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Thread: You're going the wrong way!!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Jason Muelver's Avatar
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    You're going the wrong way!!

    I have the M bug.

    Right now, I shoot Nikon digital system. While I'd love an M9, that's not going to happen.

    I'm seeing M6's being rather affordable (for a Leica) at this point.

    Now my question. I got rid of my wet darkroom set up ions ago. I plan on shooting 90% Tri-X. But what about developing? Then web portfolios for personal use?

    As a side note, what's a 50 'cron from 1973 worth? Thanks!!!
    http://jasonedwardphoto.com http://jasonmuelver.tumblr.com
    Nikon FX, Leica M8, Mamiya 645, Canon F-1

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Muelver View Post
    I have the M bug.

    Right now, I shoot Nikon digital system. While I'd love an M9, that's not going to happen.

    I'm seeing M6's being rather affordable (for a Leica) at this point.

    Now my question. I got rid of my wet darkroom set up ions ago. I plan on shooting 90% Tri-X. But what about developing? Then web portfolios for personal use?

    As a side note, what's a 50 'cron from 1973 worth? Thanks!!!
    I actually tried to go use film again last year with a similar thought in mind. I loved my Leica M4-P, M6, etc. The fourth roll of film is still sitting in the camera, here on my desk, untouched since then. I just can't bring myself to carry it rather than my digital cameras.

    35mm film is simply too much bother, too slow, and the quality is not there for me anymore compared to what I can do with even FourThirds format digital now. When it was all there was aside from moving to medium format or larger film formats, it was fine to work within its constraints, but I've gotten used to more quality, more choice, better resolution, and much more productivity.

    It might prove different for you. Only way to know is to give it a run. My choice would be an M4-P ... I never liked the models with a meter in them quite as much as that one ... and a 21/40/75 mm lens kit. That would do it for me.

    I'm like to afford an M9 ... eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but I'm patient.

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    Senior Member simonclivehughes's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I'll chime in here too with a caveat... I tried this with a lovely Titanium M6 TTL and didn't even get as far as Godfrey! After the immediacy of digital, film was just a non-starter.

    Here's an alternative suggestion... get yourself a GF1 or an EP2, add the Panasonic 20mm f1.7 and then an adapter for your 50 'cron. It will give you a very close experience to shooting with an M body but allows you to stay in the digital realm.

    Cheers,

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    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    I'll chime in here too with a caveat... I tried this with a lovely Titanium M6 TTL and didn't even get as far as Godfrey! After the immediacy of digital, film was just a non-starter.

    Here's an alternative suggestion... get yourself a GF1 or an EP2, add the Panasonic 20mm f1.7 and then an adapter for your 50 'cron. It will give you a very close experience to shooting with an M body but allows you to stay in the digital realm.

    Cheers,
    good advice
    Mike

    website under construction

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    Super Duper
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Send your film out to a good lab that has high quality scanning. I'd recommend BW400CN or XP2, C41 process.

    The further digital goes into a series of multiple button presses and mode selections, the more I find myself drawn to simpler times and simpler cameras and simple user interfaces, with dynamic range that is far greater.

    What condition is the 50 cron? Prices will vary widely depending on barrel condition, glass condition, if you have the original box, etc. User or collectible...

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I started out in M's when I bought an M8 the day they were available. I purchased an M9 at the end of September. A friend who also shoots with the M8 convinced me to get an M7 which I did when I found a nice demo unit. I use it primarily for BW shooting both TMAX and Neopan 400 and some 1600. If you are looking for that gritty BW street look nothing beats BW film. I have it processed at a pro lab for about $7 a roll and then scan the images in on a Nikon scanner with Silverfast. The quality is really excellent.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    An alternative is to create a "white room" where you develop the film yourself and scan it. That's exactly what I'm setting up right now. I'm just missing the changing bag and few lab accessories and I'll be good to go soon. It depends if you want to keep the control for the development (or not), and/or if you are willing to spend the time for it.

    I started a one year project like suggested by Mike Johnston(TOP) at Click Here!

