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Thread: Petition for an R10

  1. #1
    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Petition for an R10



    I have a heavy investment in R glass, including for instance the 35-70/2.8 Vario Elmarit. For the time being, and before resolving to go the Leotax path, I use the R lenses on the G1.

    It would not look too difficult nor extremely expensive to build (perhaps by Panasonic) a full-format G1 with the M9 sensor. No need of AF nor IS for the base model, just be able to use existing lenses manually. If it does well, later add AF and IS and compatible lenses that would open a new lens market for Leica.

    Sign this petition. If it will not achieve anything, at least we tried our best

    Cheers
    Peter
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

  2. #2
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    It would be interesting to know the facts regarding the break even on a R10. I suspect that most R users both current and previous would be interested in an R10 even if it was only a manual mount .

    Based on the response to the M9 ..where many long time Leica M users are saying....OK this is a digital M I can get behind . The orders for the M9 todate indicate it will far exceed the demand for the M8.

    Using my R glass on either Nikon or Canon bodies shows that its not an major engineering feat to produce an R body for manual focus lenses. They could focus on all the stuff Leica owners miss like Higher ISO ,weather sealing,stupid pop up flash or they could stick will CCD and go for better color etc.

    Maybe someday ?

  3. #3
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    I agree,
    putting a ff sensor in a R9 is all which would be needed to satisfy people with existing R-glass. Its shouldnt be difficult/expensive to do so and I am sure it would generate cash quickly for Leica. Forget IS and AF.

  4. #4
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Well, I would certain sign such a petition; it won't get an R10, but it will let Laica know there is a ready market for an "R" compatible camera.

    I have a Sigma 14 with R mount, a Kodak SLR/c and an R9/DMR. Except for the last they are ok, but unsatisfying (waiting for the call from the Smithsonian to send the first two, maybe all three

    Then again there is always the Canon adapter method.

    What I think is more likely is a 4/3 camera with 18MP and I hope body stabilized, that would take R lenses (well, R to 4/3 already exists)

    So I think we just need to make sure a good LEICA influenced system emerges.

    There have been hints that Leica will 'do something' for the R people, and I think that it will happen.

    You heard it here.

    If not, a 30MP FF 3200 ISO Canon 1DsIV would work too.

    Needless to say, I still have my 20+ R lenses.

    Regards
    Victor

    PS I recently got a "True Wide" with R mount. I used both P45+ and P65+ The latter vignettes, but with that setup I have a 40MP system with 16 bit depth and lenses from 15/2.8 to 2000mm, all Leica.

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    It would not look too difficult nor extremely expensive to build (perhaps by Panasonic) a full-format G1 with the M9 sensor.
    You would actually not want the m9 sensor on an SLR.. you would do better to have a sensor akin to the other manufacturer's Full Frame SLR sensors (5D Mark II, Nikon D700, Sony A900, etc). The m9 sensor is designed to be combined with rangefinder glass with offset microlenses that have a short backfocus because of the lack of a mirror.

    This is a pretty crowded space though.. Leica would definitely have to bring something interesting to the table if they got back into SLRs.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Just added my name to the petition. I really hope Leica is listening.

    Gary
    R8 with motordrive, 28mm Elmarit, 50mm Summicron, 90mm Elmarit, 80-200mm f4 Vario-Elmar

  7. #7
    Senior Member Per Ofverbeck's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by cookedart View Post
    .....
    This is a pretty crowded space though.. Leica would definitely have to bring something interesting to the table if they got back into SLRs.
    They already HAVE something interesting: R lenses....

  8. #8
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    My name is on the petition but I'm not holding my breath.

  9. #9
    gdwhalen
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Who would trust Leica now???

  10. #10
    Member Seascape's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    My superb R lenses looks pretty ordinary on a Canon DSLR (most recent attempt on a 1D MK II), they are no where close to the results I get from my M8 even with non ASPH lenses.

    I need something better than these work arounds, it is truly frustrating having fabulous R glass and no way other than the huge R8/DMR kit, to use it.

    The M9 came out of left field.........surprise me please !!!

