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Thread: X1 samples

  1. #51
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Kevin,
    Geeze, I bought that Brooklyn bridge years ago. I got it for a trade for an M3 and a 50 Cron.....

    and....wherever I drive...whenever I drive...I own the friggin road to....
    but I ain't selling Leica just yet.....

  2. #52
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Vivek,
    The D300 sensor isn't so great is it? I sold that camera because it shot hot in the highlights all the time....
    Maybe it's just me again......but that sensor ain't nuttin' to w-right home about...

  3. #53
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    Some of the guys "who know" have no qualms in saying that the M8 uses a Kodak sensor.
    . . . and the M9 - it can be quite difficult admitting to it at smart dinner parties

    The knowledge is out there . . . If Roger says he knows, then I'd bet on the fact that it's not a rumour as far as he's concerned.

    but I'm on both your sides . . . just trying to do a little diffusing (and protecting the stupidities of the english language of course)

    Just this guy you know

  4. #54
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    Re: X1 samples

    I love the language just for what it is, Jono.

    Here is some information on Sony's sensor (dated 2007):

    http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/c...pdf/imx021.pdf

    Regardless of what you say or any number of others say, this isn't a question of what Roger knows or heard.

    It still is a rumor.

    Does the X1 brochure say it is Sony's IMX021?

  5. #55
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Vivek,
    The D300 sensor isn't so great is it? I sold that camera because it shot hot in the highlights all the time....
    Maybe it's just me again......but that sensor ain't nuttin' to w-right home about...
    Don, May be it is the kitzoom you fired it up with.

    Yeah, it isn't great but it is several times better than the G1 I carry nowadays.

  6. #56
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It still is a rumor.
    Perhaps we need a clear, concise and accurate definition of the word rumour (and some agreement as to how to spell it!)

    I'm off to bed
    sleep well (I will)

    Just this guy you know

  7. #57
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Don, May be it is the kitzoom you fired it up with.

    Yeah, it isn't great but it is several times better than the G1 I carry nowadays.
    Vivek, I wish that was the case...I sold that one and all the Nikon stuff. I still have the 5D's...and all "L" glass......for what that's worth but that's another story....

  8. #58
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    oh and another thing..a bit more serious

    bokeh 28/2.8 on a 1.5 crop?.. is it ever anything to write home about?

    K
    Not exactly the same, but Pentax 31/1.8 ltd on a K20d (1.5 crop) is pretty magical.

  9. #59
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Streetshooter View Post
    Kevin,
    Geeze, I bought that Brooklyn bridge years ago. I got it for a trade for an M3 and a 50 Cron.....

    and....wherever I drive...whenever I drive...I own the friggin road to....
    but I ain't selling Leica just yet.....
    You must drive a Mercedes then. Every Mercedes comes with an owner's certificate to the road. The only legal accidents are those between two Mercedes!
    Carsten - Website

  10. #60
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Perhaps we need a clear, concise and accurate definition of the word rumour (and some agreement as to how to spell it!)

    I'm off to bed
    sleep well (I will)
    Vivek appears to favour the American spelling, even though properly-spelling Canadians liberated Holland.

    I wish that when the Americans took on the task of cleaning up the English language, they had actually finished the job, instead of just poking at it. I mean, who changes "rumour" to "rumor", but leaves the spelling of "laugh"???
    Carsten - Website

  11. #61
    Subscriber Member Streetshooter's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    You must drive a Mercedes then. Every Mercedes comes with an owner's certificate to the road. The only legal accidents are those between two Mercedes!
    Nah....Chevy and Ford....oh and Harley's.....

  12. #62
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Vivek appears to favour the American spelling, even though properly-spelling Canadians liberated Holland.

    I wish that when the Americans took on the task of cleaning up the English language, they had actually finished the job, instead of just poking at it. I mean, who changes "rumour" to "rumor", but leaves the spelling of "laugh"???
    Carsten, It was a major achievement when "Sulfur" was accepted as the standard spelling.

  13. #63
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Vivek appears to favour the American spelling, even though properly-spelling Canadians liberated Holland.

    I wish that when the Americans took on the task of cleaning up the English language, they had actually finished the job, instead of just poking at it. I mean, who changes "rumour" to "rumor", but leaves the spelling of "laugh"???
    Since we're off topic here ... I'll add some more.

    I recommend all folks interested in the American/English discussion take a read of "Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson. The state of the language will make sense from that ...

    Btw, we British often seem to get all worked up over american spelling but the reality is that many of the American spellings reflect ENGLISH spelling as of the 17th century where the languages started to diverge somewhat. Those extra 'u's are relatively recent, as is the trend to 'sch' as soft vs 'sk' etc. I conscientiously refuse to consider the bastardization of the language with words like 'nite' though - again a manufactured spelling (you can blame a Chicago newspaper zealot & US Simplified Spelling Board for that one) that is now popular.

