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Thread: Advise needed pls

  1. #1
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    Advise needed pls

    Sold Leica M8 in Craigslist. It is about 3 weeks now.

    The buyer today emails me stating -
    I have been focussing issues with the camera - and had it sent to Leica in New Jersey to have it evaluated for problems - and there were quite a few - nearly 600 dollars worth.

    I know there is no return policy through craigslist - but the camera and photos sent to me from it didn't portray that there was misalignment with the focussing prism, and i do have small claims as a recourse (something I am not looking to do).

    But I would hope that we can come to an agreement - because this cost will now bring the camera to 2900. Your original price of 2500 is the asking price for pretty much any m8 in mint condition from a reputable dealer - i am comfortable leaving our price at that - but I would ask for a 400 dollar refund (i would be pleased to send you the estimate when it arrives - most likely by tomorrow or early next week) to cover the difference I am paying.


    I responded by offering to pay for the focus issue provided it is done by Sherry Krauter. I don't believe it cost $600 that Leica NJ claims.

    What else should I do if the buyer refuses my offer?

  2. #2
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    With regards to focus, M8s and M9s *all* are subject to focus issues depending on the particular lenses. I have sold brand new M9s that immediately went to DAG to be calibrated with customer lenses. This is the nature of rangefinders, especially digital RFs which must be much more precise than film.

    Nothing against Sherry, but DAG is unmatched for any sort of focus issues on M8s and M9s, he can turn them faster than Leica, and he's just as good if not better. He has very specialized equipment that I do not believe Sherry has. $600 is way too much to spend.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Thank you Monza. I will consider DAG as well.

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    Workshop Member Reynolds's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Indeed, Blimey, Don is just super with these issues. To wit, if there is no problem, there is no charge.

    Secondly, my brand new M9 with my three lenses had focusing issues galore. Don adjusted them precisely. Now, I no longer need eye surgery.

    Third, your buyer's lenses may be quite different from your lenses and be creating much of the problem. The camera and lenses should be evaluated by Don as a system.

    Hope all this helps!
    Best to all,

    Reynolds

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    The buyer does not have the right to dictate how you should address the problem. Fastest most equitable way is to send the body and one lens to DAG with the understanding that you pay for the body and the buyer pays for the lens. He charges $60 for a lens calibration assuming the lens is otherwise in good working order. He will sort it out .

    Do you think Leica really evaluated the M8 in less than 3 weeks from when you sold it ? My last quote for service was 3 months on a M8.2.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Do you all know what DAG's turn around time is? I have heard widely varying reports...from a few weeks to several months. What has your experience been?

    Best,
    Ashwin
    Ashwin Rao
    Seattle, WA
    My Photography

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    DAG calibrated my M9 and three lenses in three weeks, including shipping there and back.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    My experience with DAG recently has been about 4-6 weeks. For something like a RF adjustment he will quote closer to 2 weeks if you ask. Generally week one its in transit and you hear nothing . Week two you call and he promises to look at it. I always authorize the repairs to avoid a quote and another delay. He will let you know if you have a significant issue. I specify a need by date and always give him the latitude to miss it. Otherwise you just lose more time because you are asked to confirm that he can miss the date or should he send it back . Week 4-5 I get a invoice showing its done and pay up. Pay with paypal and its shipped . Average about 4-6 weeks .

    He told me he would calibrate an M9 in a week from when he gets it .

    The CLA on older bodies and lenses are given a lower priority and they can take a few months .

    My last lens just came back yesterday so thats pretty current.

  9. #9
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Roger is correct, if you call him, you can get him to commit to a turn-around. I've had him turn M9s in 2-3 days (plus shipping time) but he may take longer now.

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    Workshop Member Reynolds's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Here's what I had to say at the time Don had finished his work:

    Re: Another good job by DAG
    If I can add my two cents...

    I sent my M9 to Dave Elwell in NJ and he very quickly calibrated the rangefinder. I found Dave very helpful and great to deal with. But, I was still having focus problems. I was becoming very confused and frustrated as to what was happening and what part of the photographic equation was at fault...including me!

    With Mike Hatam's encouragement, I send my M9 and three lenses to DAG. Don inspected/adjusted them to perfection. They arrived in his shop on Monday, 1/18, and were back in my hands by 9:30a on Friday, 1/22. His email communication was fabulous with rates and schedule. He was just great to deal with. I really could not have asked for more.