  11. #11
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Having used R lenses across a wide range of Canon dSLRs, the 1D2 doesn't have much drama when it comes to image quality. By drama I mean color depth, richness, saturation, etc. Recently I've been re-editing some 1Ds and 1Ds2 raws, and after using the 1Ds3 for about 2 years, the old 1Ds files simply can't match the 1Ds3's color depth / richness. If you could rent a 1Ds3 for a weekend from a local shop, it might be worth your time to try again. I realize this isn't the ideal solution - certainly not in this thread. However, I would not use the 1D2 as a benchmark when it comes file / image quality. And since not everyone is fond of Canon, via Leitex some R lenses can also be used on Nikon & Sony dSLRs.

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    OK, I know that I argument for the R10 all the time - personally I would not buy one anyways and have sold all my R-gear.
    There have been a couple of experiences which make me believe that the difference in glass between Leica and other brands has shrinked quite a bit.
    Why do I think so?

    Once I compared a Leica 80-200/4.0 vs a Canon 80-200/4.0L on a Canon 5D - Frankly I could not detect much difference if any besides the fact that I would get more slightly out of focus images when using MF.

    The other time I put a Leica M lens on a g1 and compared it to the kit lens. Again - I was not blown away buy a big difference (as Iwould have expected in the first step).

    Third I changed a Leica 100 Macro into Nikon mount. Again I was not blown aways-even though this is a very very good lens.

    In all three cases I did not feel it is worth to give up AF, to have to use step down metering, and to give up exact exposure metering (the Leica on the Nikon doesn not meter as precise as Nikon lenses do).

    Just yesterday I brought my M9 +50asph and D3x+Sigma 50/1.4
    No, not scientific but real life. Shot about 5 different scenes including landscape and portrait with both cameras and I admit I was surprized how good the Nikon with the Sigma lens holds up to the M9 with the 50asph.

    My conclusion from this was that for my personal use it seems both the M9 with Leica glass and the d3x with very good glass is so close in IQ that it doesnt make any difference for me personally. (Which is great since I can just use the camera which fits the needs regarding handling)

    So I change my mind and say- a R10 would be great for those who own R-glass or like just manual focus. But IMO it doesnt make much sense to use Leica lenses on a Canon AF camera.
    Just my opinion.

  13. #13
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by petermcwerner View Post
    (...) It would not look too difficult nor extremely expensive to build (perhaps by Panasonic) a full-format G1 with the M9 sensor. (...)
    But in that case it should be priced like a G1 with a full frame sensor.
    I cannot sign a petition saying: "I am interested by a solution of this type, whose price will not have to be significantly higher than that of M9."
    If you had said "whose price will not have to be higher than that of an A850" I would have signed the petition.
    I still do have four R lenses, but in my opinion a non-competitive solution is irrelevant. Just my 2 cents of course.

  14. #14
    Member Seascape's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    John B. the reason I tried the 1D II, was because of the 1.3 crop that should have provided sufficient clearance for lenses such as my 35 Lux, that seem to have mirror clearance problems with the 5D for example.

    However, the IQ was somewhat disappointing, I assume it is the CMOS sensor vs the CCD look, but not sure......bottom line I need something better to make the R lenses sing.

  15. #15
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    actually thought of another approach. If the M9 (maybe in M10?) had LIVE PREVIEW, you could easily focus the R lenses, and there currently adapters.

    also, Leica could design a 'fractional magnification' lens for the S2 that would extend the registry distance (the 1.4x extenders do that already; optically not a challenging design. Then focus confirm would work and the image circle of the R I know fills a P45+ ALREADY ABOUT THE s2 SIZE.

    Leica has many choices for R lenses but all would reduce sales of the current and emerging lines

    Business is business

    Victor

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    actually thought of another approach. If the M9 (maybe in M10?) had LIVE PREVIEW, you could easily focus the R lenses, and there currently adapters.


    Well said!

    If the X1 can have liveview....

  17. #17
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    also, Leica could design a 'fractional magnification' lens for the S2 that would extend the registry distance (the 1.4x extenders do that already; optically not a challenging design.
    If this hypothetical extender were something like a 1.25x magnifier the angle of view would be the same as on a 24mm x 36mm camera. Possible loss of some lens sales, but it would give the S2 an installed base of lenses... and I don't see plans yet for any S lenses longer than the 350mm APO-Elmar. Imagine a modular APO-Telyt on the S2

  18. #18
    Senior Member petermcwerner's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If the X1 can have liveview....
    and a 24*36mm sensor and a good viewfinder... Otherwise it would not be much of an improvement over the G1
    Peter Werner
    Leica M8, R9+DMR & Digilux 2; Nikon D700; Panasonic FX01, FX150 & G1; Samsung TL350 (WB 2000)

  19. #19
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Peter, Even the APS-C D300 beats the G1 hands down in terms of image quality (DR and S/R).