    You can have more details in the following days, of that link, on his blog as people reacted strongly to his suggestion.
    Francois B.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    A 70s cron around 600-700 dollars

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Jason- I support your quest! I was a digital only photographer, literally never shot film when I took it up 7 years ago. After 4 years of DSLR,s I found the M8, fell in love with RF shooting, and decided to try an M7. Short story- I now shoot film 1/3 of the time. I use XP2, get it developed only at a good pro lab that handles with care. I scan using a coolscan 5000D and vuescan (sometimes nikonscan). I scan the entire roll (actually 1/2 at a time) using the roll feeder add on. While the actual time is a lot, it happens in the background while I'm doing other things. At that point I have very high res files and I'm where I would be with my M9 files, time for post processing, done in photoshop. So the actual extra "real time" is waiting to get the film developed, the rest is "virtual time", not coming from my hide, no big deal. It's worth it to me as I consider the final image to have a different character than I get starting with a digitally captured file, i prefer it in many circumstances. Many people dismiss this "hybrid" route as missing the quality of "true" film like Tri-X, and losing the convenience of all digital, but I, obviously, don't feel that way! Then there's the extra joy of shooting the film M's. The incredibly quiet shutter for one. In the case of the M3, the "best" VF of all and a smaller in hand feel, in the case of the M5 the coolest metering system of all...well you get the point, I now shoot the "odd # Ms with an M3/M5/M7/M9 and get great satisfaction from all of them.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    A couple of years ago, burned out on digital I picked up a couple of film cameras; a Zeiss Ikon, Mamiya 7II and a Hassy. I'm shooting more film now than I ever have. Though I tend to reach for the MF gear first. If I'm going to shoot film, I want 6x7 negs.

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    Senior Member Jason Muelver's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I'm having a massive heart vs head battle here.

    I grew up shooting film, and everything. Mamiyas, Minoltas, Rolliflex, everything since I was about 8. My dad had a commercial studio. I think I stopped shooting when I was about 12 or so and picked it up again 20 some odd years later when I got a D200.

    I fell in love with shooting again and I've now transitioned it into a second career. I shoot Nikon for work, and need some more equipment on that end.

    Also, I like the micro 4/3 format for street work. While I haven't tried it myself, I like what I've seen. Like I mentioned before, if I could pull the trigger on an M9, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But that's a year or two out at this point for me. But an M6 with a 28 Leitz and I think I'd be very happy. But I've become accustomed to the instant gratification of the digital. Ugh.

    Yep... I want it all.

    Double Neg... don't even get my started on MF stuff. A Hassy 500 or Mamiya at these prices now days gives me the shakes. My wife will kill me. Good thing she likes the results!
    http://jasonedwardphoto.com http://jasonmuelver.tumblr.com
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    Member HenryFool's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Go for it! yes it's slower, harder to learn, full of heartbreak and disappointments but when you get it right the feeling is unbeatable. In my opinion it takes hard work and talent to be a good photographer with film.

    Digital photography is too easy - my six year old can take amazing photos with the 5D, he hasn't quite got the hang of a rangefinder, not yet

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Muelver View Post
    ...Double Neg... don't even get my started on MF stuff. A Hassy 500 or Mamiya at these prices now days gives me the shakes. My wife will kill me. Good thing she likes the results!
    Oh I know, it's amazing what (film) MF gear is going for these days. "Back in the day" it was mostly out of reach for mere mortals. I guess I'm late to the party with MF, but I'm totally loving the results and the experience (shooting).

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryFool View Post
    Go for it! yes it's slower, harder to learn, full of heartbreak and disappointments but when you get it right the feeling is unbeatable. In my opinion it takes hard work and talent to be a good photographer with film.

    Digital photography is too easy - my six year old can take amazing photos with the 5D, he hasn't quite got the hang of a rangefinder, not yet
    It's so funny to listen to this.

    I was at a photo group gathering the other evening. Half of the people there shoot film, another half shoot digital, and the other half shoot both. Conversation runs like this:

    "Yeah, I figured I had to get into digital so I bought the 5D and a few lenses."
    "How's it doing for you?"
    "I can't seem to figure it out. After hating all the pictures I made this past three weeks, this weekend I took out the Rolleiflex and shot two rolls of film. Its SOO easy. Don't know why I need to work with digital ..."


    and then

    "Well, I was trying to do this project with film and it was just driving me crazy. I picked up the cheapest Nikon digital I could find and all of a sudden I was getting loads done, the project was done, and I got invited to submit it to this book project. And they accepted it! ..."

    and then

    "... Well, I haven't had time to scan the rest of the film for this project, I only scanned the people shots and that took me three weeks. I have 1000 slides of the buildings and the villages to do, I may just send them out as it's too much work ... "

    and then

    "... try as I might, I cannot get a decent print out of the Epson 7800 I bought. Oh, color management? What paper profile? What's that? ..."

    and on and on.

    Do what you want to do. "Don't ask of the Elves as they will always answer both yes and no."

