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Thread: New 35 Lux announced

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    New 35 Lux announced

    Just came across this about the 35 Lux

    http://gizmodo.com/5540164/leica-upd...35-mm-f14-asph

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    yeah, they got it from Leica Rumors, who had it posted about a week back....
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    is there any differences physically between the old lux 35 and the new lux 35 ?
    How to tell which one is?
    thx u
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    new one is reportedly heavier, and will have a screw in hood. Old one has a clip-on hood...
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    That's great Ashwin.
    thx u for the information. I'm saving my Rupiah for it
    Leica M9 | SE 18 | Lux 24 | Lux 50 | ZM 35 | Nikon D700 | 35/1.8 | 45 PC-E | 50/1.4 | 70-200 VR II | SB 800+600 |SF 58|

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    It will be interesting to see the actual difference, because performance at close distance was not really a problem for the old version. As far as I am concerned, the only problem with the old one was focus shift, and that was only really a problem on digital. If they can keep all that was good about the old one and just remove the focus shift, then it might be interesting. Otherwise, I am curious to see how the lens draws -- the 35/1.4 ASPH version 1 (not the rare 35/1.4 aspherical) has a lovely look, bridging the new and old Leica lenses. Hopefully the new one has not inherited the harsher look of some of the newest lenses.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    It will be interesting to see the actual difference, because performance at close distance was not really a problem for the old version. As far as I am concerned, the only problem with the old one was focus shift, and that was only really a problem on digital. If they can keep all that was good about the old one and just remove the focus shift, then it might be interesting. Otherwise, I am curious to see how the lens draws -- the 35/1.4 ASPH version 1 (not the rare 35/1.4 aspherical) has a lovely look, bridging the new and old Leica lenses. Hopefully the new one has not inherited the harsher look of some of the newest lenses.
    Stuart

    My guess is that primary motivation of producing the new 35/1.4asph is twofold: (1) make it easier to produce..less dependence on special glass and elements (2) minimize the focus shift issues which must be showing up in high warranty repairs.

    All the new glass has the new signature (except for maybe the Noctilux where they really worked on the bokeh) . The new signature has higher resolution especially wide open and high contrast .. I think if they could hit 100% with a straight line on the MTF charts they would .

    When I look at a file taken with a 28/2 I often think.. beautiful rendering. When I take the same scene with 24/1.4asph ..I think crisp,sharp lots of detail. Depends on what you shoot which is appropriate . But the 35 1.4asph will look a little better than the 24/1.4asph and not quite as good as the 50 1.4asph. It will be better close up and will have sharper and harsher bokeh. You will feel the floating elements and its will not have the damping of the older (brass ) lenses.

    Those are my predictions and I would bet I will be close.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    I think you are going to prove out on this Roger. I often call the 28 cron the most "beautiful" of my lenses, and I happen to love every aspect of my 35 lux asph. It's plenty sharp wide open, displays no focus shift detectable in real images, and has just enough of a slightly damped contrast and soft bokeh, that I can't see how it can be beat unless one wants the higher contrast look the new one will have.

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    Member JimBuchanan's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by innerimager View Post
    ..... and I happen to love every aspect of my 35 lux asph. It's plenty sharp wide open, displays no focus shift detectable in real images, and has just enough of a slightly damped contrast and soft bokeh, that I can't see how it can be beat unless one wants the higher contrast look the new one will have.
    I can appreciate the fact that you like your 35 lux ASPH, but focus shift is not a variable trait among various samples of the mark. The design either has it or it doesn't, and the overwhelming voice and data is that they most all do, and thus the 3rd reformulation of the ASPH version proposes to do away with it with floating elements. This new lens will add to the focus shiftless lenses, the 50 lux ASPH, and 75 Sumi ASPH.

    Can you explain your statement, "displays no focus shift detectable in real images"?

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Jim, I think he means it does not diminish images in practice, but only in very deliberate measurement at MFD. I can attest to that, I shot a whole wedding at f/2.0 on that lens (when I used the 35 lux asph - which was often) with no pictures missing their intended focus point.

    One mistake he made though, the newer one will render identically, without higher contrast as it is the same optical formula with the groups behind the diaphragm floating.

    Also Roger is off the mark as well, as the optical formula has not changed, glass types will remain the same and the more elaborate focusing mechanism will mean construction is more complex and cost of building the lens will likely be higher.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Hi There
    Well, I think that the initial reason for this release is to cure the focus shift - which is obviously a design issue - I'm still confused by claims that it varies from lens to lens.

