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M9 - Convince me !

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drxcm

Guest
I'm just about to pull the trigger on an M9 but can't help feel a little concerned about a few of the things I've read here and there on the net..

Could some M9 owners put my mind at rest and convince me that this camera is 'worth it' ...

A few of my concerns - in order on most concerning to me to least..

1. Dust magnet
2. Battery life
3. Shutter lag
4. Slow processor

I'm either thinking of an M9, or holding out and getting a 24 lux and an M8 to tide me over to the M9.2 or whatever it will be..

Any comments and opinions most welcome!

Cheers,
Stuart
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Your list 1-3 have been no issue at all for me at all. Sure the zoom/preview could be faster but it's hardly a game stopper.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons to worry about an M8 -> M9 change but I don't think that these are the significant ones. Now if we were talking costs, availability, lens line up changes, finish differences or M8 resale then maybe ...
 
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13ud1

Guest
The greatest plus of the M9 is its size. This is a portable full frame camera. This advantage is far bigger than all the flaws combined.
 
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canon5dshooter

Guest
drxcm, do you have any idea where to actually find an M9?
 
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drxcm

Guest
As far as lens line up I have a 35 cron ASPH and 50 lux pre-asph, also the Nokton 50 1.1

My current body is an M6 and I also use a Lumix GH-1 for my digi stuff.

I've also been eyeing up the 5d Mk2 and the D700, but am wary of these because of size, and the fact I have no lenses for them...

My local dealer has an M9 coming in in 3 days for me...
 
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disambiguated

Guest
1. Dust magnet
100% bogus - absolutely not a problem at all.

2. Battery life
100% bogus - I'm getting great battery life out of the M9, better than the M8.2, so far.

3. Shutter lag
100% bogus - it's instantaneous.

What kind of kooks/liars/idiots are you listening to, heh?

4. Slow processor
This is true when it comes to zooming in to do pixel-peeping. Quite frankly, it's actually sort of an inadvertently useful form of behavior modification, as it discourages pixel-peeping, which in turn encourages actual photography, heh.

;>
 

Mike Hatam

Senior Subscriber Member
A few of my concerns - in order on most concerning to me to least..

1. Dust magnet
2. Battery life
3. Shutter lag
4. Slow processor

Cheers,
Stuart
Stuart - of the four issues you listed, the first three are not an issue for me at all.

I have cleaned my sensor (using compressed air) about three times in the 3 months that I've owned the M9, but it's no more of an issue than any other camera I've owned.

Battery life is decent, but you'll want an extra battery in your kit.

Shuter lag? Haven't had any issues at all with that.

Now, the fourth one on your list is an issue for me. The slow processor makes the camera feel sluggish on playback, when formatting cards, etc. Hopefully Leica will make improvements in firmware on this issue.

Mike
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Hi Stuart

I too am thinking of picking up an M9 and maybe two lenses (50 and either a 75 or 90) to complement my Cambo/P45+. I need a better than decent full frame 35mm camera that I can count on to provide the IQ for large prints.

I’ve been silently visiting the M9 threads here and on Leica’s website till now. I’ve seen various posts concerning the four items on your lists and like the others who have responded feel certain the first 3 have no concern and if the processor is slow, it can and will be fixed in a firmware update.

This comes not from an owner but has a fellow traveler on the way to buying his first Leica. I’d buy it today if one was available and finances were right.

Don
 

D&A

Well-known member
Hi All,

As Mike has expressed >>>"Now, the fourth one on your list is an issue for me. The slow processor makes the camera feel sluggish on playback, when formatting cards, etc. Hopefully Leica will make improvements in firmware on this issue."<<<

I feel exactly the same way while extensively working with a loaned M9... and that issue and issue alone for my kind of work has been bothersome and was quite surprising. There are certain types of Pro shoots where extensive chimping/review is an absolute necessity becuase of ever changing and difficult stage lighting and movement and also in order to quickly move onto another shooting vanatge point..... and it's important in both these instances to determine if the required neccessary shots have been captured without issue. I may be wrong but if it's processor speed, I'm not sure how a firmware can resolve this by itself..but I may be wrong in this regard.

For many this isn't an absolute requirement (both fast review and zooming of an image and also fast formats etc.) and so for those instances it's more of a nuisance with the M9...which otherwise is an extremely fine and capable camera. I also wouldn't necessarily put the current and last of the M8's and M8.2's far below an M9, even for the most critical of applications. It too is a fine performing camera. Each has its place and capabilities.

Dave (D&A)
 
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2x2

Guest
... I feel exactly the same way while extensively working with a loaned M9... and that issue and issue alone for my kind of work has been bothersome and was quite surprising. There are certain types of Pro shoots where extensive chimping/review is an absolute necessity becuase of ever changing and difficult stage lighting and movement and also in order to quickly move onto another shooting vanatge point..... and it's important in both these instances to determine if the required neccessary shots have been captured without issue. I may be wrong but if it's processor speed, I'm not sure how a firmware can resolve this by itself..but I may be wrong in this regard.

