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Thread: Leica R looking forward

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    Leica R looking forward

    The simplest thing for the MD to do was to confirm that the new R series camera would in fact be engineered to make existing lenses compatible.

    Why hasn't he?

    I can understand that Leica would want to start a fresh page with all the bells and whistles that anyone could want and maybe this would make it impossible to maintain backwards compatibility - ala Canon's move from F mount to EOS..
    note how many coulds and woulds involved in above?

    The more I think about the lack of clarity or guarantee or certainty regarding this issue - the less I like it...I have a LOT of Leica R glass that may soon be irrelevant.

    Leica have spent a LOT of energy making the M8 'upgradeable' - and NOT ONE IOTA OF COMFORT TO R USERS on the one BASIC issue we are all confronted with - namely lens compatibility.

    Any thoughts on the issue?

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    The R's user base is the only one Leica can count on for its FF (or more than FF) DSLR in the first place. Loosing backward compatibility would be the best way to loose this user base as well in favour of Canon, Nikon, or Sony and its forthcoming 25mpix DSLR. I guess Leica has not decided on important details yet, like selling adapter rings or mounting new bayonets on existing lenses, in so far as the R-mount will be changed of course.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Peter, I think you've answered your own question.

    The company, right or wrong, is treating the R line as a non-core or side-line business. To take on Nikon et al would require shifting massive amounts of manpower, $$ and management focus away from the M line - just to make an ATTEMPT at market success with the R_ -- and with NO hope of ever becoming a top-4 player in that segment

    I would consider the information void you discuss re: lenses (and a body) as a clear warning of disappointing news to come in the form of any of the following: no easy lens compatibility (*caveat below), a weak (from a user perspective) attempt at SLR re-penetration with a PanaLeica unit driven by Panasonic, a concept camera only (I paraphrase "...we'll show a HINT of what to expect..."), etc .

    The MD as you mention would have nothing to lose by mentioning 'no worries' re: older lenses. Used prices would go up, orders from retailers at least continue to move R inventory, and they would keep a LOT or R users/owners in the brand until they saw a body.

    However, if they even suggest no backward compatibility (* caveat: or don't know if they'll have a workable, e.g. financially beneficial, solution yet) - a lot of owners would be gone to N/C/S in anger 5 minutes after the interview and orders from retailers would stop as used prices plunged.

    I LOVE Leica glass, but the moment I saw that interview, I started selling all but my least expensive. I can't/won't afford holding onto a lot (for me) of costly hard to shift lenses that could drop in price and become even harder to shift. I'd rather limit my exposure - and risk buying back a smaller number of (maybe) more costly or same-cost (some folks will always hate any new camera) units at higher prices if all this is much ado about nothing.

    However, remember in the movies when the hero says ".... that's the problem Bob, it's TOO quiet...."
    Last edited by robmac; 28th March 2008 at 04:42.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    LCT - I think/hope you are correct, I really do..then I sak myself...if they really believed this - why not relax everyone..the company is being purposefully vague and avoiding..

    robmac - I just have an itchy feeling in my bones - in my line of business this usually leads me to cut and run ..or even short..I guess you have a hedge in place...

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    However, remember in the movies when the hero says ".... that's the problem Bob, it's TOO quiet...."
    Well, there's an obscure movie quote.... Real Men with Jim Belushi and John Ritter. Classic campy fun.

    To address the R issue... We can approach it two ways.

    The first is looking at Leica's history and business/product philosophy. Look at how the R system has maintaied compatibility to date. 2 cam lenses are able to be updated to 3 cams to work on modern cameras. 3 cam lenses can be upgraded to ROM to use the features of the R8 and R9/DMR. Leica just released this past year an adapter for R lenses to work on 4/3 system cameras like the Digilux 3. You can extrapolate and say that support is imminent, as they have never done anything to the contrary.

