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Thread: ZM 25mm and M9

  1. #1
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    ZM 25mm and M9

    Hi all,

    I have a curious request to ask, if anyone has a 25mm ZM and an M9, could you put the lens cap on, set the camera to ISO160, and put the shutterspeed dial to 8s and go outside.

    Once outside could you stand in the sun and press the shutter button? Then post the resulting (hopefully complete) blackness? Aperture is irrelevant.

    I'm just trying to rule out design as a factor in a problem I'm having

    Cheers,
    Daniel
    Last edited by thrice; 21st April 2010 at 06:37.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I would admire your ability to keep the Zeiss lens cap on to be honest ... for such an accomplished optics company their lens caps suck - big time. That's true for ZM & ZF lenses in my experience.

  3. #3
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Oh I use push-on lens caps Graham

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Hi all,

    I have a curious request to ask, if anyone has a 25mm ZM and an M9, could you put the lens cap on, set the camera to ISO160, and put the shutterspeed dial to 8s and go outside.

    Once outside could you stand in the sun and press the shutter button? Then post the resulting (hopefully complete) blackness? Aperture is irrelevant.
    It's such an odd request that of course I have to try it. And the result is a black photo. I shoot RAW.

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Thankyou so much Richard! That makes me glad. My lens is on it's way back to Popflash today, as this is what I get:



    Tony assures me of a replacement, even though Zeiss themselves came up with all sorts of excuses blaming the M9.

    Here are some examples of why this is such a problem in practical shooting, first an ND1.8 filter and second an IR filter.




  6. #6
    Member JimBuchanan's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    This apparent light leak, just happened? Your surf scenics don't show anything like this.

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBuchanan View Post
    This apparent light leak, just happened? Your surf scenics don't show anything like this.
    Hey Jim, I'm not sure! This is the first time I've shot with this lens in moderately bright light with these sorts of exposure times... The corners are usually quite bright in such scenes as well. Oh well, the lens shipped back to popflash (who have been great throughout this!) today, I'll definitely test the replacement thoroughly!

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I just tried this as a lark with my M8 and 1,5/50 Sonnar under a bright halogen light (2" from the lens top) for 4s (the longest M8 shutter speed). Results show a clean, black frame.

    As for the ZM lens caps, gawd yeah - they truly suck.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    On the ZE lenses, I've found that rotating the lens cap to sort of screw it into the filter thread helps to lock the lens cap in place. Not sure if it'll work on a ZM, but it works on my ZE's.

  10. #10
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    It's coming through the lens mount. So either my 25 & 50 ZM's aren't clamping tightly enough, or the lens mounts on them aren't completely flat. This only happens with these two out of a total of 8 lenses.

    no tape:


    tape around lens mount:


    The reason why there's so much less flare in the first shot than my previous examples is that this is my 50 C-Sonnar, which exhibits the phenomenon to a much lesser extent than my 25 Biogon did.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I just tried a ZM 25mm and ZM 35mm on my M8 and I see similar light leaks. It does not happen with a Voigtlander Ultron 28/2. Very strange.

    -Thomas

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Thanks Thomas, someone else seeing the same thing I have makes the problem a little more tangible for me. And makes me less forgiving of Zeiss who obviously need to crack the whip on their QC.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Daniel,

    Tested an additional ZM 28mm lens with the same results. I was able to reproduce it by shining a halogen desk lamp at the top of the lens mount.

    Seems to me that the Zeiss mounts might be a bit looser and therefore let in a bit of stray light. I only have one non-Zeiss lens to test with and that's the 28mm f2 Ultron which does not leak. What are your other lenses? Any Zeiss lens that doesn't leak?

    -Thomas

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Hi Thomas,

    My 18mm Distagon and 35mm C-Biogon don't leak, I've shot both extensively in direct sunlight for IR for 8s+ but both my 25mm Biogon and 50mm C-Sonnar (to a lesser degree) leak.