    Great service and expert work. Don't hesitate to go with DAG!
    Best to all,

    Reynolds

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Maybe I'm just too skeptical by nature, but how do you know he didn't cause the rangefinder misalignment? Maybe he dropped the camera onto concrete sometime after you sold it to him. After all, it has already been 3 weeks - anything could happen in that amount of time. Honestly, he could have caused the issue himself and wants to have someone else pay for it. Sure, he could take you to small claims court - what is his proof that you sold him a problematic camera? You can certainly show your own perfectly focused photos with the M8.

    In addition, asking for $600 for repairs seems very fishy to me. My M9 had focusing issues out of the box, and when I emailed DAG to ask for a repair estimate, he replied RF adjustments are usually around ~$100.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    I sent the buyer proofs of the camera's dust and sample pic. http://gallery.me.com/mikeleviste#100527 In this gallery there is nothing wrong with the focus and the camera. These pictures were taken on April 20. The meeting for the transaction took place on April 21 in my building. I emailed him back again, that I will only pay for calibration done by DAG and that's it and that he can file a small claims and that I am ready to defend myself. I think Ive done everything from recommending DAG to deal with this focus issue.

    Why would DAG make this comment?

    On May 16, 2010, at 2:10 AM, Jason Simon Clancy wrote:

    Mike,

    Please see below - DAG can't make the repairs either.

    As soon as I get the printed invoice from Leica - I will send it to you - i trust you will reimburse me whatever you think is fair given your comment - and I will be fine with that.

    Best,
    Jason

    Begin forwarded message:

    From: Don Goldberg <[email protected]>
    Date: May 15, 2010 6:27:38 PM EDT
    To: Jason Simon Clancy <[email protected]>
    Subject: Re: Leica m8 repair?

    Jason,

    Leica will not sell the needed software & computer hookups in order for anyone to test & adjust the M8 camera so all I'm able to do is to adjust the rangefinder. Any other type of work/repairs that's needed will have to be done by Leica,

    Regards,

    Don
    DAG camera repair
    2128 Vintage Dr
    Oregon, Wi 53575
    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Simon Clancy" <[email protected]>
    To: <[email protected]>
    Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:40 PM
    Subject: Leica m8 repair?


    To whom it may concern:

    I have a quick question - i recently purchased a leica m8 second hand - but
    had some problems - i have sent it to lecia in NJ to have it evaluated and
    was given a quote today of nearly 600 to have it repaired.

    if i were to send you the quote would you be able to quote me how much you
    would charge to make the same repairs?

    I expect to have the quote by tomorrow early next week the latest.

    best,
    jason
    Last edited by blimey; 15th May 2010 at 23:17.

  13. #13
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    He probably answered that way because in the email, it was not specific as to the problems on the M8. DAG is probably under the impression that the email was referring to a main board or other circuit problem.
    Last edited by monza; 15th May 2010 at 23:47.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    That would make sense Monza.

    Going back to the transaction date. I got this confirmation from him about the camera. So panda81 is on to something here. Thank goodness I have all these documented in case I need to be in front of a judge.
    -----------
    On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:47 PM, Jason Simon Clancy <[email protected]> wrote:

    MIke -

    Very happy with the camera - in tip top shape - thanks again.

    One question - the Passport wasn't with the camera - in order to transfer the registration I believe I need it or a copy of it - is there anyway you can email me a copy so i can register the camera under my name?

    Best,
    Jason

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Don has calibrated my M8's in the past and just did my M9 & several lenses together recently. Even calibrating the M9, inspecting four lenses and calibrating two of them the total came to a lot less than $600 including next day shipping with $20k insurance. The entire service part came down to less than $300 I think - for everything.

    The note from Don would suggest that he's responding conservatively to a digital problem vs optical calibration.

    FYI - there is no passport warranty with the M8/M9 in the US. Registering the camera at Leica is as simple as you releasing the registration in the owner's section there (assuming that's where you registered it) or calling Leica. My friend did this successfully twice with the cameras I sold him. It doesn't transfer any warranty though obviously (unlike the Passport warranty which can be transferred elsewhere in the world).