    The second approach is from a a foward looking perspective. Can Leica survice the DSLR wars without a fully-modern camera system. A lot of people criticized Canon for going to the EF mount. It allowed them to take technological leaps and bounds at the time. Some went to Nikon, but in the long run they gained significant, if not dominant market share. Nikon, of course, is putting the pedal to the metal and really delivering some truly outstanding products right now. They are the ones to beat.

    As I've said before I believe the true strengths of Leica are quality, build, and simple ergonomics. The DMR delivers amazing quality that I have not seen from any other 35mm DLSR system to date. My mind reels with the possibility of a quantumn leap forward in IQ with the R10. If that means that I can use the existing and extraordinary R lens lineup, fantastic! If it means that I can get truly revolutionary quality with new lenses, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. I expect the quality to be so far superior to the N/C offerings that a switch out of spite would be "cut off my nose to spite my face" kind of move.

    This is my 2 cents.

    David

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Well, there's an obscure movie quote.... Real Men with Jim Belushi and John Ritter. Classic campy fun.

    To address the R issue... We can approach it two ways.

    The first is looking at Leica's history and business/product philosophy. Look at how the R system has maintaied compatibility to date. 2 cam lenses are able to be updated to 3 cams to work on modern cameras. 3 cam lenses can be upgraded to ROM to use the features of the R8 and R9/DMR. Leica just released this past year an adapter for R lenses to work on 4/3 system cameras like the Digilux 3. You can extrapolate and say that support is imminent, as they have never done anything to the contrary.

    The second approach is from a a foward looking perspective. Can Leica survice the DSLR wars without a fully-modern camera system. A lot of people criticized Canon for going to the EF mount. It allowed them to take technological leaps and bounds at the time. Some went to Nikon, but in the long run they gained significant, if not dominant market share. Nikon, of course, is putting the pedal to the metal and really delivering some truly outstanding products right now. They are the ones to beat.

    As I've said before I believe the true strengths of Leica are quality, build, and simple ergonomics. The DMR delivers amazing quality that I have not seen from any other 35mm DLSR system to date. My mind reels with the possibility of a quantumn leap forward in IQ with the R10. If that means that I can use the existing and extraordinary R lens lineup, fantastic! If it means that I can get truly revolutionary quality with new lenses, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make. I expect the quality to be so far superior to the N/C offerings that a switch out of spite would be "cut off my nose to spite my face" kind of move.

    This is my 2 cents.

    David
    I believe that Leica has an exceptionally difficult challenge with the R series. To compete ..they really have to define the category as they do with the M8. They can not compete on broad scale against Nikon/Canon/Sony. They may be able to carve out a small market of pro s and enthusiasts that can afford the expense. The R series has always been multiples more expensive than nikon and canon. The new challenge is the "good enough" catagory.....you can see this in plasma tvs , autos and lots of electronics. Can you really use the increased capabilities of the high end products ...in most cases ..."no" but if its cool enough I can convince myself ...thats its a necessity. If I was designing the solution it would be to do final assembly and QC in Wetzler(Solms will be gone ) but lean heavily on outsourcing to keep the costs down. I don t think they intend to do this..so the design team has one heck of a challenge to design a solution that can be "made in Germany" , best in class IQ and at a price point that will attract both existing and new customers. I would expect that Lee might have had a quite different POV that the traditional Leica model. I read the interview as a real hedge on commitment for Photokina . I would bet that they will only be ready with a concept prototype and that they are a year away from having a real offering in the market. Nobody will be happier than me if I can get an R10 by Christmas.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Some great comments here.

    Peter - I spent my formative years working in a classified special projects (aka 'ego-projects') group for the CEO of a well known tech firm and then the bulk of my career as a financial analyst on the 'Street' so I hear where you're coming from.

    Every spider sense I have is screaming we are in for a let down. It's like the movie grunt in Vietnam with the 1000 yard stare. After you've been in a charged environment long enough you just develop a sixth sense when things just don't bode well.

    That being, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    LCT - I think/hope you are correct, I really do..then I sak myself...if they really believed this - why not relax everyone...
    Difficult to say of course but my guess is Leica has not decided on the 'details' i was referring to above yet. It would then be too soon to relax us so far. Now i don't mind if R users sell their lenses to be honest since i have still a 19mm Elmarit to buy and i'd like s/h prices to drop a lot more. C'mon guys!