    Tony Rose at Popflash has been really awesome offering to replace my 25mm ZM, even though Zeiss blamed the M9 and said there was no way the lens would be the cause.

    my 25mm Biogon has the flange for 24/35 framelines, and my 50mm has been optimised for f/1.5. Both the 18mm and 35mm have their original bayonet flanges, might be something worth examining. Thanks again for doing the test!

    Dan

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Dan,

    All my ZM lenses have the newer flange with the groove. I bought my ZM 25 from Tony as well and I'll contact him next week to see if he has any news from Zeiss regarding this. Maybe they just have to swap the flanges out for some that are a bit tighter.

    -Thomas

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I just tried the 1,5/50 Sonnar and 2,8/25 Biogon ZMs and M8 again, but used bulb mode to get 8s. This time the results are a little different... Same setup as before, with the halogen light about 2" from the top of the lens. Now you can clearly see some light encroaching from the corner! In the shots below I cranked up the "exposure" slider in ACR to make the leak more obvious. It would seem that in the 25mm shot, I'm even getting a little of the "split screen effect" from the sensor. Hmmmm.

    The way I look at it is, if I have to shoot for 8s with a bright light 2" above the lens, I'm not going to worry about it. In normal, "every day shots" I haven't noticed anything. But this is of course, vastly different from your results which do.

    Disappointing to see another issue with the ZMs.

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    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I can confirm it's much the same with my 25mm Biogon. M8, 4 sec. exposure with a strong LED torchlight held at the one o'clock position produced this image. Somewhat brightened and increased contrast to make it more visible. First at ISO 1250, second at ISO 160. The last had to be brightened considerably. Like a few others here, I have never seen the leak in actual use. I tested my 35mm Biogon in the same way, no leak visible.




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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    ^ I should mention that I cranked up the "exposure" slider to the max in my posted images. On the rear LCD, only the 2,8/25mm Biogon image showed enough to be noticeable and you have to look for it (on standard brightness setting).

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I think I have found the source of the problem and a possible solution. It looks like the screw that is on the lens flange, where the cutout for the focus following arm is, happens to be right where there also is a screw in the mount on the camera. This is approx in the 1 O'clock position looking from the front of the lens/camera. Putting a small piece of gaffers tape on the screw on the lens flange seems to eliminate the light leak.

    Here is the screw on the lens (covered with a small piece of gaffers tape):


    And here is the screw on the body:


    This would only be a problem with the more recent ZM mounts where they moved the screws so not to interfere with the M8's lens coding.

    This also explains why my Ultron 28/2 does not show the leak. The corresponding screw is in a slightly different position. About 3/8 of an inch to the left looking from the front of the lens. Enough to be offset from the screw on the camera mount.

    -Thomas
    Last edited by trisberg; 25th April 2010 at 19:18.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Here is a "before" picture (ZM 25mm ISO 320, 4s.):


    And here is the same shot "after" (with tape on the screw head):


    Now we will have to see if Zeiss comes up with a permanent solution. Maybe a different kind of screw or a mount with the screw in a different position.

    -Thomas

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Interesting discovery! It all seems to make sense...

    I'm thinking a bit of black silicone in the screw hole might be a good solution as well.

  22. #22
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Thanks Thomas! Great work solving the problem

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Very interesting. I was going to come in here to say that mine did not do it, but that might be because mine is a very old one -- one of the first and it still has an original bayonet (though mine has been coded).
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    i just tried my new 21mm Zeiss biogon f2.8 and log exposure shots with the hood on are uniformly black.
    btw excellent lens.
    peter

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    i just tried my new 21mm Zeiss biogon f2.8 and log exposure shots with the hood on are uniformly black.
    btw excellent lens.
    peter
    So 8s+ with the lens cap on, in a reasonably bright light (like sunshine) is all black?

    Can you see if the screw on the lens is aligning with the screw on the body?

    I guess with some lenses the rear element/internal barrel will block any flare.

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Ok, problem solved on my 50 C-Sonnar, just put a little black silicone over the offending screw and no more problems even in direct sunlight.