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Hi Everyone - The estimate from Leica was emailed to by the buyer. Leica estimated $575.00 for the following issues (all seems related to focus):

    REPAIR RANGE FOCUS
    ADJUST R/F
    REPAIR FOCUS
    PERFORM PIXEL/COLUMN RESTORATION
    UPGRADE TO CURRENT STANDARD
    CHECK AND ADJUST FOR GOOD WORKING ORDER

    Does this warrant $575 for estimate?

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    "Upgrade to current standard" - that almost sounds like an upgrade from M8 to M8.2. I would call Leica to find out what each of these items actually means.

    Alternatively, I would just give the money back to the seller, get DAG to fix it up, then try and re-sell.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Quote Originally Posted by dannh View Post
    "Upgrade to current standard" - that almost sounds like an upgrade from M8 to M8.2. I would call Leica to find out what each of these items actually means.

    Alternatively, I would just give the money back to the seller, get DAG to fix it up, then try and re-sell.
    "Upgrade to current standard". I have this exact estimate on my DLUX4. It's just checking the camera is working order in my opinion. The M8 upgrade cost significantly more.

    Shutter + Sapphire Glass + Rangefinder Mask=$2,150.00
    Shutter & Sapphire Glass=$1,850.00
    Shutter & Rangefinder Mask=$1,600.00
    Shutter Only=$1,300.00
    Sapphire Glass & Rangefinder Mask=$1,550.00
    Sapphire Glass=$1,300.00
    Rangefinder Mask =$1,100.00


    I cannot provide him the cash back since I've used it already.
    Last edited by blimey; 17th May 2010 at 09:33.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Given the fact that you have a written statement from him that he was satisfied with the camera and also because he took possession from you (no mailing involved), I think you owe him nothing. A rangefinder could be knocked out of whack in the 3 weeks before he apprised you of a problem. Also, in your favor, are photos that show the camera working properly during the last days that you had it.
    I'd offer to split the DAG bill with him just in the spirit of trying to keep a buyer happy. If I remember correctly, I think the "Upgrade to current standard" is just upgrading to the latest firmware (if needed).

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Upgrade to current standard probably means update firmware to the latest.

    The answer is DAG.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Thanks everyone. I've suggested it countless time. The buyer believes DAG is not the answer. I've reiterated that I will pay in full the focus adjustment done by DAG in good spirit to make him happy and get his M8 in shooting mode ASAP. I told him I am done and I'll see him in small claims court with proofs. I should contact Judge Judy or Joe Brown or one of those shows they have on TV on dispute. At least, I'll get my 15 minutes of fame and check it off the list in life. =)

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Quote Originally Posted by blimey View Post
    Thanks everyone. I've suggested it countless time. The buyer believes DAG is not the answer. I've reiterated that I will pay in full the focus adjustment done by DAG in good spirit to make him happy and get his M8 in shooting mode ASAP. I told him I am done and I'll see him in small claims court with proofs. I should contact Judge Judy or Joe Brown or one of those shows they have on TV on dispute. At least, I'll get my 15 minutes of fame and check it off the list in life. =)
    I guess the bad karma that comes with backing out of a deal on my M8.2 comes around. Am I mistaken of wasn t it that you could not get paypal to change it to your credit card.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I guess the bad karma that comes with backing out of a deal on my M8.2 comes around. Am I mistaken of wasn t it that you could not get paypal to change it to your credit card.
    believe me Roger, i tried my hardest to work with you on the transaction. but it was too late since it was sold and i finally have everything verified with the CC link account. i wouldnt consider it bad karma, you eventually sold your m8.2 and there was no harm in your end. that was the best deal ive seen on the m8.2 with your track record.

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    Re: Advise needed pls

    I think you are being taken for a ride. The main part of this estimate is standard Leica speak for a CLA. I can show you a number of identical estimates. The only discrepancy is the focus repair, but I am convinced that the part of the letter you did not see mentions " impact damage"
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    Re: Advise needed pls

    blimey,

    I think you are actually being more than fair and would not be obligated to even help with the $100 rangefinder adjustment at DAG.

    He picked up the camera from you and accepted it. PERIOD - DONE. He should have brought a lens and checked the files with you. If you shipped it to him, I would say that any complaints would need to be expressed back to you within 3 days. The proposed solution would then come from you. Either to pay for repairs at your choice of location or to refund the camera.

    You never know what transpired in the next 3 weeks or if his lenses are not calibrated correctly.

    Wish him well and say good bye.

    Ray

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