M8 or MF?

[LJL]

Great stuff, Jono, and exactly what I am talking about. Some folks "look to shoot". That drives a lot of work for many, including most of the stuff pro photogs do all the time. They go out with an idea or assignment or requirement and do whatever it takes to bring back something acceptable. The "shooting to find something" part is more about releasing the artistic expression. You are already doing that wonderfully, so enjoy it. The mortar and pestle you present could be conceived and arranged and lit by somebody looking to shoot. Might not be you nor me at first blush, but there are many superb shooters out their that do this, and a lot of them get into the MF world just to do it more or better. There is a pronounced artistic expression, and it may take days to achieve for some.

My comments were more about how folks can spend their time looking for that artistic expression or style or whatever one wants to call it. That is a discovery process, if you are not more naturally blessed with it. I think that is where many struggle the most. They have seen beauty/art and they want to do the same. Sometimes tools can help, but not if one gets caught up in the gear and mechanics before they have the mental image of what they want.

The M8 is a bit more unique in some ways. It is a tool that can get out of your way enough to be more expressive, or it can be used more purposefully to deliver the art. One could say all cameras are like this, but I am not sure they are. Marc's points about being one with the tool help a lot. Could a MFDB have taken your shot any better? Maybe not, but if that shot were planned and thought out, it would be impressive is some other and maybe subtle ways. Not criticizing or anything like that. My interests, and what I have expressed to "nostatic" reflect some of my own decision process. Moving from casual to purposeful creation of art. All of it is good, and that is why I think both tools have their place. Not needed by everyone, or all the time, but it sure is nice to see them both come into harmony and create some wonderful stuff.

LJ

 

[jonoslack]

Great stuff, Jono, and exactly what I am talking about. Some folks "look to shoot". That drives a lot of work for many, including most of the stuff pro photogs do all the time. They go out with an idea or assignment or requirement and do whatever it takes to bring back something acceptable. The "shooting to find something" part is more about releasing the artistic expression. You are already doing that wonderfully, so enjoy it. The mortar and pestle you present could be conceived and arranged and lit by somebody looking to shoot. Might not be you nor me at first blush, but there are many superb shooters out their that do this, and a lot of them get into the MF world just to do it more or better. There is a pronounced artistic expression, and it may take days to achieve for some.

My comments were more about how folks can spend their time looking for that artistic expression or style or whatever one wants to call it. That is a discovery process, if you are not more naturally blessed with it. I think that is where many struggle the most. They have seen beauty/art and they want to do the same. Sometimes tools can help, but not if one gets caught up in the gear and mechanics before they have the mental image of what they want.

The M8 is a bit more unique in some ways. It is a tool that can get out of your way enough to be more expressive, or it can be used more purposefully to deliver the art. One could say all cameras are like this, but I am not sure they are. Marc's points about being one with the tool help a lot. Could a MFDB have taken your shot any better? Maybe not, but if that shot were planned and thought out, it would be impressive is some other and maybe subtle ways.

Of course I take your point here, and this photo could certainly be better - but first you would have to have thought of it, and this is my point: nobody 'thought of it' it simply existed, in all it's complexity/unsatisfactoryness; I just decided to catch it. Incidentally, it was sunlight through a window, and it was gone in seconds.

My interests, and what I have expressed to "nostatic" reflect some of my own decision process. Moving from casual to purposeful creation of art. All of it is good, and that is why I think both tools have their place. Not needed by everyone, or all the time, but it sure is nice to see them both come into harmony and create some wonderful stuff.

LJ

Well, perhaps casual is an unfortunate word, I think that one can shoot detail/landscape/still life in much the same was as one shoots street. One get's glancing impressions, some of which can be very powerful, but they really are ephemeral; grab them or they're gone, not just the subject, but the impression.

For me this is where photography really comes into it's own - as a means of capturing the ephemeral, unpredictable moments of life. If I'm going to lug around a xkg camera and tripod I'm only fit to take pictures of what I've preconceived (and compared to the multiplicity of chance my preconceptions are pretty lame!).

 

[LJL]

Jono,
Great mortar and pestle shot!
-bob

nothing to do with your picture, but I wonder what screen they use on billboards?

Bob,
Depending on the size, location and viewing distance, the screening can be very, very coarse.....like 4dpi or less. So, although high res files are always sought for that kind of commercial display, one can get pretty far with lower res files, depending upon the use, and there are some very effective tools that can up-res things quite nicely to help the process along.

