M8 - Problem with Leica & Phase One software instalation

[simonpg]

Well I am now a proud owner of a nice M8. My first impressions is that it is a superb piece of equipment and very worthy of sitting beside my M7.

BUT, having just received it yesterday I am trying to install the Leica and Phase One software...... VERY UNSUCCESSFULLY though!

I am running Mac OS X (10.5).

The Leica software installed fine and then was updated on-line. BUT, EVERY TIME I TRY TO RUN IT - I just get a message like "error failure". After about 20 attempts I gave up.

Then I tried to install Phase One and it would not even execute the "Install" program. I tried all sorts of ways to no effect!

Then after a few test shots I connected the M8 to the Apple thinking maybe the Leica software wants the camera loaded before it runs. That was worse. First after I connected the M8, Apple shot up an error message saying "no camera connected"!!! The software also failed to run.

Then I decided to try the software on a PC I have on loan. It runs Windows XP Professional.

The Leica software AND Phase One both installed perfectly well. They also run very well!!

BUT I WILL NOT BUY A PC!

HAS ANYONE EXPERIENCED THIS PROBLEM; HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS???

Finally, it made me think anyway that I might just be better off buying Adobe Lightroom - can handle processing DNG RAW and my Canon RAW as well!! Then all my RAW processing is done in the one place. I think that is the case.

IS ANYONE SIMPLY USING LIGHTROOM FOR RAW AS WELL AS IMAGE MANAGEMENT?

DO YOU THINK LIGHTROOM IS AN OPTIMAL WAY TO GO?

I use PS Elements as it has all the editing features I need.

Many thanks for your time and help.

PS: By the way, despite the problems in Mac OS, I did launch iPhoto and guess what - it opened all the files (RAW and JPEG) without a hitch! And that software is free!

 

[GrahamWelland]

Did you download and install Capture One 4 or 5 or use the version shipping on the CD in the box? If you used the CD version then you've just found out that it doesn't work on Leopard! I would go to the Phase One site and download Capture One LE v4 and use your Leica/Phase One serial number to install it. You'll be much happier. :thumbup:

 

[simonpg]

Many thanks Graham.

I am unsure about the version, but it was the original disk shipped with the camera, so I will do as you suggest.

By the way though, I was aware 10.6 (snow leopard) had compatability issues, but not version 10.5 (leopard) - thanks for the tip.

I noticed the envelopes the disks were in had just the one "serial number" sticker - I gather that is the code to use when downloading the updated version from Phase One.

Do you think the Phase One software is particularly good?

 

[GrahamWelland]

Get the latest 4.x version and it will install on both 10.5 & 10.6. v5 requires a paid upgrade from the LE license key for Leica.

Is Capture One good? Personally I think it's by FAR the best converter for Leica files, although Aperture does a pretty good job too. I'm not much of a fan of Adobe's raw attempts although I confess that I haven't tried the latest LR beta/2.5 version which I understand is much better than before.

 

[fotografz]

Get the latest 4.x version and it will install on both 10.5 & 10.6. v5 requires a paid upgrade from the LE license key for Leica.

Is Capture One good? Personally I think it's by FAR the best converter for Leica files, although Aperture does a pretty good job too. I'm not much of a fan of Adobe's raw attempts although I confess that I haven't tried the latest LR beta/2.5 version which I understand is much better than before.

Do you mean Lightroom 3 Beta Graham?

That IS a much better version of Lightroom for M8 and M9 files IMO, and should only get better once finalized and optimized.

Simon, LR Beta 3 is a Free download on the Adobe site, so it would cost you nothing to try it out.

You should also know that C1 Pro will also process your Canon files.

The virtues of C1 are well documented. It is a very powerful RAW converter with the ability to include customized profiles.

However, I am a fan of Lightroom because it offers more versatility for cataloging work, and for non-destructive manipulation at the RAW stage of processing.

The tools in Lightroom have become so sophisticated that most images need no further work in Photoshop unless you want to work in layers, or desire certain special effects like stitching. Even then, unlike any other RAW processor, you can simply open the file directly from LR into Photoshop and then save it as a version back into the LR library in a simple and seamless operation.