    I am sure the current Pentax Kx and Sony A500 also would be many times better than the G1.

  20. #20
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Acually considering the Sony A900 with Leitax adapter for the R Modulars. With stabilization would be a great wildlife setup IF the IQ from the A900 is reasonable (let's face it, captures, Execpt for Doug's , are usually dictated by other factors like light and shake and aperture)

    Victor

  21. #21
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Live preview on a M9 is not possible as it uses CCD sensor. My understanding is live preview requires CMOS. I don't think Leica will alter the hot selling M9 just to please some former R users who want to use their R lenses. But what I don't understand is why Leica wouldn't either license out the R mount or contract for the manufacture of a camera with an R mount. The reasons appear to be commercial and not technical. Leica has a relatiionship with Panasonic but it may not be so good after the X1. Panasonic also does not produce a FF sensor. There are three manufacturers doing FF -- Canon, Nikon and Sony. If there is a relationship with Panasonic, Leica cannot also have one with Sony as Sony and Panasonic are bitter rivals. And I don't see either Nikon or Canon helping Leica to sell cameras that would allow R glass to be used. Why wouldn't they each prefer to sell their own glass? That leaves as a solution, licensing out the rights to the R mount to someone like Cosina, and having them build a SLR around the mount. Whether it would be FF or not would depend on the cost and availability of sensors from third parties. I don't think anyone ought to hold their breath.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    So I change my mind and say- a R10 would be great for those who own R-glass or like just manual focus.
    That's exactly why I would be interested in an R10. I enjoy manual focus, have a few R-glass lenses and if they came out with an R10 that had IQ and build quality comparable to the better Canon, Nikon or Sony DSLRs, that would be good enough for me. It doesn't have to be light years better....just comparable IQ at a roughly comparable cost. I don't know how many 35mm shooters would even consider a system that didn't have autofocus anymore....but I'll bet there are still alot of Leica R owners who would go for it.

    Gary

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    If an R10 were to come out, it would almost certainly support new AF lenses, as well as the old. I think Leica simply doesn't have the R&D+production capacity for such a camera right now, at the low expected volumes it would bring in.
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ... at the low expected volumes it would bring in.
    I'm not so sure that this is a given. I believe it is rather price sensitive.

    Leicas strength is the optics.
    If only Leica would start to be competitive pricewise and make affordable cameras with a partner, I still think they could win a substantial market share.

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    I agree with your "if", but don't think that Leica can bring the prices down, given the operating tolerances, processes used, and so on. Not every process is amenable to high production levels. What we would probably get if Leica tried would be something like the Zeiss ZM, ZF, etc. lenses.
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What we would probably get if Leica tried would be something like the Zeiss ZM, ZF, etc. lenses.
    This is not such a bad thing I have a 25mm biogon ZM that is very nicely made (without some of the reassuring heft of my brass chrome lenses though). Their finders and optical performance cannot be questioned.

  27. #27
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    What we would probably get if Leica tried would be something like the Zeiss ZM, ZF, etc. lenses.

    Hey, I would be mounting Soviet lenses on them- if- (not gonna happen) Leica would make such cameras.

  28. #28
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by weinschela View Post
    Live preview on a M9 is not possible as it uses CCD sensor. My understanding is live preview requires CMOS. I don't think Leica will alter the hot selling M9 just to please some former R users who want to use their R lenses. But what I don't understand is why Leica wouldn't either license out the R mount or contract for the manufacture of a camera with an R mount. The reasons appear to be commercial and not technical. Leica has a relatiionship with Panasonic but it may not be so good after the X1. Panasonic also does not produce a FF sensor. There are three manufacturers doing FF -- Canon, Nikon and Sony. If there is a relationship with Panasonic, Leica cannot also have one with Sony as Sony and Panasonic are bitter rivals. And I don't see either Nikon or Canon helping Leica to sell cameras that would allow R glass to be used. Why wouldn't they each prefer to sell their own glass? That leaves as a solution, licensing out the rights to the R mount to someone like Cosina, and having them build a SLR around the mount. Whether it would be FF or not would depend on the cost and availability of sensors from third parties. I don't think anyone ought to hold their breath.
    Not true; the P65+ is a CCD sensor (Dalsa) and has it. The P45+ had it as well and was a Kodak.