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Wow am I on the fence - should I take advantage of the uncertainty and buy the lenses not in my R lineup or should I sell everything before the big drop. I was going to just sell my DMR but I just realized something - if there is a R10 and it doesn't support the current R glass then the DMR is the only game in town for those with R glass and these will be hard to find so I guess that's the last thing I should sell.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Wow am I on the fence - should I take advantage of the uncertainty and buy the lenses not in my R lineup or should I sell everything before the big drop. I was going to just sell my DMR but I just realized something - if there is a R10 and it doesn't support the current R glass then the DMR is the only game in town for those with R glass and these will be hard to find so I guess that's the last thing I should sell.
    or any 1D canon and 5D for many non WA

    BTW, I find it hard to fault the dmr...maybe ill pick up another

    anybody jumping ship willing to part with a mint R9/dmr

    victor

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?
    Victor

    If I were you I would sure hang on for six months to see what happens. It is hard to imagine that leica would abandon their legacy R lenses in hopes that there will be enough in a new system to attract the number of buyers they will need to make a new R system a success. Those of us who invested in the R system spent a virtual fortune on the glass and leica know that. I understand the paranoia that surrounds this (given my personal investment in R lenses) but the more business minded side of me says they won't go that route. JMHO

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Interesting perspectives.

    In almost all of my "camera dealings", since digital came on line, have been to maximize usefulness, while minimizing financial exposure (if that can be done with camera gear).

    So I buy early in the product cycle at a deep discount, put it to good use, and sell at a maximum just before the next wave.

    Leica R gear has never fit that pattern, and I've never expected it to. It's far more of a personal tool with unique characteristics. It is what it is, and I have never confused it with Canon or Nikon which produce images that are nothing like what the R system produces. Other than the now defunct Contax C/Y gear, the R is the only game in town if you want a precision, manual focus 35mm system.

    Even in the days of film, who among you ever confused a Leica R with a Nikon or Canon AF SLR? So, IMO, Leica need not concern themselves with what Canon or Nikon lovers what or don't want. It's ALWAYS been a select and discerning few who go their own way and use a R as a tool rather than an "investment."

    Now IF Leica should add focus confirmation and a FF sensor to a R10 that'd be really nice. If they abandon the current lens mount, I can only hope that everyone flips out and initially dumps their R gear at a deep discount, and that DMRs flood the market ... 'cause I need a 19/2.8 ROM and would immediately snap up another DMR/9 ... it's like nothing out there even now, and IMO that includes all the latest greatest.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Victor - I'd sell you my whole kit @90cents in the dollar I paid recently...everything is mint or better. How's that for a call?
    So my friend, how much for the DMR/9 and a 19/2.8 ROM if you have them : -)

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Another 19/2.8 buyer? Will make prices jump that... Oh well...

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    A patient 19/2.8 buyer. If prices jump, I won't : -)

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    You guys are killing me

    Let me just say that I am generally IN a system entirely OR out - entirely.

    As indicated in the post - I am getting the feeling that our existing R lenses may NOT be compatible with the new Leica SLR. The company has gone out of its way to almost encourage that concern.

    I have decided that I dont need my Canon gear - so I sold it all. Same thing for Leica DMR - if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens.

    I would love Leica to come out and put this issue of backwards ( lens) compatibiity to rest sooner rather than later - then I would keep everything a per original plan. I am an unashamed Leic nut - but have no interest in dead end systems.

    Hope this clarifies my concerns and thinking.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens...
    The s/h market is not that high any more i'm afraid.
    I've bought eight mostly mint 3-cam lenses for USD 3.5K last year and latest prices i've found out on eBay for mint ROM lenses were USD 630 for a 50/2, USD 1.5K for a 35/2, USD 2.5K for a 19/2.8 and same for a 180/2.8 APO # 11273.
    Still too high for me as a buyer but like my grand mother said never sell a Leica lens. Canikon will make the same when...