LJ

 

[LJL]

Jono,
Your points are well taken, and I was not disputing what you were saying, nor criticizing what you presented. Quite the contrary. It is this sort of imagery that fills the corners of the mind for folks that do go out to shoot this kind of stuff on purpose. You are absolutely correct....the moment was there, the image came into view, you captured it splendidly. This sort of stuff feeds the creative soul of folks like me. It helps with that purposeful creation part at some later date.....I hope ;-)

When I said "casual", it was not meant in a disparaging way at all, and yes, it may be the unfortunate word. I probably should have used spontaneous or opportunistic or aware, or something more apropos. I completely agree with you that carrying around a huge, heavy rig is not fun. This is exactly why I stopped using my big Canon cameras for anything other than planned shooting, and why I carry the M8 everywhere. I have gone back to places to shoot things I first "discovered" with the M8, and yes, it is never that exact moment or set of conditions, but the idea was enough to encourage recreating things for another use. That is the best of both worlds for me.

LJ

 

[jonoslack]

Jono,
Your points are well taken, and I was not disputing what you were saying, nor criticizing what you presented. Quite the contrary. It is this sort of imagery that fills the corners of the mind for folks that do go out to shoot this kind of stuff on purpose. You are absolutely correct....the moment was there, the image came into view, you captured it splendidly. This sort of stuff feeds the creative soul of folks like me. It helps with that purposeful creation part at some later date.....I hope ;-)

When I said "casual", it was not meant in a disparaging way at all, and yes, it may be the unfortunate word. I probably should have used spontaneous or opportunistic or aware, or something more apropos. I completely agree with you that carrying around a huge, heavy rig is not fun. This is exactly why I stopped using my big Canon cameras for anything other than planned shooting, and why I carry the M8 everywhere. I have gone back to places to shoot things I first "discovered" with the M8, and yes, it is never that exact moment or set of conditions, but the idea was enough to encourage recreating things for another use. That is the best of both worlds for me.

LJ

:salute:

I didn't feel disparaged, although I do prefer spontaneous to casual. I also understand the idea of going back and formalising a 'discovered' idea at a later date, and of course, it reflects on my skill and determination that on the occasions I've tried this the result never quite has the zing of the original.

If I wanted to be less self deprecating, then of course I could own up to the fact that I go back to previous revelations and look for new ones, and that of course they do appear. What I haven't yet done is to invest in an MF digital and gone about it a bit more deliberately. Partly because I'm lazy, and partly because I have a suspicion that the more effort I put in the more subtlety I lose.

Mind you, it's very tempting, there are days I think I'll ditch all kit and simply get myself an MF kit and try harder!

 

[fotografz]

How you use most any camera depends on your mind-set and how deeply you have involved yourself with the gear.

I shoot street stuff with MF all the time ... even though I have an M8. MF is just different. I like "different" because it offers a new perspective. However, I've been using a MF camera for all kinds of work not usually associated with it for decades.

I think the M8 is great. The files are very nice. They are NOT MF quality. It's not opinion, just physics. Big file right out of the camera (see Hand held MF shot below).

That said, my advice for what you want to do would be to get the M8.

 

[ChrisDauer]

Wow! Great shots and great info! Thanks for sharing!
This is why I spend time in these forums!

 

[nostatic]

I was reading the thread in the MF forum...that is part of what prompted my most recent inquiry into other formats. It's funny because this place is what pushed me towards the M8 via the small sensor forum, so one never knows where the inspiration and bad influences (wrt budget) will come.

I need to go handle an M8 and see how it feels. My hunch is that like other various creative tools I use, I'll either feel it or I won't. The variable though is that sometimes there is a certain curve that needs to be scaled in order to really understand wtf is going on.

 

[jonoslack]

I was reading the thread in the MF forum...that is part of what prompted my most recent inquiry into other formats. It's funny because this place is what pushed me towards the M8 via the small sensor forum, so one never knows where the inspiration and bad influences (wrt budget) will come.

I need to go handle an M8 and see how it feels. My hunch is that like other various creative tools I use, I'll either feel it or I won't. The variable though is that sometimes there is a certain curve that needs to be scaled in order to really understand wtf is going on.

I couldn't agree more - most of the cameras available now take good pictures, but I work best when I'm comfortable with what I'm shooting.

Good luck with your quest!

 

[woodyspedden]

I couldn't agree more - most of the cameras available now take good pictures, but I work best when I'm comfortable with what I'm shooting.

Good luck with your quest!

I have recently gone back to shooting my Mamiya 7II, a system with a 43mm lens which is as good as it gets IMHO. I decided to do this with film to do a sanity check before even imagining paying upwards of $25K for a digital back. I loved working with the 7II and am sure the 645AFD II would be a trip but damn, this is an expensive experiment so I am going work 6x7 film for awhile and see how the results compare to my 35mm digital work before plunking down such serious cash.

Any advice from you much more experienced folks would be welcomed for sure.

