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Thread: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

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    X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    MR on LuLa has a production model X1 for evaluation. He expects to publish his review next week.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/whatsnew/

    I am looking forward to this review and others on the X1. I was impressed with the X1 when I tried it at PhotoPlus. If the image quality and ISO performance is as good as I expect, then I will be getting one.

    FWIW, I do think its overpriced, but Leica is in a unique position with the X1. If you want a pocketable APS-C camera with a great lens, then its the only option out there - pay the price or do without.

    Mark

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    FWIW, I do think its overpriced, but Leica is in a unique position with the X1. If you want a pocketable APS-C camera with a great lens, then its the only option out there - pay the price or do without.
    unless Ricoh beats them to it... which, personally, i'm hoping for.

    as cute/sexy as the X1 is, it is too pricey for a lens that slow, IMO. even more so as i am not a fan of the Elmarit's draw, much preferring the Lux and the Cron.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    HI Mark
    Thank you for that
    Cam - I hope you're well. Is there any likelihood of Ricoh doing something? If so, then it's a definite 'wait for'

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    I am not eager to pay what I think is too much for the X1. I hope there is something too the Ricoh and there is an announcement of specs, price, and availability soon. I have been wanting a camera like the X1 for years and don't want to wait much longer for it. if the Leica is good and available then I will pay the price now rather than wait another several months for something else to materialize.

    I had the Leica 28mm Elmarit ASPH for my M8 and really liked the images it produced. I sold it to buy the 28 Cron but I am not sure I like the Cron that much better other than the extra stop. So I have high hopes for the 24 Elmarit ASPH in the X1.

    Jono, perhaps you can persuade Leica to give you an X1 for review. I enjoyed your M9 review and photographs.

    Mark

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I am not eager to pay what I think is too much for the X1. I hope there is something too the Ricoh and there is an announcement of specs, price, and availability soon. I have been wanting a camera like the X1 for years and don't want to wait much longer for it. if the Leica is good and available then I will pay the price now rather than wait another several months for something else to materialize.
    I don't mind the speed of the lens . .. but 35mm isn't really my favorite, but I am tempted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I had the Leica 28mm Elmarit ASPH for my M8 and really liked the images it produced. I sold it to buy the 28 Cron but I am not sure I like the Cron that much better other than the extra stop. So I have high hopes for the 24 Elmarit ASPH in the X1.
    I did exactly the same thing (swapped the elmarit for the 'cron). I do really like the cron, but I'm not sure that it was a good way to spend a grand!

    If the X1 lens is good I'm going to find it hard to resist!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Jono, perhaps you can persuade Leica to give you an X1 for review. I enjoyed your M9 review and photographs.

    Mark
    Thank you - I wish! It would be fun to have one to play with for a month or so, but I don't think it's going to happen.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    unless Ricoh beats them to it... which, personally, i'm hoping for.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    i know i am totally politically incorrect, but the micro 4/3 cams aren't doing it for me... i,too, am looking forward to the APS-C sensor size, Mark.

    and mea culpa, Jono, for making you waste that grand -- but i still much prefer the Cron. just as, frankly, i prefer the look of the old Nocti to the new -- it all comes down to taste and i am obviously more interested in character than perfection. i also look for a draw that works best for black and white (and, yes, Neil, i PP from RAW -- another mea culpa).

    i also really really like to shoot fast lenses wide-open. for low-light obviously, but also for the look. is this what i want in a smaller camera? is this how i'll use it? i don't honestly know... i do know that i resent the price-point of the X1 without having that option.

    Ricoh supposedly has an announcement next week and i am waiting with bated breath. for usability, i do love Ricohs. as for what the actual camera will be, i've seen rumours of just about everything under the sun. the only constant is the APS-C sensor with interchangeable lenses. what those are and how it works, i have no clue. and, whilst i am not claiming that Ricoh lenses are better than Leica M's, i have been very content with those in the GRD's.

    if Ricoh can come up with the goods for less money, interchangeable lenses, and excellent usability, then, well, i don't really need the red dot.

    i am eagerly looking forward to both sets of reviews coming out because never say never. i just know that while the X1 had sex appeal, i was less than impressed with the few seconds i had it in my hands. not that it really counts -- it was a pre-production model so the slow/bad focusing and funky metering i'm sure will be evened out.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    I handled an X1 at the Photo Plus Expo several weeks ago. No pictures allowed since it was obviously a prototype with early firmware.