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You guys are killing me

    Let me just say that I am generally IN a system entirely OR out - entirely.

    As indicated in the post - I am getting the feeling that our existing R lenses may NOT be compatible with the new Leica SLR. The company has gone out of its way to almost encourage that concern.

    I have decided that I dont need my Canon gear - so I sold it all. Same thing for Leica DMR - if I could sell it ALL in one hit I would @90cent in the dollar I paid. BUT I have no interest in selling off any individual lens.

    I would love Leica to come out and put this issue of backwards ( lens) compatibiity to rest sooner rather than later - then I would keep everything a per original plan. I am an unashamed Leic nut - but have no interest in dead end systems.

    Hope this clarifies my concerns and thinking.
    Crystal Peter, crystal clear.

    Precisely why I liquidated the Leaf Aptus and Mamiya. Great system, fab back, but went Hassey H as the focus ... supporting two MF systems was becoming crazy expensive.

    If Leica abandons current R users, it'll be a whole new ball game. DSLRs are important to my paying work. The R system doesn't figure prominently there ... so if they go multiple cross type AF points with Leica quality optics, and a bigger, higher ISO sensor it'll be my Canon system that may take the hit ... and the DMR/9 plus current R Lenses that becomes a "curiosity" that I goof around with. It still takes amazing images.

    Leica is selling off many demo R lenses, I mean a LOT of them. I wonder if that is some sign?

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Crystal Peter, crystal clear.


    Leica is selling off many demo R lenses, I mean a LOT of them. I wonder if that is some sign?
    umm I guess you may have a point there Marc...perhaps we are both making teh same point ( nicely)

    re Leaf - Hasselblad have done everyone a favour 'forcing' the issue with their bodies moving to closed end. I bought and waited for the AFi after being told that my Leaf back would go on that - which has ended up being BS so I owe Leaf nothing/nada/zippo ... I tested the SinarHy6 and I prefer the blad body and lenses - and I don't like the clunky Sinar software.

    It is down to either Phase One or Imacon for me ..and given the number of Fujiblad lenses I own ...looks like that 31 or 39 megapixel puppy in blad guise is next on my switch into agenda..

    I agree the DMR/R9 makes great pics so I am happy to wait and play - I know the new Leica DSLR is going to blow CaNikon away ..but get ready for BIG dollar outlays on camera and lenses ...might be fun.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...If Leica abandons current R users, it'll be a whole new ball game...
    Sure but this would be hardly compatible with Kauffmann's statement according to which the new R "shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers".
    Or he has a very special sense of humour.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    Sure but this would be hardly compatible with Kauffmann's statement according to which the new R "shall more than satisfy the needs of our customers".
    Or he has a very special sense of humour.
    From his lips to God's ears.

    We'll see. I guess it depends on the definition of "our customers".

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    "...looks like that 31 or 39 megapixel puppy in blad guise is next on my switch into agenda."

    I haven't regretted that decision yet. They keep improving the system, with many improvements coming from firmware and soft ware upgrades. As they tighten down Phocus it'll become much more in keeping with my needs. I have the 31 and 39 which I use with both Fuji/Blad glass 28 to 300mm and all my Zeiss 500 series lenses fisheye to 350 ... and use both backs on a Rollei Xact-II with Digitar view lenses 28 to 120 macro. Frankly, there is little I cannot accomplish with this tightened down kit. Maybe add an ALPA someday in future for travel/persoanl W/A work with the 39 meg back.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    I bet the owners are so pissed thatthey listened to boofheads :sleep006: and made the DMR a compromised less than full frame camera in order to be able to use existing R bodies and clear that inventory...- what a stoopid error that was - imagine how many sales they would have made with a full framed Imacon chip hmmm?

    so I guess I am not that impressed with Leica's ability to make teh right decisions..again with the M8 and the IR issues etc..again less than full frame

    yeah yeah teh files are great - but man - I want my glass to work liek it was DESIGNED to work...