    If Leica can solve FF on a RF camera (when no one thought ANY digital was possible) they can certainly solve this.

    Victor

    PS But I still like an optical solution for the S2 best. There is ALSO the possibility that the adapter for an S2 could be AF!
    Yes, focal legnth correction but with a range, so you set the approximate distancea and the AF adapter does the rest. This was how some of the Zeiss lenses worked, with TWO focus rings. The back lens/group always does the final focus. The adapter would link to the AF of thje S2 as a S2 lens. It would just have, say an R modular in front of it! :-)

    This is a REAL possibility. Leica, are you listening? (BTW, I am a physicist, so I know it is theoretically possible. I am not an engineer, so I am not sure it wouldn't cost $50,000! LOL

    ..and then of course, there is the "Visoflex2" solution. With less room the mirror would not be FF, but hell, I'll take center focus! (say half size since there is only about 1/2 in for the M>R registry.

    Naaaa... the S2 adapting, autofocusing lens is the best solution.

    Leica, get with it. I will ask only a small royalty as I own the patent on this.

    Oh and while you are at it, add body stabilization for ALL lenses in the S2 Mark II...
    Last edited by gogopix; 5th November 2009 at 08:37.

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Not true; the P65+ is a CCD sensor (Dalsa) and has it. The P45+ had it as well and was a Kodak.
    Yup. FujiS3UVIR had liveview as well.

    Off the sensor metering should also possible. A matter of power management and matching electronics.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    To keep the enthusiam up.....I think we need a proper mock-up of the R10 to drool over. This one was provided some time ago here at GetDPI, courtesy of Fotografz. It's pinned up on my cube wall here in the office.

    Gary


  31. #31
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Sigh. What I wouldn't give...
    Carsten - Website

  32. #32
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Sigh. What I wouldn't give...
    Me too.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    She's a bonnie lassie
    Last edited by Steen; 6th November 2009 at 11:56.

  34. #34
    robertparker
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    I would love to see a R10 or other camera which was the size of an R6 with around 18mp full frame. I have a large selection of R lenses because I love the quality of construction generally small form factor and image quality. I accept that Canon and Nikon produce some excellent lenses but I sold all my Canon kit even though my 135 f2 appeared sharper than my 100 2.8 apo and though great for pixel peeping I couldn't live with the lack of subtle colour variations in a scene. This was the same for the Canon 85 1.8 and generally disappointed. The Leica lenses on my 1ds Mk11 transformed the images but to see the differences you have to print. For Nikon had a D3 and was amazed at the abilities of the camera but the pictures didn't do it for me.So totally understand the cameras appeal from a professional standpoint but as a hobbyist love the interaction with manual lenses and having a camera that doesn't shout professional so sold my DMR and love my M8 but looking forward to a Leica R solution in a smaller form factor than the DMR to compliment my M8. So would be happy to sign a petition for an R10.

    With kind regards to all and a Happy New year
    Robert

    Leica R 19 2.8, 28 2.8 35 2, 35 1.4, 50 1.4, 80 1.4, 90 2 apo, 100 2.8 apo, 180 2.8 apo, 280 4 apo, 105-280, R 6.2 and Leica M8 system, Hasselblad H3d 22 system and panasonic GF1

  35. #35
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Might have better luck getting a date with a Victoria secret model. AIN'T gonna happen.

    And I'm a dead in the wool optimist
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Not true; the P65+ is a CCD sensor (Dalsa) and has it. The P45+ had it as well and was a Kodak.
    BUT: MF-backs have a very different live-view, as I understand - you get a frame rate around 1fps (simply the speed of normal picture read out). That will be OK for a studio setup to do manual focus for table top - but it's far away from the 25+ fps we see on 35mm-live view (and you will definitely need that speed for an AF-system based on the sensor...). So there IS a difference between CCD and CMOS at this point.

    Andreas

  37. #37
    robertparker
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    If Leica is not going to produce an R10 then is there a company that can alter the forth coming Canon 1ds mk1v or Nikon D3X to have a Leica R mount rather than using lens adapters and can operate without stop down. I'm in the market but would prefer the possible Nikon 700x or Sony 900 without the current anti aliasing filter for camera size.There has to be a possibility for what must be the best slr lenses ever produced.