    All said though, non-English speakers learning the language have my sympathies because we do seem to have made it tremendously difficult and obscure at times.

    Folks might enjoy this site ...
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 6th November 2009 at 08:32.

  14. #64
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    Re: X1 samples

    Graham, G.B.Shaw pointed out (a while ago) that fish can be spelled as GHOTI.

    (GH from enough, O from Women, TI from Nation)

    "Nite" (however horrible it may be to many) is least of the problem.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Will's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Some of the English spellings date from the time of the first printing presses. The German speakers who brought them here used to add extra letters in order to justify the paragraphs, the spelling would change depending on whether they need to make the sentence longer. Besides it is all Ben Johnson's fault for writing the first dictionary, before that there were many ways to spell words.

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    Re: X1 samples

    I volunteered for awhile helping non-reading (older) Americans learn to read, at least minimally. 'Twasn't easy to explain some of those 'sounds the same, spelled quite differently--with different meanings'.

    I think the net has confused some of us also. As example, I find myself spelling gray--'grey' sometimes-- and sometimes the US way--and then the phrases like 'horses for courses'. I find a number of Brit sayings infiltrating my speech--without my permission, BTW LOL.

    Diane

  17. #67
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    Re: X1 samples

    Besides it is all Ben Johnson's fault for writing the first dictionary, before that there were many ways to spell words.

    Yea he screwed me up royally.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I conscientiously refuse to consider the bastardization of the language
    That in itself is a bastardisation!

  19. #69
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Since we're off topic here ... I'll add some more.

    I recommend all folks interested in the American/English discussion take a read of "Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson. The state of the language will make sense from that ...

    Folks might enjoy this site ...
    I remember reading in that delightful book about words whose meanings were reversed over time. A Shakespearean-era letter was quoted to start as: "You wrote me a nice and scolding letter", where 'scolding' evidently had a positive meaning.

    Osman

  20. #70
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    Re: X1 samples

    disgraced 100m runner from Canada wrote a dictionary?

    ... must be a quick read :-)

    K

  21. #71
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Besides it is all Ben Johnson's fault for writing the first dictionary, before that there were many ways to spell words.

    Yea he screwed me up royally.
    All becomes clear - you were all sorted before.

    Mind you Guy, I didn't have you as quite that old

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  22. #72
    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    ugly ugly bokeh... that flower pic really should have been deleted.
    I've just had a proper look: what am I supposed to see for £2k?

    And, in NornIrlnd, they would say that the bokeh of the flower is 'boke' or 'bokey'.
    Sláinte

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  23. #73
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    I've just had a proper look: what am I supposed to see for £2k?

    And, in NornIrlnd, they would say that the bokeh of the flower is 'boke' or 'bokey'.
    Actually, it's only £1.3K (quite enough I hear you say). Bokeh is tough though. I've seen something quite as nasty from the mythical version IV 35 'cron.

    More evidence required (well, I think so anyway!).

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  24. #74
    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Actually, it's only £1.3K
    Cheap at twice the price...NOT.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Actually, it's only £1.3K (quite enough I hear you say). Bokeh is tough though. I've seen something quite as nasty from the mythical version IV 35 'cron.

    More evidence required (well, I think so anyway!).
    i've seen something that nasty from just about every lens i own at one time or another, so, yeah, it happens... (btw, the v.1 is the king for me!)

    but it gets my goat that i can get something much more pleasing in a similar situation from the original Ricoh GRD.

    for the price ($2K, £1.3K, whatever), i expected better from Leica. my bad. i don't want something i have to stop down all the time, no matter how good the high ISO is.

    i looked at the images and started thinking, hmmmm, i wonder if Alien Skin Bokeh is any good. and that's funny because i never think that when using a small sensor. the X1 just seems to be half-arsed, both in sensor and lens speed (which is the real crux of the problem).

    and i'm saying this as somebody who actually really wanted to like this camera, despite the obscene price, because it seemingly had so much of what i was looking for (lens speed aside).

    'll be waiting to see Ricoh's announcement this week and praying that it doesn't disappoint. believe it or not, i actually have been looking for a fixed lens...

    i can't believe i'm saying this, but the samples from the X1 almost make me want to take a more serious look at the DP2 and i hate hate hate Sigma's interface! or just stick with the smaller sensor of a GRDIII... either way, money is saved. the red dot alone does not seduce me.