    *sigh...get a grip Petey.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    I am getting more and more worried about the status of the R system. Steven Lee was gung ho for the system, but with his ignominious departure, I am not sure that Leica will continue work on an R10...at least not before an M9. The R system is a hard sell. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but even I, a committed R system user, can't really afford most of the lenses. I just realized that I bought every single lens and body used. I bought the DMR new, but all the bodies and lenses used. It is no wonder with the R lens pricing the way it is. I was looking at B&H, and there are only 3 R system lenses under 2000 dollars -- the 50/2, 35-70/4 and 24/2.8. The 24mm is a Minolta design, so that is only 2. On the other hand, the 15mm is listed at 8995! That's 7000 dollars more than the Canon 14mm f/2.8. How many people need a 15mm lens so good that they are willing to pay 7000 dollars more for a bit more performance over their rival? I remember talking to Tony Rose a while ago and he said that he had not sold an R lens in year...

    Let's put together a reasonable guess on the outlay of an R10, given they continue using the current lenses.
    R10 body -- let's say 8000, reasonable given that the DMR started at 5000, and the bodies around 3000.
    19mm f/2.8 -- 4495
    28-90mm f/2.8-4.5 -- 4495
    100mm f/2.8 APO Macro -- 4295
    180mm f/2.8 APO -- 4995.
    50mm f/1.4 -- 3195.
    Total: 29,475 at B&H before tax or shipping.
    That is just an example, but the point is that very few people can afford to put together an R system, and even fewer can justify spending that when they can spend a lot less and get a very good Canon system, or spend a bit more and get a superb medium format digital system.
    Anyway, something has to give.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Peter: sounds like you have been cooped up recovering for too long - too much time to think - but it does make perfect sense, at least to me.

    I. too, am suffering from R anxiety but I do not want to unload anything. I hope to be able to use the R lenses I have on a future R10 (or whatever) but I am also trying to accept the possibility that I can use my DMR and lenses for quite some time and still enjoy them. The quality is superb.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Peter: sounds like you have been cooped up recovering for too long - too much time to think - but it does make perfect sense, at least to me.

    I. too, am suffering from R anxiety but I do not want to unload anything. I hope to be able to use the R lenses I have on a future R10 (or whatever) but I am also trying to accept the possibility that I can use my DMR and lenses for quite some time and still enjoy them. The quality is superb.
    Amen

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Stuart - I think you make a lot of sense. It is an impossible ask from Leica to price their lenses so much higher than acceptable alternatives. I bought a new 19mm and an 80 lux to compliment my 35-70 and 70-180. have no interest in any other lenses.

    The pricing on that 15mm is a joke - it isnt better than the LF alternatives from Schneider and Rodenstock - Leica's prices dont make sense in a lot of their offerings...I woild love to buy into their modular tele system - but man I can get awesome autofocus lenses from Canon and now new offerings from Nikon at half the price ...the difference in quality isnt that much greater ( and arguably not there anyway) for my purposes - but more importantly the purposes of the typical pro sports shooter for example...

    If Leica wish to focus entirely on the M camera system - they will die. Doesnt matter how many enthusiasts love the rangefinder - it is just a semi-wide to normal system a snapshooter.

    If they dont make R lenses backwardly compatible..wel they are turning their backs on teh installed client base. If they are chasong a new market - that market can only be overlapping with MFDB - and they come up against pro shooters with MF systems - essentially studio gear ..this is a crowded and relatively small space to comepte in against Hasselblad/Phase One/Mamiya/Leaf/Sinar - all targetting the same bunch of product/studio shooters and a tiny bit of fashion.

    yeah it makes no sense to turn your back on existing cutomers and installed lens base...but I ask myself - why are they being ambiguous and silent on teh compatibility issue regarding glass?

    thats the elephant in the room question.