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    ^ Ha, so true. Use whatever floats your boat. As long as you're taking pictures and enjoying it, I say. I started with film, picked up digital, now I shoot both - but oddly, I'm shooting more film now than I ever have.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I don't find that odd. Digital has the advantage of instant feedback; it really helps to see the results (or lack thereof) in order to learn. After the experience of all those 'free*' frames over the past few years, I prefer the advantages of film and the look, so I am shooting more film now and enjoying it.

    *Of course, it wasn't anywhere close to free, except for no processing costs.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Agreed. Digital is convenient ("free" as you say, heh). But I love the look of film as well, and the whole experience is just... Different somehow. So yeah, not all that odd!

  18. #18
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Haven't shot a ton film in almost 10 years, have a couple of toy cameras I play with. A lubitel 166 and a lc-a RL... Been shooting Canons Pro/Prosumer gear for most of my work... Picked up an E-P2 to just take with me when I go out with my daughter and what happens.. I pick up a bunch of CV lenses and start shooting a ton of street photography....

    Started reading the forums and wanted to try a Leica... Well I ended up buying a m6 off this forum to use with the CV lenses... Almost a week and I am shooting more film than I ever have... It's not instantaneous however I can carry the E-P2 and the M6 and swap lenses all day... Yesterday went to the zoo and shot 3 rolls of TriX, 2 rolls of Velvia. Also shot about 100 or so with the E-P2....

    In terms of Workflow I have a pro Lab near my office that develops just the rolls for 5 bucks... I scan with a v700 that I just got.. Low Res I can do the whole roll in under an hour... For the Keepers and ones I plan on Printing I can do 2 strips of 6 in 48 bit (One that would contend with my 1DS3) in a little over an hour.. I'm not sitting there watching it.. Eventually I'll buy an M8.2 or an M9 if the bug really hits, but then I still have the same problem... I want to shoot black and white, not color and then manipulate... Could just be me...

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It's so funny to listen to this.

    [snip]

    Do what you want to do. "Don't ask of the Elves as they will always answer both yes and no."
    I agree. I've shot Leica for more than 40 years, and love, love, love it. However, for several years for work, I shot (still shoot) Nikon, and a variety of MF and LF cameras. I still have 5 film cameras, and I love the look of a silver print more than anything, but the truth is, I have 3 film cameras sitting with half-shot rolls in them. And I've done one paying project with film in the past 3 years. I just tend to default to digital. Who knew?!

    For me, I 'd say, if you want to jump into Leica, buy a used M8, which these days isn't that much more than a good used M6. A couple of CV lenses to start (say a 28, or the wonderful little 35 Color Skopar), and you're good to go. Even an older Leica 50 Cron can be had for a reasonable sum... I have two, and the newest was made in 1967.

    See how the flirtation goes before you sink a ton of $$ into it. Just sayin'.

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    Senior Member Jason Muelver's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Lloyd.. wise as always.

    The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the M8 for now, which I'm sure will lead to the M9, which will lead to ramen for dinner more often.

    The M6 film is just straight pure unadulterated lust. I will have one, or an MP. It's a matter of when, not if.
    http://jasonedwardphoto.com http://jasonmuelver.tumblr.com
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Muelver View Post
    Lloyd.. wise as always.

    The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the M8 for now, which I'm sure will lead to the M9, which will lead to ramen for dinner more often.

    The M6 film is just straight pure unadulterated lust. I will have one, or an MP. It's a matter of when, not if.
    Good luck with that... I know I'm looking forward to seeing what you get, and what you get with it.

    And I know about the MP lust... I've been severely afflicted for some time. Every time I bring it up, however, my wife just points to the cabinet with the other film Leicas, and says something like, "Yeah, there's room for it right there behind the IIIc with the half shot roll in it, isn't there?", so I'm still lusting.

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    Senior Member Jason Muelver's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Thought I would revisit this thread with some more points of interest.

    My dad gave me his old Mamiya stuff, so I've been shooting a bunch of MF film and loving it.

    My heart still lusts after an M6. My head says try an M8... if I like... upgrade to M9 and just stick to shooting MF film while shooting my Nikon stuff for work. Ugh.

    So these 8 months later, is the M8 a good intro to rangefinder type of thing? The way I'm looking at it now, is that the M8 shoots in film ISO ranges without having to develop it. I'll have a quick feedback this this type of shooting is for me. So I'm thinking an M8 (or M8.2?) and a 35 cron to give her a go??

    Whatchya think?
    http://jasonedwardphoto.com http://jasonmuelver.tumblr.com
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I think it's a good way to start. I still use an M8 (had an M9, and will get one again eventually), I also shoot an M6, but far less than the M8. 35 Cron a great lens. The M8 is a really great camera, and I'd be surprised if you aren't impressed. Good luck.