Best

Woody

 

[nostatic]

I"m certainly in the "shoot what I find" camp. I don't light anything, or set anything up. Almost all my shots are things I stumble across while wandering around. Just whatever strikes my fancy. That being said, I will sometimes get a spontaneous "series" that comes out. For instance I was in Yosemite the past few days. While I took the obligatory "falls" shots (hard to not be cliche), maybe my favorite was a bunch of shots taken in the tunnel while driving (Pentax K20d):

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I was reading the thread in the MF forum...that is part of what prompted my most recent inquiry into other formats. It's funny because this place is what pushed me towards the M8 via the small sensor forum, so one never knows where the inspiration and bad influences (wrt budget) will come.

I need to go handle an M8 and see how it feels. My hunch is that like other various creative tools I use, I'll either feel it or I won't. The variable though is that sometimes there is a certain curve that needs to be scaled in order to really understand wtf is going on.

That's exactly what you need to do and did myself before the M8 came out I went to a local store and just played with a M6 and 7 to get the feel of it, I was hooked on it fast. If it is not there with feel than you will know it immediately. It either works in your head or does not.

Honestly no camera is worth a damn if you can't wrap your head around it first with feel and comfort.

 

[pss]

i switched from a mamiya RZ, 465afdII phase P30 kit to the m8 about 5 months ago..actually i bought an m8 and then sold the MF kit....and bought another m8 and more lenses....i am in no way saying that the m8 is equal to a P30....but up to a 11x14 i have a really hard time telling the difference...and shooting, focus, handling, speed,....i notice a BIG difference....
i have owned and used pretty much everything analog and digital...nikons, fujis, sigma, canons (incl dsmkII), kodak (14n anyone?), to leaf valeo and phase P20 and P30....i was always frustrated with dslrs and i mostly blamed that on lenses and pixel depth (lack of shadow detail)....from my experience 10mpix is a sweetspot from which good files can be interpolated up to almost everything...for commercial use....for a fine art 30x40 print...get the P45 or even better get an 8x10.....
i never really liked the canon files and the ZD back to me is very similar...a lot of pixels, but something missing....i would look into a P20 (or even better a P21) instead of a ZD....16bit, much better higher iso...the pixel count is not everything....
the m8 files somehow remind me of mini phase files (which i guess they are, kodak ccds) but the m8 handles mixed light (natural plus flash) better then any other camera...
there are plenty of drawbacks to the m8 and if you can't deal with RF, just forget it altogether....
i really, really like the camera...supersmall, light, shoots fast (enough for me, but then again i am still used to phase backs)...so far i only have CV lenses which just make me laugh every time i buy one...just got the 15...amazing!.....also bought a ton of SD cards, so i have every shoot on the computer and on the cards until i transfer the files to my array....
just shot a double spread b&w beauty ad...the file was cropped!
i don't do sports and i never print larger then 16x20 (although i just made a fun 16x30 print from 3 m8 files, stitched from 3 horizontals...uprezzed in GF...simply amazing....) for my work i never need more then double spread and the 10mpix file can easily handle that and billboard have fist sized dots anyway....
just my experience...i am sure everybody wants to find out for themselves and everybody has different needs....

 

[jonoslack]

i switched from a mamiya RZ, 465afdII phase P30 kit to the m8 about 5 months ago..actually i bought an m8 and then sold the MF kit....and bought another m8 and more lenses....i am in no way saying that the m8 is equal to a P30....but up to a 11x14 i have a really hard time telling the difference...and shooting, focus, handling, speed,....i notice a BIG difference....
i have owned and used pretty much everything analog and digital...nikons, fujis, sigma, canons (incl dsmkII), kodak (14n anyone?), to leaf valeo and phase P20 and P30....i was always frustrated with dslrs and i mostly blamed that on lenses and pixel depth (lack of shadow detail)....from my experience 10mpix is a sweetspot from which good files can be interpolated up to almost everything...for commercial use....for a fine art 30x40 print...get the P45 or even better get an 8x10.....

Thank you - you've just given me a reality check and saved me a great deal of money!
AS for the 14n - yes, loved it; I did beta testing on the firmware with Kodak, it was all exciting and fun (Italian flags, moire and all).

I was contemplating going for a ZD back, but I also love my M8 files, and they print fine up to A2 (and probably larger).
What was I thinking of!

 

[Jack]

but up to a 11x14 i have a really hard time telling the difference...and shooting, focus, handling, speed,....i notice a BIG difference....

....for a fine art 30x40 print...get the P45 or even better get an 8x10.....
i never really liked the canon files and the ZD back to me is very similar...a lot of pixels, but something missing....

Agree on the print sizes, disagree on the pixels To my eye, the ZD back is just like having 2 M8 sensors side-by-side, only greater dynamic range and better overall tonlity...

