client or light ... just mentioning it because it's a chance to see how the M9 works under difficult conditions.

    Got the shots.

    Always get the shots.

    But again, thanks for the tip, even if it was sort of uncalled for.


    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 26th September 2009 at 17:46.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks for the tip.

    Wasn't blaming the client or light ... just mentioning it because it's a chance to see how the M9 works under difficult conditions.

    Got the shots.

    Always get the shots.

    But again, thanks for the tip, even if it was sort of uncalled for.


    -Marc
    Didn't enjoy that one, eh Marc.

    Not to worry... you always get the shots... even the last (or parting) shot, in this case.

    Hey. How about doing some side-by-side comparisons of the D3X and the M9? Love to see comparisons of the DR and IQ from someone who's work we know and admire.

    Thanks in advance.

  33. #133
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Didn't enjoy that one, eh Marc.

    Not to worry... you always get the shots... even the last (or parting) shot, in this case.

    Hey. How about doing some side-by-side comparisons of the D3X and the M9? Love to see comparisons of the DR and IQ from someone who's work we know and admire.

    Thanks in advance.
    Thanks, will do.

    I shot with both the M9, Sony A900 and D3X at the reception for this wedding job.

    But I don't know how fair of a comparison it would be ... most all of the M9 shots were available light, where all of the DSLR shots were with flash.

    I have a SF58 flash coming for next week's wedding to see if I can use the M9 for some of the really dark conditions. A little fill sometimes makes the difference even with a M.

    - Marc

  34. #134
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Brian,glad you find it a little offputting too,Im sure one of the many photoshop wizards here will correct this in a second.After all this is a brand new 7000$ camera. GUY and JACK,..the ball is in your court,..Im 99.9% sure that film would not have blown this highlight to infinity as this sensor has done.If there is a way round this it would be nice to see.Ive often thought that a direct comparison with film would give a good baseline reference point to really see how good the new technology is,but its seldom done,...just one digital camera against another.
    Film would have blown that chair arm also. Major issue is it is reflecting back at the camera with full reflection. If I was right or left a little the reflection would have been less. Also I can bring it under 255 pretty easy with clipping but there is not detail in it anyway. Just a smooth glossy chair. So in reality it has two negatives going against it right out of the gate . Even the MF system would most likely not capture that correctly. Basically a spectral highlight with no real detail in it

    If you look at it very closely the very very top left is the top of the chair and it is in another direction so it is not reflecting the light and it is a little better tone. The light is coming from the right and if you shot a bullet into the chair from the sun angle to the angle of the chair it would reflect right in the camera. The angle of reflectance equals the angle of incidence. I think I said that correct. Only thing to save it is angle the chair differently.

    This happens a lot when in the studio shooting product and I shot a lot of art glass in my day and this issue is a real bitch to deal with. Seriously I would call that part of the image a bad sample for a comparison with film but I agree sometimes film does have a better tone. For a lot of us it is a forgotten art per say but I am glad i grew up in that age because i learned so much about the process of it and i am afraid in general the younger generation has no clue of those processes that actually taught you about highlights, shadows and tone. That is just a gut feeling.
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  35. #135
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    I'd have no problem with a totally white highlight, but the transitions are where digital can sometimes fall down... the outline of the chair leg also seems like a monotone... a bit like it was painted in a pixel editor?

    Do you think that would have looked the same with film?

    I wouldn't want to blow this out of proportion, but highlight transitions are obviously of huge interest with any camera system.

    Thanks Guy

    Brian

  36. #136
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Guy thanks for the reply,I see your point about the reflection and it seems that b&w conversion has exasberated the problem,(naively could those highlights be masked before the conversion)but it remains a problem with dynamic range from digital cameras.What is certain is that its a lot uglier than it would have been with film.

    Ive noticed that the foveon sensor favours the rendition of highlights at the expense of shadow detail,As the "volume"of a sensor can be turned up to give more sensitivity its presumably impossible to move its dynamic range up and down in a similar way,for different situations.

    It would have been intersting to compare this with film,...not to wave any flags,just to give an aging filmite like me an easy reference point,thanks for your time..Neil.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    IMV, a shot taken in that light with film or digital or any format would produce exactly the same results.

    Light and not the medium or the various processing discussed is the problem.

    Had that shot been taken under less harsh light, this film vs digital discussion would not have taken place.

    Does anyone remember trying Agfa APX-100 under similar condition? Would have been far worse.

  38. #138
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Guy thanks for the reply,I see your point about the reflection and it seems that b&w conversion has exasberated the problem,(naively could those highlights be masked before the conversion)but it remains a problem with dynamic range from digital cameras.What is certain is that its a lot uglier than it would have been with film.

    Ive noticed that the foveon sensor favours the rendition of highlights at the expense of shadow detail,As the "volume"of a sensor can be turned up to give more sensitivity its presumably impossible to move its dynamic range up and down in a similar way,for different situations.

    It would have been intersting to compare this with film,...not to wave any flags,just to give an aging filmite like me an easy reference point,thanks for your time..Neil.
    I'm a film-aholic also Neil, that's why I was pushing for B&W conversion ideas for the M9.