    First impression - very light, and small. Didn't appear to be typically Leica in weight, and feel. I rather liked the analog dial controls, and pop up hemispherical flash.

    Completely subjective opinion - could it be worth $2K????

    I need to see some results.


    Martin

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    If the X-1 had a 35mm Lux ASPH lens, then I think it would be a very popular camera. $2k for F2.8 just doesn't do it for me. The Ricoh could be interesting - especially if it has a built-in viewfinder of decent performance/size. I read somewhere that the lenses may be from Pentax. That's a rumor, nothing more.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    HI Cam

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    i know i am totally politically incorrect, but the micro 4/3 cams aren't doing it for me... i,too, am looking forward to the APS-C sensor size, Mark.
    They aren't doing it for me either (even though I really want to like them). But I don't think for a moment that APS-c is going to be an improvement . . the difference in sensor size compared to the little sensors of the D-lux 4 and GRD is insignificant.
    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    and mea culpa, Jono, for making you waste that grand -- but i still much prefer the Cron. just as, frankly, i prefer the look of the old Nocti to the new
    No No - I wasn't saying that I regretted the decision . . just that I wasn't sure it was worth a grand. Life being as it is, almost immediately after I said that, the rain cleared the sun came out, and I dashed out with the M9 and 28 'cron . . . and it was wonderful!

    Anyway, I'm much too arrogant to ever blame anyone else for a decision I made!

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    -- it all comes down to taste and i am obviously more interested in character than perfection. i also look for a draw that works best for black and white (and, yes, Neil, i PP from RAW -- another mea culpa).
    Interesting how nice the little 35 summarit is.
    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post

    Ricoh supposedly has an announcement next week and i am waiting with bated breath. for usability, i do love Ricohs. as for what the actual camera will be, i've seen rumours of just about everything under the sun. the only constant is the APS-C sensor with interchangeable lenses. what those are and how it works, i have no clue. and, whilst i am not claiming that Ricoh lenses are better than Leica M's, i have been very content with those in the GRD's.
    Quite right - and as you say, the usability is really second to none. My issue is that I want something which will go in a pocket and have great IQ. A Ricoh the size of the GF1 with an APS c sensor won't float my boat (I may as well take the M9). This is the temptation of the X1 . . that it will fit in a pocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    if Ricoh can come up with the goods for less money, interchangeable lenses, and excellent usability, then, well, i don't really need the red dot.
    Well, if it's APS-c, then it would have to be spectacularly good to be an M9 replacement, and if it has interchangeable lenses and an APS-c sensor, then I can't really see how it can be anything like as small as an X1 (could be wrong of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    i am eagerly looking forward to both sets of reviews coming out because never say never. i just know that while the X1 had sex appeal, i was less than impressed with the few seconds i had it in my hands. not that it really counts -- it was a pre-production model so the slow/bad focusing and funky metering i'm sure will be evened out.
    We live in exciting times!

    All the very best.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    They aren't doing it for me either (even though I really want to like them). But I don't think for a moment that APS-c is going to be an improvement . . the difference in sensor size compared to the little sensors of the D-lux 4 and GRD is insignificant.
    i'm not sure, either, which is still why i'm somewhat tempted by the GRDIII -- maybe small sensor is enough? maybe that's all i'm looking for to complement my M? i honestly haven't decided yet... my heart was broken when the Sigma turned out to be such a dog as i thought the Foveon sensor was the cat's meow.

    No No - I wasn't saying that I regretted the decision . . just that I wasn't sure it was worth a grand. Life being as it is, almost immediately after I said that, the rain cleared the sun came out, and I dashed out with the M9 and 28 'cron . . . and it was wonderful!

    Anyway, I'm much too arrogant to ever blame anyone else for a decision I made!
    you are an arrogant little ----, but i did push you that extra inch

    Interesting how nice the little 35 summarit is.
    i have 3 35's! not looking, not thinking about any others. my ears are sealed. i have too many other focal lengths to lust after, not to mention cameras to save up for... you selling that BP M9 (cheaply) btw when your grey comes in?