    I also made an interesting discovery. Curious as to why my other two ZM's don't have this problem while my 25 and 50 do, I had a closer look at their flanges.

    On my 18mm Distagon, it turns out I have the older bayonet which is not as easy to code, so that answers that one.
    However, on my 35mm C-Biogon, which has the newer flange, it appears that the countersinking for the screws is MUCH more minimal than on the 50mm C-Sonnar. I think Zeiss know about the issue, or have a new QC issue they weren't aware of.

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I am about ready to buy a M9 and the zeiss 18, 25, and 35mm lenses from pop flash
    I assume I am going to have this problem
    Should I wait for a fix from zeiss?
    Steven
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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Steven I'd just go for it. You're unlikely to encounter the problem very often, and the fix is simple and inexpensive. The 18mm and 35mm don't have this problem, and I doubt Zeiss will issue a fix.

    Tony Rose at Popflash is my #1 guy to deal with in the camera industry, you can't go wrong buying from him.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Thanks for the info Daniel.
    I was for sure going to buy my zeiss lenses from Popflash.

    Steven
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    ...Should I wait for a fix from zeiss?
    I wouldn't worry about it, honestly. For one thing, it takes an eight second exposure with a bright light hanging literally over your lens. Unless you shoot like this regularly...

    As for a fix from Zeiss... Heh. I wouldn't hold your breath. If they do fix it, it'll be a silent fix for future lens versions (witness the new flanges on some lenses).

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I have three Biogons (25/2.8, 28/2.8 and 35/2) and they all show this leak. I think Daniel has a 35/2.8 Biogon C which has a different type of screw in the mount and this lens does not show the leak. So, depending on which 35 you are looking to get, it could show the problem.

    Either way, the leak isn't noticeable for most types of shooting situations. If it becomes a problem the fix is simple, just put some tape or silicone over the screw in the mount on the lens.

    -Thomas

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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Reposting my update here, in case anyone is following here but not on RFF.

    No contact from the Zeiss factory, but that was expected, I assume they're hoping the discovery of this design flaw just goes away.

    Tony Rose at Popflash.com replaced my lens (even though I let him know he didn't have to) which was very kind of him! I received the replacement lens today.

    Unfortunately the problem is not resolved, in fact it is much worse on the new lens! This is still with an ND filter, but taken at f/16 at 0.7s! That's a very short exposure and a result that could easily occur in real world environments. The leak is so intense that it caused the camera to meter the scene as a lot brighter than the light coming through the lens. This is as shot, -2/3 exposure comp, no processing. Look at that flare!



    Suffice to say I'm currently waiting for the Silicone to set on the lens and will re-post when that is finished.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    It sounds like your particular body is at the far end of the tolerance range. It may work fine with Leica's tolerances, but I guess not with Zeiss's. If you got two in a row that show this severe problem, and no one else is really getting the problem as badly as you (or even visibly in most cases), then it is the body/lens combo rather than just a faulty lens.
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    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Plenty of people are getting the problem, did you read the thread? or the one at RFF? I have not seen a SINGLE post of someone testing a 25mm ZM with the method I described on an M9 and not seeing the issue. A desk lamp is not a quantifiable light source, the sun is.

    Thomas right above me posted that he has the issue on 3 different ZM's, I've only had the issue on 25mm and 50mm, my 35/2.8 and 18/4 don't have the issue at all.

    Do you not get the issue at all on any of your ZM's with your M9 using the prescribed testing methodology above?

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I have not read the thread at RFF. I tried using my 25mm and M9, and I saw the faintest evidence of it being a bit brighter at 8 seconds at iso 2500 while shining a flashlight on it. There is no evidence of it in a normal exposure like you are getting. At least here, you seem to be the only one getting it in normal photography. Doing a long exposure with a flashlight shining on the lens is not really a real-world test...
    I am certainly not saying that you are not having a problem, I just think your problem is one of lens-body compatibility, not there being a fundamental problem with all 25mm biogons.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    No problems. just FYI the sun's intensity is approximately 650 times brighter than a flashlight, I guess if you only shoot in flashlight-lit environments not a problem!