    Pete

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    My guess is that there are four options --
    1. They are not locked into body yet, so they don't know if there will be compatibility and don't want to say either way.
    2. They have scrapped the R10 and don't want to tell the customers yet so that they can continue to sell their existing lenses.
    3. The new R10 has a new mount that is not compatible with the old lenses.
    4. They are leery about announcing anything in regards to the R10, having learned their lesson about announcing the DMR and not being able to put it in customers' hands until well over a year after its debut. Not to mention the teething problems of the M8, which was released before it was ready for prime time.

    I would lean towards option 2 or 4.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    If they are doing this because of #2 - then the company has no ethics or morals. If it is #4 - thats ok - just say whatever we do whenever we do it..will of course make existing lenses usable.

    I lean towards #3 because of deathly silence, with a dash of #1 because I am an optimist.

    "faith knocked on Hopes door and no-one answered"

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    #2 is extremely common with all companies. No company's financial managers will let them announce that something has been discontinued while there is a bunch of inventory available. Look at Hasselblad -- they had discontinued the 200 series, but did not tell anyone until they more or less sold out, and then they said, "by the way, no more 200 series", they did it with the Xpan, with the 905 SWC and they are doing it now with V system cameras and lenses.

    Didn't Leica do it with the 75/1.4? They came out with the 75/2, presumably stopped making the 75/1.4 and let it sell down, and then a year later or so they announced that it was discontinued. I am not saying they are going to do it with the R system, but it is one of my fears.

    I certainly don't want to give the impression that I know insider information or have any idea what is really going on, these are just my thoughts and fears. I do hope that there will be an R10 at photokina, I am just not as optimistic as I once was.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Stuart - we dont pay the Leica 'premiums' to be lied to do we? I have always regretted selling my Xpan - fixed that last week. Ironicaly, the more I think about things - the better I feel about going back to shooting more film - the technology is proven - all I need is to get my act together and order an Imacon - all of a sudden my lenses in all my platforms behave the way they were designed to behave...and I can stop worrying about the next digital improvement or new model - all of which offer increasingly smaller and at the margin improvements...

    too much internet chatter about this versus that sometimes - and I ( lately) have been sucked in.

    BUT come on HOW DARE THEY NOT TELL US ABOUT OUR LENSES _ HOW DARE THEY!!!!

    so nett nett - I am going to focus on shooting what I have and doing MORE chemotherapy via traditional B&W self souped shooting with 35mm especially.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    On that note, I am off to process the delta 400 that I just shot!

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Total: 29,475 at B&H before tax or shipping. .
    Isn't that about what a medium format digital back costs without any lenses.? I think that is the market Leica is after, along with existing R users, not the EOS and Canon users.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    More in many cases...an H3D-39 is 24,999 at B&H, including the body and 80mm lens. The newer model is more, but the H3DII-31 is 26,999, still less than that Leica kit. Hasselblad lenses are actually cheaper than Leica lenses (most are in the 3000 range, compared to 4500 for Leica), and Mamiya are cheaper still, particularly on the used market. And there are some cheaper medium format digital options like the ZD back and the CFV, which are both actually cheaper than the 15mm Leica lens! But given the choice of a 16-22 MP 35mm sized sensor that will likely be in an R10 versus a 22-39 MP medium format sensor for not much more, it might be hard for some to go with the Leica. As good as the Leica is, at this point it cannot compete with medium format digital, so if they are practically the same outlay, there are problems.

    I guess the point is that if 29,500 gets you a Leica digital setup and 5 lenses and the same money gets you an H3D-39 and 2 lenses (such as the 80mm and the 50-110 zoom), which would you take?

    Anyway, just some late night ramblings, I am off to bed.

  36. #36
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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Has any of you asked the question directly to Stefan Daniel ?

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    .... The newer model is more, but the H3DII-31 is 26,999, still less than that Leica kit.<b> Hasselblad lenses are actually cheaper than Leica lenses </b>(most are in the 3000 range, compared to 4500 for Leica), and Mamiya are cheaper still, particularly on the used market. And there are some cheaper medium format digital options like the ZD back and the CFV, which are both actually cheaper than the 15mm Leica lens! But given the choice of a 16-22 MP 35mm sized sensor that will likely be in an R10 versus a 22-39 MP medium format sensor for not much more, it might be hard for some to go with the Leica. As good as the Leica is, at this point it cannot compete with medium format digital, so if they are practically the same outlay, there are problems.