  26. #76
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    Re: X1 samples

    So, based on two dozen images on a single test site, you have found the truth about this little camera and its Emperor's clothes. That is quite an amazing talent when most people, including pros, generally judge that they need to work with a lens for weeks, if not months, to really find something out about the character of a lens. Perhaps you can teach everyone else here to be so clever too.
    Last edited by carstenw; 7th November 2009 at 04:11.
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    Re: X1 samples

    Carsten -- i am speaking of my needs only. and, yes, for 2K i can tell.

    it takes quite a long time to test the true character of a lens, true. but i can tell in a very short time whether a lens is worth the bother to learn. perhaps i am more clever as you so snarkily say, or perhaps i just know what i want.

  28. #78
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    Re: X1 samples

    I can show you photos of 35 Cron IV boke which would make you cringe, but this does not contradict the fact that it is capable of some very nice boke, and has been labelled the "King of Bokeh" by Mike Johnston. If you extrapolate this situation to the 24 Elmarit on the X1, you will see that trying to make conclusions from 20 shots or so is a fool's errand. If you want to know what it can do, wait until you have seen many more shots, your needs notwithstanding.
    Carsten - Website

  29. #79
    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Carsten..

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    So, based on two dozen images on a single test site, you have found the truth about this little camera and its Emperor's clothes. That is quite an amazing talent when most people, including pros, generally judge that they need to work with a lens for weeks, if not months, to really find something out about the character of a lens. Perhaps you can teach everyone else here to be so clever too.
    I think more than a few here have the "talent" and ability to look at a group of images and realize there are a few issues with them. I was not impressed by those images either, yet you can find people gushing over them in this and other forums. Different strokes I suppose.

    What is even more bothersome is that Leica allowed DPReview to post the first images from an X1 production model. What's wrong with that picture? (Pardon the pun)... Why did Leica not have a talented, or at least mediocre, photographer (surely they know a few) create an impressive image gallery on Leica's own X1 site instead of those random snapshots on DPReview??

    From what I have seen thus far, the X1 photos could have been taken by just about any sub $800 point and shoot.. and this is making the GF1 look better and better all the time.. on performance, versatility and price.

    I've not ruled out the X1 but I really expected the production model to produce amazing images and thus far I am far from amazed by anything I have seen... and I have to wonder about the camera's potential.
    Last edited by Jim Radcliffe; 7th November 2009 at 05:54.
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    Re: X1 samples

    Not that Impressive for the price....
    but then I look at most digital photos
    and after a Point
    EVERYTHING is so Refined & Slick.....and on occasion that slight smeariness
    I sometimes can't tell most Digi Cam's apart...

    - Helen

  31. #81
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    Re: X1 samples

    I agree with most of you. These samples don't look that great. However, remember that this camera is considerably smaller than the smallest Micro Four Thirds camera-lens combination, so for some folks its only competition will be DP2.

  32. #82
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I agree with most of you. These samples don't look that great. However, remember that this camera is considerably smaller than the smallest Micro Four Thirds camera-lens combination, so for some folks its only competition will be DP2.
    or, possibly, the new Ricoh, if it stays within the GX size.

  33. #83
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Amin

    having seen/held E-P1, GF1 and X1 - i dispute your "considerably smaller" comment. X1 is in the same ball park dimension wise as the micro 4/3 cameras. None of them are as pocketable as something like a Canon G9 or indeed a GRD.

    K

  34. #84
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    Amin

    having seen/held E-P1, GF1 and X1 - i dispute your "considerably smaller" comment.
    Well, there's not much point in my disputing something so subjective. I have not held an X1, but it's DP-sized, right? To me, a DP2 is considerably smaller than an E-P1. Your mileage varies.

  35. #85
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    this camera is considerably smaller than the smallest Micro Four Thirds camera-lens combination, so for some folks its only competition will be DP2.

    I looked back at the dp2 samples after looking at the x1 photos and the difference is quite striking.I also looked at the eos 7 and the difference is ,obviously,even more striking;.....at the moment this unfortunatly looks like an expensive toy,....... leica taking the pisss.
    Im wondering just what is inside digital cameras,do their circuit boards actually fill up their boxes?Be interesting to see just what is inside the x1 and what the components cost,I mean if the lens is no good?
    But then maybe Im wrong,,perhaps when it has its "profile"sorted for C5 or K9 all will be well,software to the rescue.......hurah.......hurrraaahhhhhhh!!!!!!

  36. #86
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    Re: X1 samples

    E-P2 : 121mm (W) x 70mm (H) x 36mm (D) (excluding protrusions)
    4.7" x 2.7" x 1.4"

    X1: 124 x 60 x 32 mm (4.9 x 2.4 x 1.3 in)

  37. #87
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    (excluding protrusions)
    Don't forget that protrusion called the lens .

  38. #88
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    Re: X1 samples

    That was copied from dpreview. Which lens?

  39. #89
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    That was copied from dpreview. Which lens?
    As measured by DPR, that E-P2 cannot be used to make pictures. Ie, no lens .