For many this isn't an absolute requirement (both fast review and zooming of an image and also fast formats etc.) and so for those instances it's more of a nuisance with the M9...which otherwise is an extremely fine and capable camera. I also wouldn't necessarily put the current and last of the M8's and M8.2's far below an M9, even for the most critical of applications. It too is a fine performing camera. Each has its place and capabilities.

Dave (D&A)
Firmware can't fix the slow processor problem. Only a faster processor can do that.
Another problem the slow processor will cause is an excessive amount of time the camera needs to clear the buffer. (One doesn't need to be a machine gunner to need the continuous shooting mode from time to time.)
 
Firmware can't fix the slow processor problem. Only a faster processor can do that.
Another problem the slow processor will cause is an excessive amount of time the camera needs to clear the buffer. (One doesn't need to be a machine gunner to need the continuous shooting mode from time to time.)
Firmware improveents can definitely increase card reading times which is at the heart of chimping speed. I expect the next M9 firmware to solve this problem.

As to shutter lag, a long thread on LUF indicates the M9 has a lag of 100ms compared to an M8 with 80ms. This may be detectable by some, but in my experience absolutely doesn't interfere with timing my shots. On the other hand, I much prefer the shutter of my M7 which is not only much faster (15ms I believe), but much smoother. The reason for the longer delay in the digital shutters is that the sensor is being prepared for each shot as part of the cycle of events when releasing the shutter.
 
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2x2

Guest
Firmware improveents can definitely increase card reading times which is at the heart of chimping speed. I expect the next M9 firmware to solve this problem.
Happy waiting. (Don't hold your breath, though.)
 

Amin

Active member
Firmware improveents can definitely increase card reading times which is at the heart of chimping speed. I expect the next M9 firmware to solve this problem.
I've never seen a firmware update do this for any camera. More likely this will be on the list of incremental upgrades for the M9.2, along with the sapphire LCD cover, etc.

As to shutter lag, a long thread on LUF indicates the M9 has a lag of 100ms
Even without comparing to M8, that is a pretty disappointing figure, no? Shutter lag is often cited as a strength of rangefinder cameras compared to SLRs. 100ms?? A Canon Rebel XS, currently selling for $409 (with lens), has a shorter shutter lag than that.

These are minor disappointments though, at least to me. If not for the price, I'd be on a list somewhere for an M9.
 
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tonyroth

Guest
Happy waiting. (Don't hold your breath, though.)
You should be more careful in your statements. I spoke with a Leica product manager who told me he personally was acting as a field Q/A for the lastest firmware awaiting release. He said that virtual all memory card issues have been corrected as well as replay magnification and number of shots that can be taken before requiring pause for the buffer to catch up has been increased by about 2 frames. From my perspective, this would address 95% of the processor issues associated with the camera, the principal one being the replay magnification issue.

To the original poster, given that your first 3 concerns are not real issues, in my opinion, you should be fine IF what I was told by this Leica rep bears out.
 
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2x2

Guest
You should be more careful in your statements. I spoke with a Leica product manager who told me he personally was acting as a field Q/A for the lastest firmware awaiting release. He said that virtual all memory card issues have been corrected as well as replay magnification and number of shots that can be taken before requiring pause for the buffer to catch up has been increased by about 2 frames. From my perspective, this would address 95% of the processor issues associated with the camera, the principal one being the replay magnification issue.

To the original poster, given that your first 3 concerns are not real issues, in my opinion, you should be fine IF what I was told by this Leica rep bears out.
BS. They said similar things about the M8.
The slow processor is the weakest link. Read any review (other than the ones written by fanboy's) and you'll hear the same thing over and over.
Most $2000 DSLRs have a processor that can run circles around the one in the M9. IMO, the M9 is as half cooked as the M8 was. Just a lot more expensive.

PS: I do have a M8. And I love Leica but I won't be buying the M9 because it's not worth the money. Rather will buy a D3X with the money I put aside.
Let's see what the M9.2 or whatever they'll call it, will have in store (don't care for Sapphire glass, though). Wouldn't be surprised if we'll see at next year's Photokina (10 month from now) a new version of it, probably with the Maestro processor and sensor that goes with it. (Won't hurt S2 sales by then anymore.)
 

atanabe

Member
. . .

A few of my concerns - in order on most concerning to me to least..

1. Dust magnet
2. Battery life
3. Shutter lag
4. Slow processor

I'm either thinking of an M9, or holding out and getting a 24 lux and an M8 to tide me over to the M9.2 or whatever it will be..

Any comments and opinions most welcome!