    I guess the point is that if 29,500 gets you a Leica digital setup and 5 lenses and the same money gets you an H3D-39 and 2 lenses (such as the 80mm and the 50-110 zoom), which would you take?

    Anyway, just some late night ramblings, I am off to bed.
    Exactomundo Stuart - exactly so....EXACTLY!!

    they are in leica Land - a state of non-sensical irrational arrogance if they think a sensor packed with lil itsy bitsy pixels and claiming lots megabytes is going to compete with the IQ if a sensor nearly 2X the size and 1/4 of the pixel density...with a new range of lenses? at prices higher than MF lenses makes me laugh... and angry at same time..

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by pascal_meheut View Post
    Has any of you asked the question directly to Stefan Daniel ?
    Actually, Stefan is the M product manager. Maike Harberts is the R product manager.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Stuart - we dont pay the Leica 'premiums' to be lied to do we? I have always regretted selling my Xpan - fixed that last week. Ironicaly, the more I think about things - the better I feel about going back to shooting more film - the technology is proven - all I need is to get my act together and order an Imacon - all of a sudden my lenses in all my platforms behave the way they were designed to behave...and I can stop worrying about the next digital improvement or new model - all of which offer increasingly smaller and at the margin improvements...

    too much internet chatter about this versus that sometimes - and I ( lately) have been sucked in.

    BUT come on HOW DARE THEY NOT TELL US ABOUT OUR LENSES _ HOW DARE THEY!!!!

    so nett nett - I am going to focus on shooting what I have and doing MORE chemotherapy via traditional B&W self souped shooting with 35mm especially.
    Peter, so true. If I did not have to have digital for business (just about mandatory for a number of reasons), I sure the heck wouldn't be so deep into "Digi-Oz" ... and paying so much attention to the man behind the curtain.

    My nice 203FE and speedy scans from the Imacon 949 would be more than enough. You know, I am in the process of redoing my Wedding Web Site, and about 65% to 70% of the shots I've selected were done on film. That has been a revelation. Don't know why, they just are.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Actually, Stefan is the M product manager. Maike Harberts is the R product manager.
    I sent her an email a few months ago and didn't get a reply.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    My nice 203FE and speedy scans from the Imacon 949 would be more than enough. You know, I am in the process of redoing my Wedding Web Site, and about 65% to 70% of the shots I've selected were done on film. That has been a revelation. Don't know why, they just are.
    Marc,

    I have been going through my own archives sorting everything out into a lightroom database - and I have found the same thing - my film wok supplies a far higher keeper ratio than my digital.


    I need to get that Imacon to scan in a lot of family stuff including printed photographs going back decades and decades - just don know whether I go for the X1 or the big boy - there is quite a price difference..

    Maybe we need an scanner forum - I have noted a few guys use Imacon - but forgot the thread where a lotof useful stuff came out...


    Pete

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Swing for the wall peter.

    I demo'ed the 848 for a couple of months and ended up getting a discounted 949 as Hasselblad rebadged the scanners and blew out remaining Imacon stock.

    The big guy is way faster, but more importantly uses a diffused light source that produces images that look more like optically printed darkroom prints.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    I use the 646 and there are only two things that bother me:
    1. You can't scan mounted slides. A lot of my older stuff is mounted, and you need to take it out to scan it.
    2. Negatives and slides must be absolutely spotless, as the scanner is relentless in picking up the tiny specks and bits of dust on the film.

    So, from what I gather, the 949 solves both of these problems, so if you consistently print very large (and I do mean very large), then it will be worth it. Same goes if you have a large stock of mounted slides.

    When I have scanned 6x6 to print at 30x30 inches, I have found that I spend about 30 minutes to an hour spotting the negative, even with very clean film, so don't underestimate the benefit of a diffused source. For smaller sizes it is much less of an issue.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Thanks for the feedback Mark and Stuart - I will go with the X5.

