Let's talk 75 and 90mm

[tom in mpls]

Let's talk 75 and 90mm. Which FL and lens do you like best?

So far I like what I am getting with my M8. I suspect my itch will worsen until it is relieved by an M9, thus I want to consider lenses that I would likely keep if I take the aforementioned cure.

I am thinking about a portrait lens, thus 75 or 90mm. I am leaning towards 90mm as I think it will be usable on the 8, and more to my liking on a 9.

My thought at this point is to go for a 90mm Elmarit. I doubt I'd be interested in the cron as I don't believe the price to speed advantage is good, plus a bit deeper DOF will not be unappreciated. And I have seen comments preferring the Elmarit over the Summarit.

I know this is a bit ambiguous, since it implies 2 questions: which focal length/lens do you prefer? and which focal length/lens is best for me? Advise as you prefer on these questions.

And a last question: is there any advantage to a 6-bit coded lens at these focal lengths?

Share your preferences with me.

 

[Hacker]

The 75mm does not frame too well with the M8, and improved with the M8.2. If you can correct for the not so precise framelines, I would recommend highly the 75 Lux or the 75 ASPH. The 90 AA shines from 15-20 ft onwards, does not fare too well close up.

 

[glenerrolrd]

The best place to see the results for these lens would at Reid reports. He has tests of the 75 s and the 90s and includes some of the zeiss (ZM) and CV lenses. Across the board 75 and 90 lenses are strong performers. You can make almost any decision work on either the m8 or the m9 .

The important criteria relate to the type of photography you intend to do(for example if you need speed for available light work then f2.8 might be an issue?).





The sequence I use in picking a lens is as follows:

1. Field of View(FOV)....I like around 90/100 for street work. Long enough to pick up activity on the other side of the street and helpful around bridges,water etc where you can t easily get closer. My preference is for the 75 on the m8 and 90 on the m9. The framelines on the m8 are inaccurate (at distance) and so close to the lines for the 50 as to be distracting. On the M8.2 or if you ungraded the framelines, the 75 works great.

2. Speed ....this is quite important to me in street shooting because I enjoy the early morning and evening light .....the M9 is better than the M8 but ISO 1000 is still the upper limit (at least for color) .

3. Size and handling...its both. I find I get used to the size of the lens pretty quickly and although the 75cron is beautiful to work with I could use the much larger and heavier summilux . Handling however should be considered ..the summilux has a long throw (more turns to focus)..the summicron a short throw (quick to focus) . With practice I could shoot sports with the 75 (tennis) .

4. Rendering....each lens has a character . This is one of the joys of shooting with a M system. You can range from bold color,high contrast,razor sharpness to softer color,natural contrast and creamy bokeh.

5. Price ...the most over discussed part of the decision. M systems are really expensive and you need enough glass to really use them (2-3 lenses) otherwise the camera you have does work for the opportunity you see. (This can be debated endlessly). I have never been sorry with any M glass purchase ...with that said if you have a budget ..you have a budget and buying the 75 summilux may seem crazy.

So if I have to pick just one for the long term........its the 90 summicron....this lens creates a beautiful rendering(IMHO) , handles well with excellent balance on the M and is fast enough for available light. It avoids the frame issue on the M8 and is a good all around solution for the M9.

While I like the 75 summilux better for portraits and the 75 summicron or 90 elmarit better for travel or in excellent light......you can build around the 90 summicron as an all around lens.

 

[Mike Hatam]

Tom -

Consider the rest of your lens set while making this choice. Will this end up being your longest lens, or will you also add a 135 on the long end?

If this is going to be your longest lens, and you already have a 50, then I would suggest a 90. It will provide better spacing, and a better "longest lens" solution than the 75.

If you are going to eventually add a 135, then I'd consider the 75, as it's a slightly more versatile focal length than the 90.

As for me, after going back and forth, I opted for the 90, and it's my longest lens. Not an easy choice, though.

Mike

 

[D&A]

Roger Said the Following: >>> " 4. Rendering....each lens has a character . This is one of the joys of shooting with a M system. You can range from bold color,high contrast,razor sharpness to softer color,natural contrast and creamy bokeh.

So if I have to pick just one for the long term........its the 90 summicron"<<<

I am assuming Roger was referring to the 90mm AA?

