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Thread: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

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    Super Duper
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    X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    They posted their full review here:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/LeicaX1/

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Hi Terry,

    Thanks for posting this.

    In fact, this beast is the first Leica that really attracts me and hopefully
    will soon complement my MF combo which i typically don't carry with
    me all day.

    Have a good weekend
    Ralf.

  3. #3
    Super Duper
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    A compelling argument for the E-P1, E-P2, and GF1.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    A compelling argument for the E-P1, E-P2, and GF1.
    I would say it is and is not. Their simple equation of the X1's superior high iso performance plus slower lens does not beat faster lens plus inferior iso performance of mft is not always true. If high iso is needed to keep shutter speed up whilst maintaining a min dof at the same time, the X1 wins.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Of course, ISO performance is only one factor. There are many others that make those three cameras compelling vs. the X1, even leaving price out of the equation.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    This review confirms, for me, that optical and mechannical engineering are Leica's strengths; electronics are its weakness.
    SlŠinte

    Robert.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    I love the rating system at dpreview. There are only 2 possible ratings: Highly recommend (meaning they liked it), and Recommended (which means they didn't like it). This camera carries their kiss of death, the dreaded "Recommended".

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    I love the rating system at dpreview. There are only 2 possible ratings: Highly recommend (meaning they liked it), and Recommended (which means they didn't like it). This camera carries their kiss of death, the dreaded "Recommended".
    Actually, the Fujifilm S3 Pro received an "Above Average":

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms3pro/

    You should have seen the firestorm that ensued afterwards with Fuji aficionados...

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Interesting to compare the X1's lens at f/2.8 to the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 at 2.0.
    The 20 1.7 looks like a better lens at f/2 then the leica at f/2.8
    OTOH, at f/8 the leica wins by just a bit.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 18th December 2009 at 18:07.

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    My take-away from this well done review (thanks for including RAW files to download) is that the GF-1 is every bit as good in most areas, superior in some, and half the price of the X1. Surprising, since I really wanted the X1 to be a clear winner.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    The Panasonic lens beat the Leica at all f stops except f1.7. When both lenses are set to the optimum setting (f5.6 for the Panny and f8.0 for the Leica) the Panny has better MTF at the center and equal at the edge and better CA throughout. Remember the Panny is a $400 lens!
    V/r John

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    John,
    Don't forget the GF1 corrects for CA in the RAW file and the EP-1 doesn't so you can see the lens CA on the Oly lens test.
    Here are the lenses compared and you can see the CA of the two.
    I'm also not quite sure of your statement of the Panny lens MTF at the center...


    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the Oly body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2

    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the G1 body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Leica MTF beats Pany from center to 50% out.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    I like DPR and they do a good job with their reviews. However, I am careful to sort through "any" review and figure out which bits are important to me. I knew I would buy an X1 as soon as I saw the 20"x30" prints from the X1 at PhotoPlus. I have been waiting a long time for a small pocketable camera with that kind of image quality.

    I admit I am concerned about the reported sluggish performance of the X1 autofocus, startup/shutdown time, and shot-to-shot times. However, for me the small size and image quality is the main attraction. The only way to know if the sluggish performance is a problem for my intended use is to buy and use the camera for a while. I am hopeful that Leica will continue to improve the X1 with future firmware updates just as they did the M8. The other ray of hope for the X1 (and S2 for that matter) is the release of optimized camera profiles for the raw converters.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Teryy, I was going by the lens review on DPR for the Panasonic lens and their review of the X1 lens on the X1 review. You can play with the f stop and see the MTF and CA for the lenses. Both the Leica and the GF1 do in camera correction in JPGs.
    V/r John

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Teryy, I was going by the lens review on DPR for the Panasonic lens and their review of the X1 lens on the X1 review. You can play with the f stop and see the MTF and CA for the lenses. Both the Leica and the GF1 do in camera correction in JPGs.
    Look at the links I posted. Those are the same lens reviews. You simply have the Leica lens on the left and the Panny 20mm on the right. The 20mm information is displayed twice. Once on the G1 and the Other time on the E-P1.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Although the Lumix 20 helps even the score for low light handheld photography, I suspect that the X1 will have better overall image quality at base ISO than any of the Micro 4/3 cameras. Better DR, tonal range, etc, when light isn't limited. That's not an easy thing to show in a review, but I'd assume it's the case based on my experience with a Nikon D5000 (very similar, if not the same, sensor as the X1) and various Micro Four Thirds cameras.

    With that sensor in a small camera, I think the X1 will have its fans just as the Sigma DP2 has its fans.

  18. #18
    kmanphoto
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    John,
    Don't forget the GF1 corrects for CA in the RAW file and the EP-1 doesn't so you can see the lens CA on the Oly lens test.
    Here are the lenses compared and you can see the CA of the two.
    I'm also not quite sure of your statement of the Panny lens MTF at the center...