    With kind regards

    Robert

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    If Leica had to come with a R10 it should have been done years ago.... they didn't .... and I believe they never will.
    Anyway if it is to propose a 7000+$ just to fix my R glasses, forget it !
    I carry on using my Leica film gear , M & R, and will probably never get digital with Leica.
    I could understand the prices when the cameras were "all mechanical", but for electronics it has to be priced 1/3rd of it to start to think about it as a possibility.
    People, and I am in, want no hassle easy to carry light with comprehensive possibilities. That the reason the Olympus and Pana are selling well , so well in fact that many have their DSLR sleeping on the shelf. This is a new handling shift which is getting very important when choosing.
    In that respect the M9 is still in the game but they should realise that quickly and propose a new system, call it R if you want, some sort of FF pana GF1 using M glasses.
    That would be a winner and Pana can help them.

  39. #39
    iopet
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    i'm also looking forward to a r10 too, hate the size of eos 5d mark2

  40. #40
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by iopet View Post
    i'm also looking forward to a r10 too, hate the size of eos 5d mark2
    I doubt an R10 would be any smaller.

    I had an R8 and it was only a little smaller than the 5D Mark II.

  41. #41
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Might have better luck getting a date with a Victoria secret model. AIN'T gonna happen.

    And I'm a dead in the wool optimist
    "Dead in the Wool"?

    I just saw this and spit coffee all over my monitor

    Someone has to start collecting these malapropisms ... they are absolutely priceless.

    Highly visual people seem prone to this twisting of common sayings. I once worked with a brilliant Art Director who rivaled Guy in this mal a' propos art form. One of my favorites from him was made during a major presentation of a TV commercial to executives of the Ford Motor Company ...

    " Gentlemen, what we have here is a spine boggling idea!"

    It brought down the house.

    -Marc

    P.S., Guy is free to appropriate it at any time.

  42. #42
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Nice thread - but just daydreaming

  43. #43
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Re malaprops: Guy is the Yogi Berra of photography. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra)

    My favorite is "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

  44. #44
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Re malaprops: Guy is the Yogi Berra of photography. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra)

    My favorite is "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

    Loved Yogi. All time one of my favorite baseball players.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  45. #45
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Dead in the Wool"?

    I just saw this and spit coffee all over my monitor

    Someone has to start collecting these malapropisms ... they are absolutely priceless.

    Highly visual people seem prone to this twisting of common sayings. I once worked with a brilliant Art Director who rivaled Guy in this mal a' propos art form. One of my favorites from him was made during a major presentation of a TV commercial to executives of the Ford Motor Company ...

    " Gentlemen, what we have here is a spine boggling idea!"

    It brought down the house.



    -Marc

    P.S., Guy is free to appropriate it at any time.

    Guess who I am http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_and_Costello

    Just trying to give you a laugh Marc. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Petition for an R10

    [QUOTE=t_streng;...... But IMO it doesnt make much sense to use Leica lenses on a Canon AF camera.
    Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

    It does for someone like me, I have R lenses I want to use instead of buying another range of lenses.
    I would be set with just a camera.

    Now I won't sign this petition because it's going to be as efficient as pissing into a violin. Leica propose irrealistic priced products and a R10 would be no different.... so what could be the interest unless you print money ?

    What has always puzzled me is nobody has ever produce a camera with Canon Nikon or Leica R mounts, I guess they have fallen in the public arena by now. They wouldn't need to worry about lenses, just concentrate on making the body the best they could at the right price.

    Michel

  47. #47
    K3N
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by sinwen View Post
    What has always puzzled me is nobody has ever produce a camera with Canon Nikon or Leica R mounts, I guess they have fallen in the public arena by now. They wouldn't need to worry about lenses, just concentrate on making the body the best they could at the right price.

    Michel
    Red camera is trying to do that. Still waiting for them to bring their camera to market.

  48. #48
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by K3N View Post
    Red camera is trying to do that. Still waiting for them to bring their camera to market.
    Are the chances of this happening any better than for Silicon Film?

  49. #49
    K3N
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    Re: Petition for an R10

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Are the chances of this happening any better than for Silicon Film?
    Doug,
    I think the RED camera will be available eventually.

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