FWIW, the M8's and the Mamiya are the only two systems I have now, Canon is all gone. (And I do NOT miss it!)

Cheers,

 

[LJL]

Jono and pss,
Like you guys, I have decided to pause for a bit in my MF thinking/quest. It was the M8 that started to "drive" me to looking for that more unique capture and output in the first place, and MF seemed like the most logical step from there. I still think that to be the case, but until I can get all the confusion (both in my own mind and among the myriad of MF offerings) settled a bit more, no point in plunging in just yet.

There is something about the more 3D look and feel coming from the M8 and that is so much more intense in some of the MF renderings. That has been very hard to reproduce with my Canon files, even with great glass. It may be the shadow details, the DR, the characteristics of the lenses, other things, and all of the above. Whatever it is, it is very pleasing, hence my quest for that next level of delivery in MF. I still think it to be worth pursuing, but the MF landscape is still more uncertain and at time daunting to figure out.

Jono, like you, I started to consider the ZD as an excellent starter/re-entry point. And like pss has said, the files just do not seem all that exciting....at least compared to other backs. I am sure folks will differ and argue that point, but my observations are not convincing me that my 1DsMkII cannot deliver something very similar already for most uses, and neither seem to have that same look of the M8 at this point. Not talking only about resolution and number of pixels, but about all those other things that come into play additionally.

LJ

 

[fotografz]

Agree on the print sizes, disagree on the pixels To my eye, the ZD back is just like having 2 M8 sensors side-by-side, only greater dynamic range and better overall tonality...

FWIW, the M8's and the Mamiya are the only two systems I have now, Canon is all gone. (And I do NOT miss it!)

Cheers,

Sadly, I still use Canon ... I just need that AF speed and ISO 1600 to 3200 from time-to-time. Have 2 M8s also ... and MF back. Have to agree with Jack here ... dynamic range and tonal gradations are noticeably better with the MF backs. I can see it in an 8x10 let alone a 30X40. Plus, I love being able to crop with little to no penalty. But, to each his or her own.

 

[LJL]

Agree on the print sizes, disagree on the pixels To my eye, the ZD back is just like having 2 M8 sensors side-by-side, only greater dynamic range and better overall tonlity...

FWIW, the M8's and the Mamiya are the only two systems I have now, Canon is all gone. (And I do NOT miss it!)

Cheers,

Jack,
What you are describing is how I started to look at things also, with respect to ditching the Canon gear and going M8 and MF. I still think that is going to happen at some point not too far away for me. However, even though the Mamiya glass is quite good, and the AFDII body may work, I am not sure that the ZD back would be my preference. Yes, the files are bigger and better than the 1DsMkII and maybe the MkIII also, but they still do not have the depth and other things that I have seen from other backs like the P45+. Sure, that is a lot more pixels and stuff, and it should deliver more....and it does. Not putting the ZD back down, as I do think it would can deliver a lot of very good stuff. My personal feelings are that if/when I make the jump, my expectations may be for more than it will deliver. I may be totally wrong and crazy about this, but that is my wrestling match at this point ;-)

I think your choices and reasons are very good, and I have seriously considered doing the same myself. I still may, but I can already see the desire to move to an even higher performing back, so I may just do that jump instead of hopping the ZD first. (I am still liking the H3D system also, and that is partly what is causing me some pause.....I need to get my thoughts around that more.)

LJ

 

[LJL]

Sadly, I still use Canon ... I just need that AF speed and ISO 1600 to 3200 from time-to-time. Have 2 M8s also ... and MF back. Have to agree with Jack here ... dynamic range and tonal gradations are noticeably better with the MF backs. I can see it in an 8x10 let alone a 30X40. Plus, I love being able to crop with little to no penalty. But, to each his or her own.

Marc,
That is mainly why I have not yet abandoned my Canon gear.....there are still things it does that nothing else quite can at this point. I agree with you and Jack about the look in prints, and that is what I am driving toward myself. I do think that MF is the thing that will deliver on that best, but not yet for some of those things I still am shooting, so the big Canon has to hang around for them. Oh to have the MF start hitting those higher ISOs as cleanly but without losing the details, and to have more of the handling of some of the DSLRs for AF and speed. Nirvana.

LJ

 

[Jack]

Sadly, I still use Canon ... I just need that AF speed and ISO 1600 to 3200 from time-to-time. Have 2 M8s also ... and MF back. Have to agree with Jack here ... dynamic range and tonal gradations are noticeably better with the MF backs. I can see it in an 8x10 let alone a 30X40. Plus, I love being able to crop with little to no penalty. But, to each his or her own.

Marc, if I shot everything you shoot, I would still own all my Canon gear and then some too and probably the 1Ds3 to boot, and for all the same reasons you still have yours...

,