  24. #24
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    When you don't have a wet darkroom (and don't plan to build one anytime soon) then shooting film is entirely pointless. Just as pointless as shooting digital when you don't have a computer.

    Sure, for developing film you don't need a wet darkroom; hiding in a closet or under a thick blanket in a dark room at night and then a regular kitchen or bathroom will do. But for printmaking you'll need a wet darkroom. Shooting film and then scanning it is just a waste of time, effort, and money—after all, you'd just end up with a digital image out of the scanner which is worse than what you'd get from a good digital camera. Been there, done that. Shooting film makes sense only when you're making your own prints.

    Negative film, that is ... after all, you mentioned Tri-X. The exception to this rule is shooting transparency film and then presenting the results with a traditional projector on a silver screen. This involves neither a wet darkroom nor any scanning, and will yield superior results. If that's what you plan to do then go ahead! But you won't get your work online or into the computer this way.

    If you plan to scan your film (or have it scanned) on a regular basis then better forget it.

  25. #25
    Super Duper
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Interesting point of view.

    It's far from pointless for me, for many reasons.

    Just to list one: medium format film cameras are so cheap now, it is economical to shoot film and scan. Whereas it doesn't make sense for me to tie up a large amount of cash in medium format digital.

  26. #26
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Medium-format film cameras are so cheap now, it is economical to shoot film and scan.
    If you're looking at it from a purely financial point of view then maybe you're right, at least for some photographic fields ... and if you don't shoot too much—otherwise film and processing costs will add up quickly, eventually negating your savings on the hardware.

    However if your economy includes time and effort then I think you are wrong. Anyway, my life is too short to waste a significant part of it scanning film. Occasionally, yes. But on a regular basis, heck no! If your favourite leisure-time pursuit is shooting and developing and scanning film then more power to you! But don't bring forward economical reasoning.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Well, I can shoot a lot of film for the price difference, so the economics are valid. It also means I pay a bit as I go, instead of tying up tons of cash. The scanning time is irrelevant...I drop off the film, I get a CD back. Not to mention, there is little if any post processing; don't discount that factor when shooting digital. If one likes the look of film, it really is a lot easier just to shoot it to begin with.

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Lots of valid opinions here. I find myself agreeing with most of them, even when they contradict one another.

    For me, the lure of film is completely centered around the silver print. I miss those prints. I lust for them. But I will never build a print darkroom and the nearest available rental darkroom space is a two hour drive away. Can you get interesting results from medium format film that's been scanned? Absolutely! But do those results provide a substitute for my silver-paper darkroom dreams? No. It saddens me to say it, but my beautiful Rollieflex will remain a shelf queen forever more.

    Tim

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    ...I drop off the film, I get a CD back.
    Like at the next counter?

    Film for me most of the time. I get lazy when I use my D700, or the mFT stuff.

    Get a M3, a meter and a nice 50 like the DR cron. Develop your own and scan what you like.

  30. #30
    Super Duper
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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    I actually have to walk to another building.

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    Re: You're going the wrong way!!

    Tim said >>>"For me, the lure of film is completely centered around the silver print. I miss those prints. I lust for them. But I will never build a print darkroom and the nearest available rental darkroom space is a two hour drive away. Can you get interesting results from medium format film that's been scanned? Absolutely! But do those results provide a substitute for my silver-paper darkroom dreams? No"<<<

    Just my personal opinion:

    I agree with Tim's statement (above). Having started with film and fine art and reportage photography many years ago, the finished product "the print" was the cullmination of the effort, from taking the shot, developing the film, culling through negatives, to creating the final "silver" print. That print was not just an image but the cumulation of all that went into creating the image, such as choice of film and developer, developing times, choice of paper and chemicals and of course selction of enlarging lens. Each step is like ingrediants in a food receipe....leave one out or change it and things change. Same thing with eliminating steps (and taking shortcuts), the final product often looks similar, but doesn't taste the same (or in the case of the image, doesn't look the same or evoke the same emotions). I used to cut out the the wet darkroom part and simply get film developed locally and then scan it myself and print on high end inkjet (which has come a long way). Is it nice, yes, is it the same (product wise) as the entire wet darkroom process described, no in my opinion.

    Eventually though time constraints and expectations of others (especially clients) for the having the final product delivered quickly and in large number (of images), dictated a move to digital very early on, and as much as I'd occcasionally take a roll of film, it's been hard to go back....but boy do I miss it and have been tempted time and again to have a go at another round

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 20th November 2010 at 04:44.

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