    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the Oly body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2

    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the G1 body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2
    help me out here folks ---- i clicked on these links -- am i correct to interpret the results that the 20mm panasonic on either the ep-1 or the gf is better than the x1 28mm???

    thanks
    kman

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by kmanphoto View Post
    help me out here folks ---- i clicked on these links -- am i correct to interpret the results that the 20mm panasonic on either the ep-1 or the gf is better than the x1 28mm???

    thanks
    kman
    at the bottom of the page you can move the f stop to show the MTF as you stop down. You need to compare them at the various apertures....

  20. #20
    kmanphoto
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    John,
    Don't forget the GF1 corrects for CA in the RAW file and the EP-1 doesn't so you can see the lens CA on the Oly lens test.
    Here are the lenses compared and you can see the CA of the two.
    I'm also not quite sure of your statement of the Panny lens MTF at the center...


    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the Oly body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2

    24 elmarit on X1 vs. Panny 20mm on the G1 body

    http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/...ration.xml%3F2
    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    at the bottom of the page you can move the f stop to show the MTF as you stop down. You need to compare them at the various apertures....
    ok i just looked at the results --- am i wrong or is the 20mm panasonic better than the x1's 28mm ? I really have never paid much attention to these types of charts before so please bear with me.

    thank you
    kman

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Here are the graphs with both lenses set to their optimum f stop for MTF. The Panasonic is clearly out performing it in both MTF and CA.
    Last edited by barjohn; 26th June 2010 at 22:27.
    V/r John

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    John,

    The Panasonic will ALWAYS outperform other cameras on CA. I said it before, Panasonic is removing the CA and baking that into the RAW files. This is not to say that you don't get CA from the lens, you just don't see it. Olympus doesn't correct the RAW files for CA. That is exactly why I put the Olympus comparison in my post. If you are going to make a statement about the lens you need use Apples to Apples. I'm OK with software based corrections and looking at the output you get from the combo hardware and software but in this case you have the ability to look at the lens uncorrected for CA.

    Now you talk again about the optimal f stop for the MTF. I thought the optimals were F8 on the Leica and F5.6 on the Panasonic. Your picture is at Leica f5.0 and Panasonic f3.3. Why have you chosen those? Here is the same picture at f8 and f5.6

    Attachment 25902

    Not sure why the screen print is staying so small but you can recreate this larger by following my link above and moving the scale at the bottom of the widget to the same f-stops I am showing.

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Terry, you are right and I missed your point earlier. However, it appears to me that Leica is baking in corrections to CA and performing some noise reduction to their RAW files. There is no way to measure the Leica lens sans sensor and processing since it is not removable. Attached are two magnified views of their noise test at ISO 800 and 1600. The loss of detail in the X1 images compared to either the Nikon or the GF1 is evident. The last image is a raw image magnified from the DPR comparison between the X1 and the GF1 at ISO 100 of their studio scene and the difference in detail is virtually non-existent.
    Last edited by barjohn; 26th June 2010 at 22:27.
    V/r John

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    I had the DP1 and the DP1 and absolutely loved the image quality at lower ISOs, but the slow performance of those cameras killed them for me and I sold them. And it sounds like the X1 has similar issues at a super high price. I was really hoping to like the X1, but I think I am going to have to wait for the next generation or wait and see what other companies come up with. In the meantime, my S90 isn't bad at all for a compact that fits in my jeans pocket...

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    Quote Originally Posted by peterm1 View Post
    I was really hoping to like the X1, but I think I am going to have to wait for the next generation or wait and see what other companies come up with.
    One of the problems with this approach is that if you don't buy an X1, the X2 you really want may never be made. If the X1 isn't a robust success, then it's likely Leica may decide not pursue the concept any further, as proved to be the case with the Digilux 2 and Digilux 3 that preceeded the X1... :-/

    For what it's worth, I preordered an X1 but recently canceled it after realizing the E-P1 / 20mm combo is good enough for my everyday photography needs and the GF1 and G1 in combination with Olympus' F2 zooms are good enough for my "serious" photography needs. It will be a nice change of pace to step aside from the camera wars for a while (a year, maybe, until the next big salvo is fired?) and focus on upgrading my photography instead of my photography equipment. :-)

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    I'm not really convinced by the Leica-lens-performance in comparison to the 2.8/24Asph (which is of course expensive due to it's much larger image circle, mechanics and production scale) for the M, either. That makes me wonder if this is really a Leica-made lens or just a Leica-design with bigger tolerances and lots of mechanical plastic parts sourced from elsewhere... (which is crucial because everybody can put an APS-C-sensor into a small P&S but not design/build a Leica-lens...)

    But the samples look better than the GF1 + 1.7/20mm anyway. And another question: how do they measure MTF for the lens (not the whole system) with a non-removable lens...

    I love the layout and design of the dpreview-tests but especially the resolution results beyond nyquist always make me laugh (the X1 for example cannot resolve more than 2136lpph)...

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    They measure the system, lens, sensor and raw processing combination for non removable lenses.
    V/r John

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    Re: X1 Full Review posted at DPReview

    That's pointless, at best you can create a system-MTF when you can rule out any internal processing after the sensor within the RAW - they can't do that.

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