So it depends on your workflow needs and end objectives.

I have C1 Pro, Lightroom 2 and Beta 3, and Aperture on my Mac running OSX 10.5.8, and all of them work well ... I won't be going to Snow Leopard anytime soon.

-Marc

 

[docmoore]

I have C1 Pro, Lightroom 2 and Beta 3, and Aperture on my Mac running OSX 10.5.8, and all of them work well ... I won't be going to Snow Leopard anytime soon.

-Marc

I have C1 Pro 5.0.1, LR 2 and 3 Beta, Phocus 1.2.1, Flexcolor 4.8.8, DXO 5.3.6, and NX2 2.2.0 running on Snow Leopard...only NX2 2.2.2 needs a slight workaround to open files but then runs fine.

I do think that the SL problems have been very small and at this point are fairly well delineated and for the most part corrected. It was a very nice upgrade on this end.

Bob

 

[wilsonlaidlaw]

I have C1 Pro 5.0.1, LR 2 and 3 Beta, Phocus 1.2.1, Flexcolor 4.8.8, DXO 5.3.6, and NX2 2.2.0 running on Snow Leopard...only NX2 2.2.2 needs a slight workaround to open files but then runs fine.

I do think that the SL problems have been very small and at this point are fairly well delineated and for the most part corrected. It was a very nice upgrade on this end.

Bob

Sadly for many of us, Snow Leopard is proving a nightmare, with finder locking up, giving error 10810 every time a machine wakes, if it has an external HD attached. Apple have no cure at the moment for the thousands of us suffering this problem. I have been sending Apple Capture Data files to try and run down the exact cause of the problem, which is a conflict in the cocoa coreservices with some unidentified piece of code or software.

As far as Capture One is concerned. make sure you delete any .col files relating Capture One and the plist files in user/library/preferences/phase onexxxx.plist before reinstalling a later version.

Wilson

 

[docmoore]

Truly sorry to hear that...first I have heard of it.

My first G5 tower had a bad processor...one of the two...and I had kernel panics constantly. Apple fixed it and on second Intel machine not a problem yet.

I do hope that they clear this soon for you.

Regards,

Bob

 

[simonpg]

Many thanks to you all for sharing your experiences and knowledge. It's a great help especially since my quad core iMac (replacement of the original delivery that arrived with a nastly stress crack in the 27" screen!!) is scheduled to arrive within 3 days.

Marc your comments about LR are a great help thanks. I'll try the Beta 3 download and see how I go.

Your specific reference to it covering editing needs to a considerable extent are exactly similar to my needs. (PS that Planar 100 is a JOY!!! )

It seems LR is more comprehensive that v1. But the simplicity of just one program that allows multiple RAW file types' conversion; primary editing functions and workflow plus library management, is what I'm hoping to go with. So, it seems a good place to start. Then should my editing needs increase I can just bolt on PS.

My digital needs will be fully met by the Canon DSLR and the M8 (which so far is proving to be a real treat!).

One question for all using Aperture - how effective do you feel it is? I've rarely seen user comments. Is it as comprehensive in editing as PS?

 

[GrahamWelland]

One question for all using Aperture - how effective do you feel it is? I've rarely seen user comments. Is it as comprehensive in editing as PS?

The best comparison for Aperture would be to Lightroom as opposed to Photoshop. In that respect it is very similar and for Mac workflow it is a nice system, particularly if you have a decent Mac with fast graphics card (it'll use the GPU). One thing that I've enjoyed using with Aperture is the ease of publishing images to the web and also working through large numbers of images quickly. The image editing tools are oriented around photographic priorities such as dust spot removal, white balance, colour, crop & rotates etc etc.

Is Aperture better/preferable to Lightroom? I think this is akin to a BMW/Lexus, Ford/Chevy, comparison. Both do the job and in most aspects are identical.

 

[simonpg]

Thanks Graham.

By the way, I am having NO luck with Capture One - Phase One. The web site has the Mac OS archived versions of the software OK - V4.1.1 seems the LE (no charge version).