    I'm testing with an ND filter at f/16 in direct sunlight. I'm planning to shoot waterfalls in New Zealand... I'd want much longer than 0.7s, hopefully I won't be in direct sunlight, but you know I'd expect a $1000 Zeiss lens to be fine on a body for which no incompatibilities are publicised.

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I stand corrected. I took my lens outside (today was sunny finally), and at 8s I did get obvious flare in the bottom corners. It still does not show up in normal photography for me (normal for me is f/5.6 or wider...I rarely stop down a lot or use neutral density filters). Looking carefully at the lens mount, I can see bits of the Leica screw holes peeping out from under the Zeiss lens mount. I do not see this with Leica lenses. I think the issue here is that the Leica mount is just a little larger in diameter, and it completely covers the screw holes in the mount...the Zeiss does not seem to.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Yes, you are right, the Zeiss mounts are just a tiny bit narrower than the mount on my Leica lens. Enough to expose a tiny bit of the screw on the camera mount and let a small amount of light through. All my Zeiss lenses also have the groove which makes it easier for the light to make its way past the mount.

    -Thomas

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I will add, however, that my other ZM lens is an 18mm. It has a coded mount that John Milich machined. It completely covers the screw holes. I have not had a chance to test it with the 8s test, but I have never noticed any leaks in normal shooting.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    My 18mm has a non-grooved mount, no leaking issues at all.

    Here is the result of 0.7s again (I'm gonna need stronger nd's for waterfalls I think) with the freshly modified 25mm Biogon:


  41. #41
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    None other than Dr Hubert Nasse is looking into this issue. I think everyone can sit tight and be sure Zeiss will come up with something solid.

    One thing that I have found out, is Cosina designed the grooved mounts for them, and moved the screws...

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Just curious, if you have an M9, wouldn't you prefer the old mount with the 28/90 lines, versus the interim (or is it permanent?) new flange with the 24/35/135 lines that was requested mainly by RD1/M8 users?
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    If you want it coded as a 24/2.8 elmarit, you still need the 24/35/135 framelines.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Are you sure about this? I thought only when coding a lens for a WATE code, did you need the proper framelines for coding recognition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    If you want it coded as a 24/2.8 elmarit, you still need the 24/35/135 framelines.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Yes. I am sure. You could just enter it manually in the M9, but if you want it to come up as a 24/2.8 automatically, you need both the coding and the proper bayonet/framelines. Leica uses both to identify the lens.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Stuart is right. Just tested on my M8 with my hand-coded ZM 25mm and if I move the frame line preview lever to the 28/90 position I no longer see the 24mm in the metadata as I do when the lever is in the 24/35 position.

    -Thomas

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I want the 24/2.8 coding. I use cornerfix for the red edge issue with all my wides (none 100% corrected with coding). I have over a hundred thousand images on his machine accumulated over the years (don't worry - double backed up), reasonably organised and exif helps.

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    Member Paul David's Avatar
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    For what it's worth, I am trying out 35mm Biogon f/2 and f/2.8 C on an M9. A tiny bit of a light leak on the compact, and lots on the f/2 at 2 seconds or more ISO 160. Seems to be leaking through a screw recess in the lens mount rather than on the lens, although doesn't leak with Leica lenses. A small piece of tape covering the area on the outside of the mount solves the problem. The f/2 is significantly sharper on the edges than the f/2.8 up to f/11, so I'll keep that one and put up with some tape on the occasions that I need an exposure longer than 2 sec in bright sunlight.
    Paul

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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    Over 100K images on an M8? or M9? Or am I mis-understanding this? Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    I want the 24/2.8 coding. I use cornerfix for the red edge issue with all my wides (none 100% corrected with coding). I have over a hundred thousand images on his machine accumulated over the years (don't worry - double backed up), reasonably organised and exif helps.
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    Re: ZM 25mm and M9

    I think he means on his computer, not taken with the camera.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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