    What I do with B&W digital to overcome the DR limit is to initially process the RAW file semi-flat in tone to maintain the brights, then select the brights in Photoshop, feather them, and place them on a layer to protect them when manipulating the base layer. Then I can add the levels of contrast to the base layer with affecting the brights. When finished, I can adjust the Brights layer opacity to blend with the base layer.

    This is a really, really fast technique that works so well I've had numerous inquiries on how I manage to keep such faithful detail in a bride's dress while the remaining image is high contrast with detail in the shadow areas.

    -Marc

  39. #139
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    At least in my mind, the true beauty and power of film is best portrayed when actually printed in a darkroom instead of digitizing the neg through scanning. I think it's worth mentioning that had the shot been taken on film with the same specular highlight present, the only option in a traditional analog work flow would be to try and manipulate the highlights and shadows of the print by dodging and burning (and/or some other more arcane printing technique).

    At that point, the success of the print to capture whatever nuance that film might have allowed would depend almost entirely on the skill of the guy standing in front of the enlarger. A very tricky and time consuming feat to pull off, even for an expert.

    In the end what this shot needed was simply a half-step to the left. (No offense Guy, I can understand 100% why you might have been distracted.)

  40. #140
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm a film-aholic also Neil, that's why I was pushing for B&W conversion ideas for the M9.

    What I do with B&W digital to overcome the DR limit is to initially process the RAW file semi-flat in tone to maintain the brights, then select the brights in Photoshop, feather them, and place them on a layer to protect them when manipulating the base layer. Then I can add the levels of contrast to the base layer with affecting the brights. When finished, I can adjust the Brights layer opacity to blend with the base layer.

    This is a really, really fast technique that works so well I've had numerous inquiries on how I manage to keep such faithful detail in a bride's dress while the remaining image is high contrast with detail in the shadow areas.

    -Marc
    Marc

    Since I know you are a fan of LR as well.....have you tried to accomplish this with the Local Area adjustments? I have generally found that I can create a mask on any part of the image with the brush...and then adjust with the LAA sliders to taste.

    It seems to have the same effect but maybe I don t know what to look for in the file.

  41. #141
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    At least in my mind, the true beauty and power of film is best portrayed when actually printed in a darkroom instead of digitizing the neg through scanning. I think it's worth mentioning that had the shot been taken on film with the same specular highlight present, the only option in a traditional analog work flow would be to try and manipulate the highlights and shadows of the print by dodging and burning (and/or some other more arcane printing technique).

    At that point, the success of the print to capture whatever nuance that film might have allowed would depend almost entirely on the skill of the guy standing in front of the enlarger. A very tricky and time consuming feat to pull off, even for an expert.

    In the end what this shot needed was simply a half-step to the left. (No offense Guy, I can understand 100% why you might have been distracted.)

    None taken basically was just processed and nothing done to it but yes a little burning might help it. This image falls squarely into my ugly testing bin. LOL

    Which is something I love to do is shoot in the worst conditions and see how things hold up. This qualifies.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  42. #142
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This image falls squarely into my ugly testing bin.
    You didn't mention that to the talent while you were shooting that they were going right into the ugly bin - did you?

  43. #143
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    No not at all. LOL

    I have a second part to that answer but I am refraining from mentioning it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  44. #144
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Guy, I think your test served more than its intended purpose. Thanks for reporting.

    It is unfortunate that one image got dragged into film vs digital (again ) discussion.

    Just how many stops is print paper (darkroom) capable of showing?

    It is either that or the scanner's DR that would determine the usefulness of film.

    Projection (slides and movies) are a different matter but I guess the discussion has not alluded to that w.r.t. film.

  45. #145
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Thanks but that is what this forum is about and discussing even one image is great. There will always be the film vs digital comparisons. One will never be like the other but certainly you can get very close with good technique. For folks that want to get close to film than learning this stuff and knowing what limits there are is good to know.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What I do with B&W digital to overcome the DR limit is to initially process the RAW file semi-flat in tone to maintain the brights, then select the brights in Photoshop, feather them, and place them on a layer to protect them when manipulating the base layer. Then I can add the levels of contrast to the base layer with affecting the brights. When finished, I can adjust the Brights layer opacity to blend with the base layer.

    This is a really, really fast technique that works so well I've had numerous inquiries on how I manage to keep such faithful detail in a bride's dress while the remaining image is high contrast with detail in the shadow areas.
    curious as you mentioned that you beta-tested Jeff's actions.... his first package include a Highlight Paramedic that has worked brilliantly when i thought i ****ed up. actually, honestly, it was probably my bad, but i've always been surprised at what details in the highlights can be recovered without the expense of the other details going south.

  47. #147
    colin
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    First post here. Thanks for making the DNG available for play. Here's my go with assistance from Alien Skin Exposure:

  48. #148
    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    guys original is better than that, what did you do? maybe its my laptop monitor. looks muddy to me.
    Last edited by mwalker; 27th September 2009 at 15:08.
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  49. #149
    nei1
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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Colin, mwalker is not critisising your attempt but mine that I removed not thinking how it would look.
    Mike ,Iagree,but as an excuse Im only trying to get some detail in the areas that worry me.Others will do a better job but it seems by lowering the contrast and toning the image in raw then adding grain with dxo film plug in ,something can be done.Honestly have little idea what Im doing and maybe have degraded the image with what Ive done,thanks..Neil.

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    Re: M9 and B&W?

    Looks to me that you do have an idea, Neil.

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