In either case Roger and most everyone expressed valid and excellent reasons on which possible lens to select. For myself it was a difficult choice as rendering is what makes the Leica M system really stand out as well as sharpness. Considering just the 75mm and 90mm focal lengths (and just leica lenses for the moment and putting aside frameline accuracy)...we have the the 75mm Summarait and Summicrons for when ultimate sharpness used wide open is a prime consideration and the 75mm Summilux f1.4 for when somewhat softer rendering (contrast, sharpness etc.) is desired, especially for portraits and certain trypes of atmospheric types of images. The same sort of logic can be applied for the Elmarit-M 90mm f2.8 (last one produced), 90mm f2.5 Summarait and 90mm f2.0 cron AA....all close to being equally sharp wide open vs the 90mm Cron f2.0 pre AA (especially the last one produced) which is equal in size and handling as the 90 AA) but which has a somewhat softer rendering at f2 and f2.8 than the other three lenses but keeps up with them in sharpness when stopped down.

In the 90mm catagory, especially when speed is a concern, you'll find just as many suggesting the 90mm AA as you will the 90mm pre ASPH. I could go back and forth all day which one, as it all depends on the specific use and character I'm looking for. Although I have the 75mm Lux for speed and softer rendering and initially went for the 90mm AA as a balance to it (spfter rendering vs. ultimate sharpness)...I kept gravitation to the 90mm Pre ASPH (sold the 90mm AA)....and yet, there are times I would have wanted to reach for the 90mm ASPH for its sharpness wide open...but not always. It told me (for myself specifically)...that the slightly softer rendering came into play more often than not, although I shoot subjects in lower light, where great sharpness and rendering of detail is important. YOu can make one work in pl;ace of the other..but not always.

I think first you should determine which focal length works best for you. As mentioned, if you have a M8 (with it's orginal framelines) and a 50mm, then the 90mm would be my next choice. From that point I would determine if you need the extra stop of speed of an f2 vs. a f2.8. If f2.0, then rendering is your next important criteria and will determine which 90mm f2.0 lens...the AA or Pre ASPH lens. If f2.5 and f2.8, slightly slower and smaller handling lenses are fine..and great sharpness wide open works for most all types of situations, then these two should be considered and like everyone has said...the f2.8 is a top choice for its all around performance, value, handling etc.

Lastly Mike also had a interesting suggestion that if you were to contemplate a 135mm at some point, then the 75mm might be your next choice as 90mm and 135mm might be too close and it provides better spacing. This is absolutely true, yet for myself, I view the 135mm in a catagoy all its own if using a M8 or M8.2, as it brings a efective field of view of approx 180mm...which will generally only be used for quite specific applications. The 90mm will have an effective field of view of 120mm, which still keeps it in longer portrait territory or "longer street work" type of photography..and so, for myself, I would for the moment, keep the 135mm and its future purchase and use out of the equation and decide on the 75mm and 90mm focal length question ny itself......but thats just my personal way fo things based on my own experieces.

So much great and helpful advice here and as costly as it may become at times...trying out and seeing what works best for you both in focal length, cost and most important the rendering of these optics...will ultimtely help you end up finding exactly what right for your style of photography (as well as budget).

Dave (D&A)

 

[tom in mpls]

If this is going to be your longest lens, and you already have a 50, then I would suggest a 90. It will provide better spacing, and a better "longest lens" solution than the 75.

This would be my longest lens.

 

[Don Libby]

Tom – Once again I thank you for voicing a question I’ve had and attempted to answer. I decided that I’ll be getting two lenses when I order my M9 one of which will be a 50mm. The other lens is either going to be a 75 or 90 and I attempted to answer that question based on what I had be subconsciously been using when shooting my 24-105. While I tended to stay near the 75mm length there were times that the 90 range was used. Based on my “real world” landscape experience I found myself leaning towards 75mm.

All this was of course until I read this thread and the excellent advice and reasons were given. I now see the wiser choice (at least for me) is the 90.

I eventually will pick a third lens which will either be a 28 or 35.

A question I have is, is there any problems/concerns with any of these lenses with a sunshade attached, will the sunshade block the viewfinder?

Thanks in advance

Don

 

[Double Negative]

I'd go for the 90, since 75 is relatively close to 50. I don't know that I'd bother with a 135 at all on an RF. Now granted, the 1,4/75 Summilux is a sweet lens. The 2/75 Summicron doesn't seem too shabby either. But... A 90mm is different enough from 50mm and still reasonably easy enough to frame, focus and work with.

I might suggest the 2,8/90 Elmarit-M. Optically it's a fantastic lens. Wide open it's quite sharp - but stop it down to f/5.6 - it doesn't get much better. The size and weight is surprisingly small and compact given the speed. It's also a real bargain as far as Leica glass goes! The 2/90 Summicron is fatter at the end, heavier and somewhat more expensive. I don't know if the speed is worth it to you.

 

[tom in mpls]

A question I have is, is there any problems/concerns with any of these lenses with a sunshade attached, will the sunshade block the viewfinder?