I've tried numerous times, but all the site asks for is a login name (email address) and then allows you the choice of 2 servers (US and EU - God only knows why). No matter what I select the download does not progress!

Seems consistent with their software that came with the camera!!

Any ideas?

 

[simonpg]

IT'S OK!!

Just tried again and seems there must have been a server issue past 12 hours! V4.1.1 has loaded and runs ok.

Many thanks for your help and information.

Cheers.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Glad to hear that you are up and running, despite Phase One's best efforts! :thumbup:

 

[simonpg]

Many thanks Graham.

BUT I SPOKE TOO SOON!!!

While it downloaded ok and runs, it does not allow you to edit images!! Then I got an email many hours later saying: "thanks... you have to activate...".

They gave me an activation number. So, I followed the site instructions (obviously the screens were written by stupid human-less techos!!) and nothing happened because the only options on the page they took me to were for hardware, lenses and backs!!!

Then I noticed on a site page a comment like "downloading/activating Capture One" - the first ever reference I saw to Capture One itself. So I followed that page myself and got what looked to be the PERFECT activation page.

I completed the Capture One software key info and my registration info and BINGO.... I got an error message: "Server is either down or it has been moved" after trying many times I gave up.

I also checked their FAQ area, which confirmed I found the correct page and used it correctly - despite their error message!

So, in the end I did 2 things:
1. I sent support a nasty email telling them how difficult they make things for a damn give-away product to legitimate 3rd party camera users who might then upgrade to their higher end software; their web site language is confusing and assumes we are all techos.

2. In desparation, I thought I wonder of my new iMac quad4 running SL with iPhoto09 preinstalled will let me see and edit DNG images.

Bingo - iPhoto 09 does read RAW and has a lovely editing and conversion feature. I did some of my test shots with great results.

So much for damn Phase One and its overcomplicated customer processes and user unfriendly software!

If you have any more tips I'd be keen to hear them - I see Capture One is probably more comprehensive for RAW files and may even have cleverer algorithms that can produce better results. The features on the software seem very comprehensive.

Thanks for the help.

 

[simonpg]

Well I have discovered the answer to all the problems I have had with updating v3x to v4.1.1 - Phase One have advised me that I have no right to use Capture One that came bundled with my M8!! :angry:

In their view when you buy a used M8 you do not get to keep the bundled Capture One software at all and my Key has been locked out for that reason - saying that once sold a subsequent buyer does not get to take over the licence Key.

Have others here run into this or have I got a badly trained "support" guru?

Well that is a first. In MHO, it was bundled with the M8 and Leica sold the M8 as a bundle and therefore when the camera changes hands so too does the software along with the camera - albeit under the same user licence agreement conditions.

So, in summary Phase One seems to be saying that they get to charge every subsequent owne an additional licence fee - they charge for the same licence key again and again. :cussing:

Well I think that would be a rip off. When I sold my Canon EOS 1v (yes even a film camera) the computer software went with it and the new owner registered as the new owner and gets software upgrades etc. Canoin recognises it has been paid for that licence. And Phase One.....!

I wonder if Leica knows this is Phase One's policy and that it pi...s of customers - their software partner seems to double dip? :lecture:

So, as far as I am concerned Phase One's offer to sell me V4x or V5 is out of the question. If I spend my hard earned money it will be with a supplier that acts fairly!

So WHAT DO M8 OWNERS FEEL IS THE OPTIMAL ALTERNATIVE, BEARING IN MIND I HAVE A CANON DSLR - MIGHT AS WELL BE SURE THE ONE PACKAGE CAN HANDLE DNG AND CANON RAW AND IMAGE LIBRARY MANAGEMENT?

 

[robsteve]

Simon:

It sounds like the previous owner of the M8 registered the C1 software. If you bought directly from that owner, they may be able to arrange a license transfer with Phase One so you can use the software.

It is really no different than buying a used computer with Photoshop on it. Just that the software came on the computer, doesn't mean you are licensed to use it or buy upgrades for it.

In the case of the Canon software or the Phase software with a Phase back, your license key is the camera you own and some features of the camera do not work without it.