Cheers,
Stuart
As a former M8 owner and current M9 owner, I was skeptical about laying out the extra $$$ for the M9. After using a loaner M9 for a couple of days I found that it did make enough of a difference to spend the money.
1. No more a dust magnet than the M8, clean with an Arctic Butterfly daily just like any other camera.
2. I used the M9 for a four day workshop in Bangkok and had it with me constantly so for a real world battery life I can attest that I got the equivalent of 8 gb of dng shots per battery - the camera was on for about 18 hours of the day.
3. Shutter lag - didn't affect me
4. Slow processor, yeah the buffer fills up after 6 continuous frames which can be frustrating when you have to machine gun. Trying to wean myself from chimping, too many things happening around me to keep on checking to see if my exposure is right, just got to trust your technique.

If you are a true rangefinder shooter, then going to a heavier DSLR/lens combo will slow you down faster than the processing speed. In the end it is a personal decision that you and you alone will have to make.

Regards,
Al
 

jklotz

New member
I believe it was Mark Tucker (http://www.marktucker.com/) who once said:

"if I've got a truck load of lights, plenty of time and a big budget, it's MF w/ a DB

if I've got a limited budget, but have to get the shot, it's 35mm

if it's for me, it's a Leica"

That sort of nails it for me. I shoot professionally, so I couldn't do without MF/LF and 35mm, but there is something about a RF camera that I love. A Leica RF is not something you buy because you need it. I almost never take a rangefinder to a pro shoot. It's something one does for the passion. If it is simply a tool, the idiosyncrasies are going to drive you nuts. Stick with 35. If you absolutely have to get the shot, stick with 35. If you want to impress the neighbors, stay with 35.

I believe there are way too many people jumping on the M9 bandwagon because it's the latest/greatest thing to have. Given what many are trying to do, it's not the right camera.

It's like I tell my students (I teach a college level architectural photography course): Depending on photography to pay your bills is a difficult endeavor at best. If you have a choice, I'd recommend another career path. If it's something you "have" to do, then do it with 110%. If you "have" to go with a RF, Leica is the best solution. If it's not something you are passionate about, stick with 35. It's a much easier way to go.

Truth be known, Mark Tucker could take a cell phone camera and make pictures that would make all of us oh and ahh. It's not the camera folks....
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I own an M8 and will eventually purchase an M9. I made the decision recently after looking at some prints made by Michael Reichmann that were shot with the M9. Really lovely. In his words: "It's what the M8 should have been."

One big factor to consider is that the lenses will be truer to the traditional focal length than they are on the M8. Depending on whether you want/like that change may help you decide between an M8 and 9.

As for all the other minute details... I just can't get to excited about things like shutter lag races. I've not heard anyone complain that they were missing the decisive moment because of the lag. Maybe I'm too old and slow to notice the difference, but 100 milliseconds doesn't sound "slow" to me.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Hi All,

First what James wrote above couldn't be truer....and in my opinion many of his points often get overlooked when discussing equipment that one wants, needs or uses.

TRSmith, I have no doubt both what you observed or saw in Michael Reichmann's prints using the M9. What I wonder about is the possibly of any M8 prints (especially large format) your might have saw and also their its impact on you. I've done some comparisons in large format sizes myself with both cameras and putting aside color bit depth, 16 vs 8 (or 14 bit) and other image defining characteristics etc.....the increase in approx 30% overall resolution is important but not night and day for many subjects. In fact for most at normal viewing distances, people would be hard pressed to discern much difference unless they examined quite closely (sometimes too close)...and then again if that is what they focused on (no pun intended)..then the image itself may have not carried the impact that it should have.... in deciding to make it into such a large print.

It's the image that should first sweep one away. I must add that those extra pixels are nothing to sneeze at and often do play an important role with certain types of images...but I believe Michael Reichmann and many others could bring out large format prints made on the M8, not say a work, and even discerning individuals would find them as lovely as those from the M9 made by the same individual. The M9 is a tool that has made and offers incremental improvement in image quality and size vs. the M8 and although is impressive, doesn't eclipse the M8/M8.2 by leaps and bounds. Instead it offers additional flexibility in the area of printing and some other applications.

Think of the computers we are all using. Unless one has just purchased the absolute latest model with the fastest processor and amenities, it probably lacks in some area when compared to the best. Does it get the job done in any lesser way? Once you have the results, is the final priduct that much less than if done on the latest desktop? Sometimes the answer is "Yes"...and thats valid...but more often than not, if just one generation removed, the answer is probably no. We use and work harder to make a slightly lesser model work with little loss or impact or as much as is possible.

No one doubts (including myself) what a RAW image from the Nikon D3 (12M pixels) can do. Many have printed 24x36" prints that are truly stunning by most any standard and the M8 can basically match the D3. Again its always subject dependent and how many more pixels would really improve the image and print at this size. AGain all great cameras and little by litle, the bar is always going to be raised.

Just my thoughts. We're all lucky to have such choices!

Dave (D&A)
 
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