    Mark - I am looking at buying Son's little blad system in teh FS section I think you have one of these - and woudl appreciate any feedback on your experiences with the system on V cameras.

    Pete

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Mark and Stuart - I will go with the X5.

    Mark - I am looking at buying Son's little blad system in teh FS section I think you have one of these - and woudl appreciate any feedback on your experiences with the system on V cameras.

    Pete
    Peter, I see that Son has sold that kit. Did you buy it?

    I no longer have my digitally converted 203FE & CFV. A guy in England flew here to Michigan to collect it. Selling it had nothing to do with the performance of the kit. It's fabulous.

    Photog pals quip that my gear vault looks like B&H ... LOL. I am to much of a pack rat, and am now consolidating my systems. I also sold my Aptus 75s/Mamiya to Jim Collum, and am about to sell even more.

    I still have a brand new 203FE (1 year old), and near full set of FE glass (50/2.8FE up to 250/4FE) plus some E type film backs. I have often shot film with this kit and scan it on the 949.

    I also still have a complete 2 camera 503CW kit, Fisheye to 350mm, 3 flashes and a zillion accessories ... AND a full Mamiya RZ Pro-II kit with fisheye to 210APO along with another zillion accessories.

    And this is just the MF stuff.

    I am concentrating on the H3D system and Rollei Xact-II view camera with lens range Rodenstock 28/2.8 Digitar to 120/5.6 Digitar + some conventional view lenses for effect.

    Folk should keep an eye out for my F/S post in the coming weeks. I post here before anywhere else to give my forum pals first crack at mint gear.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    No Mark I didnt buy Son's kit. I sold my canon glass kept the 1dsmk11 as a Leica lens back-up to DMR as I really dont expect that my R lenses are going to be made compatible with the new Leica R camera - IF /When it comes out.

    You have a private message re your gear.
    Last edited by PeterA; 3rd April 2008 at 01:44. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Not to be ominous, but I am in the same boat...I have tallied up the value of my Leica R stuff, along with various other things that I am not using as much anymore, and the total was sobering. I will probably post a F/S posting with some serious kit in the next few days or so. DMR, 19mm, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 180/2.8 apo, R6, maybe even the 28-90 and 100apo, though I am sentimental about them...other things will be in there like an M-hexanon 50/1.2, 28 elmarit M, probably the 75/2 apo, a rollei TLR, a Leica Motor M, the R8 motor drive, Leicavit M...the list goes on...

    I suspect this might elicit a flurry of PM's, but I am not totally ready to do this yet, so please don't get excited. I might not be able to respond right away.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    am I right that R lanses can be used on some of the lux vlux cameras?

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I really dont expect that my R lenses are going to be made compatible with the new Leica R camera
    I don't understand the pessimism, Peter. Leica has stated on several occasions that a new reflex camera replacing the R9 is in development, and Leica has an exceptional track record of lens compatability.

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    Re: Leica R looking forward

    Yesterday as I was in Southampton with an hour or so spare, I decided to visit a pro Photographic show put on by a UK chain of Photographic dealers.

    No Leica cameras of course as I have come to expect now but Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax and Sony all had manufacturer's sales teams with products to try.

    I liked the Nikon D3.......but boy was it heavy after my R9/DMR and every lens seemed to have a "gritty" zoom ring. I do like the results but I really couldn't change from the DMR. I have never liked Canon lenses so I didn't even bother to look there. I really loved the light weight and handling of the OLY E-3 and their better lenses felt as well made as my R lenses. Just not so sure that I could contemplate going down to such a small sensor size. The 2x crop could be useful for wildlife photography though! R lenses will also fit the E-3 with an adaptor. I was also surprised to find that the pro OLY lenses are just as expensive as Leica's.

    All in all I will stay with my DMR, I just love the handling, ease of sensor cleaning and of course those beautiful lenses. I shall just try to be patient and see what Leica have to say about the future of the R series at Photokina.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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