    Quite right - and as you say, the usability is really second to none. My issue is that I want something which will go in a pocket and have great IQ. A Ricoh the size of the GF1 with an APS c sensor won't float my boat (I may as well take the M9). This is the temptation of the X1 . . that it will fit in a pocket.
    the Ricoh is rumoured to be the size of the GRD/GX series, though, so it would most definitely be pocketable. sexy? well, nothing could be as sexy as you, Jono...

    seriously, though, size is a huge issue for me as well. i'm looking to use it the times i don't want to lug the M for whatever reason. when it reaches a certain mass, why bother?

    Well, if it's APS-c, then it would have to be spectacularly good to be an M9 replacement, and if it has interchangeable lenses and an APS-c sensor, then I can't really see how it can be anything like as small as an X1 (could be wrong of course).
    did i ever say it would/could be as good as an M9??? the camera i am looking for is a companion, not a replacement.

    We live in exciting times!
    that we do! unfortunately, my eyes are much bigger than my pocketbook, so i need to find that "pocket" camera i'll be happy with that suits my needs whilst i save up for the M9/M10...

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Mark and I got a chance to spend some serious time with the X1 at PhotoPlus in NYC. We saw a number of large prints and talked with a few Leica reps that had used the camera. I think the image quality will be a lot like the Nikon D90 with a Leica 24/2.8 asph ....so I think it will be exceptional. The Leica executive that took us through the camera said that eventually they expect to have a wider lens but that the issue is the same as with the M . The angle of incident requires micro lenses to go wider and maintain the quality they want.

    If you look at the D90 you get performance similar to an M8 with a +1- 1 1/2 EV. The Leica rep confirmed this based on his experience and of course you have the 24/2.8asph lens. In the interview with the Leica chief lens designer he stated that the X1 24 is based on the design of the M lens.

    I think the performance will be quite good all around and much better than any other small camera .

    The handling is the other issue as many cameras have failed because of weak autofocus performance or poor handling. For me manual focus means hyperfocus and you can do this quite quickly on a scale on the LCD activated by the focus preference button. Auto focus had several modes but I liked that you could see the green light (in focus) while looking through and external finder. I felt with a little practice this camera could be great for street. I look forward to testing the speed of the face recognition mode as it could be useful for street action. (most likely though it will spot for me).

    As to pairing it up with an M ..this is a camera you could have with you always. Nothing compares to working with two M bodies and fast lenses for street work. There are situations where I would like to be even more discrete and maybe not be carrying quite so much $$$ around at night.

    I would have liked a faster lens and maybe a little wider like a 28mm equivalent but this camera is pretty close based on the specs .

    We did complain about the camera being grey paint as a real tool for street should be black...so some tape would be required.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Roger, you bring up details I forgot to mention about our meeting with Leica at PhotoPlus. One of the things you mention that is important to me is speed of the camera (e.g., short shutter lag, quick auto focus, etc.). All black body would be nice as well.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Does the X1 has image stabilizer? For some reason, popflash seems to indicate that in their ad.

    http://www.popflash.com/index.php?p=...=4316&parent=0

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    You guys got me researching the Ricoh rumors. Interesting times indeed. Maybe we will know more next week.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by francishmt View Post
    Does the X1 has image stabilizer? For some reason, popflash seems to indicate that in their ad.[/url]
    It does have some sort of electronic image stabilization. I haven't been able to get any specific details of how it works or if it works. It is not mechanical stabilization of lens or sensor.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    It does have some sort of electronic image stabilization. I haven't been able to get any specific details of how it works or if it works. It is not mechanical stabilization of lens or sensor.
    Interesting.... electronic IS that is not on lens or sensor. Somehow the brochure doesn't even mention it!

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Cam

    But I don't think for a moment that APS-c is going to be an improvement . . the difference in sensor size compared to the little sensors of the D-lux 4 and GRD is insignificant.
    Here is a graphic of sensor sizes. Copied from Digital outback. The D-lux 4 has approximately a 5x crop factor vs. 2x vs. 1.5x. There is actually a huge difference between the d-lux4/GRD vs. either 4/3 or APS-c.

    On this chart the d-lux 4 is slightly bigger than the 1/1.8 and smaller than the 2/3 sensor that was in the Digilux 2




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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Thanks for the report Roger. This is what I was hoping for in the X1. As I have mentioned in previous conversations, I just hope they actually can PRODUCE them.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Mark and I got a chance to spend some serious time with the X1 at PhotoPlus in NYC. We saw a number of large prints and talked with a few Leica reps that had used the camera. I think the image quality will be a lot like the Nikon D90 with a Leica 24/2.8 asph ....so I think it will be exceptional. The Leica executive that took us through the camera said that eventually they expect to have a wider lens but that the issue is the same as with the M . The angle of incident requires micro lenses to go wider and maintain the quality they want.