Robert

 

[simonpg]

Yes Robert this is what happened.

BUT, the impact is the same for both Pase One and me. All they need to do is substitute my name rather than carry on like greedy uncooperative mongrels that feel customer service is all about simply being uncooperative.

The key is the one licenece copy and like the body, it changed hands just like all other software/hardware bundles. It's an industry standard practice.

At this point they have quite successfully communicated to me how they view customers.

In fact in the M8 case Leica was the paying customer - no first owner sent money to Phase One! So after I draw this to senior Leica management's attention, I'll be interested to see the reaction.

While I may be an Australin, we do have schools and universities and the ability to read and write and I for one have never allowed a supplier disadvantage me with unreasonable intractible indefensible "policies" - in the end what matters is whatever is a fair thing!

When they saw the first owner transfered all rights to the camera, accessories and software disks and licences, which is evidenced by a commercial invoice, all they had to say was: "Sure, we'll just transfer registration in our system to you". It is the seller who now has no rights to the software / licence etc.. Maybe then I'd take a peek at V5Pro and decide its a professional company with a good product, so sure I'll spend my hard earned money with them. Is it even remotely likely that will happen now? :thumbdown:

Like someone once said: "When you are not sure what to do, just do the right thing".

 

[stephengilbert]

Simon,

After Phase One "substitutes your name" for the prior owner's, how to they get him to stop using the program? I don't think it's unreasonable for them to refuse to allow a second person to activate the software unless the prior owner has deactivated it first.

Presumably, the fellow who sold you the camera registered the software and can still use it. Ask him to deactivate it. If Phase won't allow you to use the code then, you'll have a complaint. Otherwise, I don't think you do.

SG

 

[fotografz]

Simon, take a deep breath my friend, this C1 snafu is sucking all the fun out of having purchased a M8.

Phase One has chosen to also be in the software business beyond a proprietary application to their digital backs ... their usage policies are what they are, and have never been a secret. They monitor the use of their software closely, whether transfers, or usage on multiple computers by a single owner. IMO, Stephen has offered a reasonable path of action IF the former owner of the M8 is willing to de-activate it on his/her computer ... once you arrange to activate it, the former owner won't be able to re-activate and use it even if it's on his computer.

IMO (strictly IMO), while I have C1-Pro v-5 on my computer, I never use it for Leica M8 or M9 files. To my knowledge either does my pal Irakly who is one of the best M8 shooters I know. :thumbup: We both use Light Room. I have some M8 Presets loaded, but I do not think Irakly even uses presets ... just Lightroom as is.

You are such a long time e-friend over the years, I would be quite willing to guide you through effective use of LR. :salute:

-Marc

 

[simonpg]

Thanks guys - fair points, I admit. :salute:

I think what really steamed me up was the convoluted process on line - and then I ran into their licence policy - the straw that broke the camel's back. It really is far too convoluted a process to protect their IP of a limited product they bundle with hardware manufacturers.

Anyway, I'm up and running.

I also must say that Robert at Precision Camera has been the most wonderfully helpful man in all manner of ways. He certainly presents a great face for that company. I make the compliment here because they are very well deserved - for that reason alone.

Marc, my friend, your comments are always valuable. As I get experience I will then investigate Lightroom's functionality. Thanks for your offer, which I'll gratefully take up if/when I go that way.

[PS: And Marc that CFi Planar 100mm is a true treasure and its condition a credit to you! It cannot be easy for pros to treat such gear as well as you do.]

And yes, just like you said, I must not let the annoyance of the software overshadow using the M8. I'm enjoying it greatly. So far I am delighted with the image quality and its "look".

I think the designers generally well achieved their M-camera form/functionality objectives. It's easy to be picky about small things, but overall it is a delight to use and now I'll closely examine the images and learn how to get the best out of the files.

Probably the most obvious (to me at this stage) "comparative" weak point is the shutter button - far "rougher" and a bit less "exact" as that on my M7. If it is a more conventional electronic type of mechanism, this may explain it. But it is really simply a matter of getting used to it.

Again thanks to all here who've assisted my learning curve so kindly.