  40. #90
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    ok

    quick and dirty photoshop job... x1 and e-p1 squeezed into their published dimensions.... x1 is smaller in the body... mainly in height

    neither include the lens in their calculations... used the pancake on the E-p1 as it is the focal length/aperture equivalent.

    K
    Last edited by kevinparis; 15th November 2009 at 07:07.

  41. #91
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    Re: X1 samples

    Looks considerably smaller to me, unless of course one pockets the X1 with the lens extended .

  42. #92
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    Re: X1 samples

    amin...

    only the first two sections of the x1 lens retract...it doesn't all retract into the body... so depthwise its pretty much the same as the e-p1.

    K

  43. #93
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    Re: Carsten..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    I think more than a few here have the "talent" and ability to look at a group of images and realize there are a few issues with them. I was not impressed by those images either, yet you can find people gushing over them in this and other forums. Different strokes I suppose.

    What is even more bothersome is that Leica allowed DPReview to post the first images from an X1 production model. What's wrong with that picture? (Pardon the pun)... Why did Leica not have a talented, or at least mediocre, photographer (surely they know a few) create an impressive image gallery on Leica's own X1 site instead of those random snapshots on DPReview??
    You already answered your own question Jim, dpr is gusher central for Leica!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    From what I have seen thus far, the X1 photos could have been taken by just about any sub $800 point and shoot.. and this is making the GF1 look better and better all the time.. on performance, versatility and price.

    I've not ruled out the X1 but I really expected the production model to produce amazing images and thus far I am far from amazed by anything I have seen... and I have to wonder about the camera's potential.
    Amazing images are made by people and not cameras, and they can be deceiving. Personally, I find simple and basic images like those posted on dpr to tell me more about the CAMERA's character than super shots from a top photographer controlling everything in the scene for that advertising image.

  44. #94
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    amin...

    only the first two sections of the x1 lens retract...it doesn't all retract into the body... so depthwise its pretty much the same as the e-p1.

    K
    Here's my quick rendition:




    Keeping in mind the difference in height and weight, I'm pretty sure that the difference will be significant from my perspective. As I mentioned, I've handled the DP2 and E-P1 side by side, and the size difference was considerable to me.

  45. #95
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Well, I know that dpreview has a soft spot for Leica (as do I)... they even changed their site logo to a Leica red dot a little while ago.

    Note that Leica didn't pay for that.

    Cheers

    Brian

  46. #96
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Amin, I don't think the size is as big a factor as ergonomics (certainly not to me). People love the Leica controls... I just don't think I could cope with that lens - too slow, too fragile looking, too limited.

    Cheers

    Brian

  47. #97
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Amin

    Hope you will be happy with the x1... but your original assertion that it is 'considerably smaller' in my opinion doesn't really hold up. Yes the x1 may be slightly smaller in some dimensions... but overall the package is about the same - certainly any difference in size is not enough to justify choosing one over the other.

    K

  48. #98
    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Brian

    Agree about the ergonomics... I like the simplicity of the x1 compared to the e-p1

    K

  49. #99
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: X1 samples

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    Amin

    Hope you will be happy with the x1...
    Kevin, I've no plans to buy the X1

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    ... but your original assertion that it is 'considerably smaller' in my opinion doesn't really hold up.
    I think you're being silly. "Considerably" isn't a scientific term. There is no percentage or objective quantification for what is "considerable". I have handled the DP2, which is similar in size and form to the X1, and I have handled the E-P1 with 17mm pancake. To me, the difference in size is considerable. It is not enough of a difference for me to choose the X1, but I believe there is enough of a difference there to be a major factor for some people despite the fact that it isn't a big difference to you.

  50. #100
    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: Carsten..

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    You already answered your own question Jim, dpr is gusher central for Leica!

    Amazing images are made by people and not cameras, and they can be deceiving. Personally, I find simple and basic images like those posted on dpr to tell me more about the CAMERA's character than super shots from a top photographer controlling everything in the scene for that advertising image.
    Actually there seemed to be more at DPReview who feel the same way I do about the samples. The gushers were more prominent in the Rangefinder Forum, LUF and some other boards I visit.

    Let's face it.. it will be a coin toss. For the Leica FanBoys it will be as expected. For the rest of us it will be a bit more personal and critical based on what and how we shoot and what we need to shoot in our own style and fashion.

    We're looking at this in two different ways.. I am looking at the images in a technical sense, not artistic, subject, emotion, etc.. A Holga is capbale of producing an amazing image... but at $2,000 for the X1 I expected to see images that were, for lack of a better descriptor, "Leica Like" in appearance. I did not see that, instead I saw run of the mill snaps that could have been made with almost any high end P&S.

    Now please don't push the "Leica Like" button.. you know what that means as well as I do. I should not need to clarify that even if I could.
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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