    If you look at the D90 you get performance similar to an M8 with a +1- 1 1/2 EV. The Leica rep confirmed this based on his experience and of course you have the 24/2.8asph lens. In the interview with the Leica chief lens designer he stated that the X1 24 is based on the design of the M lens.

    I think the performance will be quite good all around and much better than any other small camera .

    The handling is the other issue as many cameras have failed because of weak autofocus performance or poor handling. For me manual focus means hyperfocus and you can do this quite quickly on a scale on the LCD activated by the focus preference button. Auto focus had several modes but I liked that you could see the green light (in focus) while looking through and external finder. I felt with a little practice this camera could be great for street. I look forward to testing the speed of the face recognition mode as it could be useful for street action. (most likely though it will spot for me).

    As to pairing it up with an M ..this is a camera you could have with you always. Nothing compares to working with two M bodies and fast lenses for street work. There are situations where I would like to be even more discrete and maybe not be carrying quite so much $$$ around at night.

    I would have liked a faster lens and maybe a little wider like a 28mm equivalent but this camera is pretty close based on the specs .

    We did complain about the camera being grey paint as a real tool for street should be black...so some tape would be required.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    AA filter, I hope it has none. I've been with Nikon digital bodies for a long time, and the newer sensors (especially the one in my D700) really doesn't have that pixel sharpness I get from foveon sensors (those without AA filters)

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by francishmt View Post
    Interesting.... electronic IS that is not on lens or sensor. Somehow the brochure doesn't even mention it!
    iirc it looks at a couple of frames for "shake" and corrects on the fly. It is not a physical stabilization of either sensor or lens elements.

    I think this feature and AF are big question marks. This still has a lot of my interest. Like a few other heretics, I've now had two u4/3 cams and let both of them go. I have big hopes for the Ricoh rumored cam. The other darkhorse is that the Pentax Kx is getting seriously good reviews wrt iq.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    I still wonder how the (speed of) user interface and the AF as well as the IQ will compare to the gf1.
    The x1 is small but I found (the pre-production modell I saw some time ago) not to be that much smaller than a gf1.
    I would prefer 35mm FOV vs the 40mm fov of the gf1 - but than I would like to have the video functiopn of the gf1 - also f1.7 wouldnt hurt.

    Regarding user interface itself - the x1 looks stylish and I like the simple approach-but on the other side those wheels etc. are tiny and I wonder which concept (x1 vs gf1) will be easier and more practical to use.

    I really like that there are more and more options of small cameras with large sensors.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    So how much will that thing cost in the end ? I mean the specs are on one side quite nice on the other kind not at all. The thing some pointed out remains, why only a 2.8 lens, which really isn't that fast.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    I handled an X1 at the Seattle LHSA meeting. Christian Erhardt's sample images (which he himself shot in Seattle the day before) were beautiful and very impressive. They included some night shots from the Space Needle which would have been noise city coming from most point-and-shoots, and they looked clean on the projector. (No, I don't know what ISO he used).

    Anyone who has used Barnack (screw-mount) Leica will get a smile out of the X1. The body shape makes it feel like a much more convenient digital version of a IIIf or IIIg. It's a camera that's pocketable, appears to have the image quality of a DSLR, the automation of a point-and-shoot if you want it, and convenient all-manual controls if you'd rather have that.

    Christian said that the lens speed and fixed focal length were chosen to keep the camera small.

    The price and the f/2.8 lens are the only things I don't like. Let's see what Luminous Landscape, etc. have to say next week. I have a feeling that those who will pay the price will get a sweet carry-anywhere camera with IQ they don't need to apologize for. If you need f/1.4, look elsewhere.

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    Re: X1 Production Model Reviews Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    So how much will that thing cost in the end ? I mean the specs are on one side quite nice on the other kind not at all. The thing some pointed out remains, why only a 2.8 lens, which really isn't that fast.
    The US price is around $2,000. AFAIK the CMOS sensor in the X1 does have an AA filter. From what I understand, there aren't a lot of options out there for obtaining custom CMOS sensors. I could be wrong, but that is what I heard somewhere.

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