Don, I have just found a huge amount of detailed info on the Leica lenses at Ken Rockwell's site. In addition to his own opinions on the lenses, he provides lots comments on blocked viewfinders and such.

 

[Paratom]

I own the 75 Summarit, 90 Elmarit and 75 lux (which I might sell).
On both M8 and M9 I have used the 75 Summarit most. Easy to focus and I really like the images even wide open.
The 90 Elmarit I like too, however the 75Sumarit is my favorite.
On the M9 I use 75 and sometimes 135.
The 75lux is nice too but harder to focus (longer thread) plus very slight focus shift and wide open I ama not fully convinced.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Tom

I would be careful using Ken Rockwell s reviews . His perspective is quite different than my experience although if you are coming from a DSLR background it maybe helpful. Sean Reid is the reviewer I find best at evaluating rangefinder lenses. I feel SR reviews are sufficiently detailed that the can get all the facts necessary.

I rarely find blocking of the viewfinder to be an issue in actual use. It does depend on how you set up your lenses but for the wide angles . wider than 28mm I would be using a external finder for framing. Yes the Noctilux cuts off a lot and maybe the 75 lux but I haven t noticed much. I know this bothers some people and if it does then its important..but my experience has been OK on this issue.

 

[Don Libby]

I really try not saying ill of anyone however I just can’t stand Ken Rockwell’s unique perspective. I’ve tried however I find nothing on his site that I respect nor like thus I haven’t visited nor responded to anything concerning his site in some time. There are much better respected experienced reviewers; Sean Reid, Michael Reichmann, and of course Jack & Guy.

I really appreciate the feedback here on GetDpi. This feedback of experience is just a small example of what makes this site so great.

Don

 

[tom in mpls]

Don, I am well aware of the "controversy" that Ken triggers with his opinions. I was trying to be careful in my statement; I should have said "in addition to his own opinions, which may or may not have value, he provides lots comments on blocked viewfinders and such.

It is nice to have one place with so much data on the lenses.

At any rate, my thought at this point is to go with a 90 elmarit. I see that there is an older tele-elmarit that is even smaller and less expensive than the current elmarit. Other that Ken Rockwell, has anyone else had expreince with the tele version?

 

[glenerrolrd]

Tom

The best stuff on the older leica M lens was written by E. Puts (hope I spelled it correctly). He authored the leica lens compendium and used to have a PDF version available on his website. He does a good job of reviewing the evolution of the leica glass. There were several versions of the tele elmarit with different formula.

I had one of these back in the K64/M6 days and it was a good performer. Generally the newer versions have better performance (microcontrast) wide open when compared to the previous generation. The asph/apo versions add another level of correction and generally resolution,contrast and saturation.

The older versions are sometimes sought out because of the creative uses of the glow,bokeh etc which differ by lens. These are normally the fast lenses .

If cost is a factor I would look for the current 90:2.8 Elmarit used and without coding. I did this last month and passed on 3-4 that were between $600-850 before I went with an almost new one with 6 bit . They are being snapped up but you can find one ..get it coded by DAG for $100 and have a lens you can use or resell (probably for a profit).

 

[tom in mpls]

Roger, is coding a real benefit at 90mm?

I've read stuff by Putz. The most complete and technical I've seen.

 

[Hacker]

Tom, have you considered that the 90AA is big and heavy compared to the 75AA? I never had any good results with the M8 using the 135mm APO, but with the M9, the lens is a beauty. I have owned and used many lenses in this focal range (Rollei 80mm, 75AA, 90AA, 75 Lux, Hexanon 90mm, Fujinon 10cm etc) and I have decided that it ultimately depends on what you shoot. For portraiture, the lens that give immense satisfaction is the Nikkor 8.5cm f/2.

Ken Rockwell, that is another story for another day. My experience is starkly different from his.

 

[tom in mpls]

Umm, maybe if I just insult your mothers, you guys will forget that I ever mentioned KR. . . :talk028:


I lean toward the 90/2.8 as it seems to be a fine lens, and I don't think it will be worth the big premium to move up to the AA plus I want a smaller lens.

 

[Gary P]

Hi Tom,

I love the 90 Elmarit 2.8. Here is a senior portrait I took this fall of a family friend. I was pleasantly pleased with the IQ of the lens and the focal length on my M8 as a portrait lense. I might consider a 135 lens if and when my M9 arrives.

Best wishes.

Gary P

 

[tom in mpls]

Gary, this is a lovely portrait. BTW, the light is so even; did you use additional lighting?

 

[monza]

There are so many good 90mm options, it's really impossible to make a bad choice. I'm partial to the 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit, very small and pocketable.

Rockwell's site has quite a bit of good comparison data in his lens charts, regardless of whether his writing style is appreciated...or not.