    Having decided to re-issue the lens I'm sure they will have taken the opportunity to bring it 'up to date'.

    I'm going to be a heretic here though - I don't much like the bokeh of the famous version IV - it seems to me to often be rather edgy and unpredictable. On the other hand, I rather disagree with the conventional wisdom that the current pair of similar lenses, the 50 lux and the 75 'cron are more clinical.

    I actually think that both of these lenses have delightful and gentle bokeh - never agitated, and the combination of this with the crisp micro-contrast and gentle roll-off makes them my favorites (yes, even over the much vaunted 28 'cron which I also have). I'm hoping that the new 35 'lux will be a stable mate of these two lenses and the new noctilux (which I don't have ).

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    I'd appreciate a link which has something definitive and sensible to say about focus shift and the 35mm asph lux..

    in the meantime I will continue pretending my chrome version doesnt have any dreaded fearful and scary 'focus shift'.


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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    BTW, has anyone followed the various prices quoted in Europe for this lens? Originally (in the Ukraine, where all bets are off), it was quoted at 3750 EUR plus VAT, then there were multiple plausible leaked documents saying 4823 EUR plus VAT, and now we are back to 3750 EUR again. The quoted US price hasn't budged from $4995 during this oscillation, nor has the UK price, which I forget. Of course, the Euro itself has varied wildly in value during this period. Are these prices firm, or will we see further changes?

    scott

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    BTW, has anyone followed the various prices quoted in Europe for this lens? Originally (in the Ukraine, where all bets are off), it was quoted at 3750 EUR plus VAT, then there were multiple plausible leaked documents saying 4823 EUR plus VAT, and now we are back to 3750 EUR again. The quoted US price hasn't budged from $4995 during this oscillation, nor has the UK price, which I forget. Of course, the Euro itself has varied wildly in value during this period. Are these prices firm, or will we see further changes?

    scott
    Hi Scott
    as I understand it the price is 3750 including VAT at 19%, so if your VAT rate is different then it'll be different. Of course, I could certainly be wrong!

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I'd appreciate a link which has something definitive and sensible to say about focus shift and the 35mm asph lux..

    in the meantime I will continue pretending my chrome version doesnt have any dreaded fearful and scary 'focus shift'.

    Hi Peter

    Hmm - I think Tim Ashley did some 'definitive' tests, and Leica have certainly acknowledged it as a feature of the lens. Never having owned the lens I can't remember the tests, but presumably you focus at around 2 metres at f1.4 on a point on a receding scale, and then change the aperture successively downwards and look at the point of correct focus - I remember seeing examples where the focus point at f1.4 was well out of focus at f2 until around f8 (where the dof rescued it again).

    But maybe you have a magic lens?

    all the best

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Scott
    as I understand it the price is 3750 including VAT at 19%, so if your VAT rate is different then it'll be different. Of course, I could certainly be wrong!
    The equivalent tax rate for Internet purchases sent to the US (or picked up in the EU by travelers to distant lands) is 0%. That makes 3750 EUR a $350 savings over the untaxed US price. I think it beats the UK price as well.

    I'm still puzzled about where the 4823 EUR came from, and disappeared back to.

    scott

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBuchanan View Post
    This new lens will add to the focus shiftless lenses, the 50 lux ASPH, and 75 Sumi ASPH.
    And the Noctilux ASPH too .

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBuchanan View Post
    I can appreciate the fact that you like your 35 lux ASPH, but focus shift is not a variable trait among various samples of the mark. The design either has it or it doesn't, and the overwhelming voice and data is that they most all do, and thus the 3rd reformulation of the ASPH version proposes to do away with it with floating elements. This new lens will add to the focus shiftless lenses, the 50 lux ASPH, and 75 Sumi ASPH.

    Can you explain your statement, "displays no focus shift detectable in real images"?
    Just as I said, I've never had an image (out of thousands) suffer from OOF because of focus shift shooting from 1.4 to 8. I even tested mine and found very tiny degree of shift that was covered by increasing DOF stopping down. I know this is not always true, but there are many happy users of this excellent lens who have reported the same experience as me.
    Last edited by innerimager; 18th May 2010 at 02:58.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    I have a magic lens. F/1.4 to F/5.6 in order, crops first, whole scene last. All shots at MFD
    f/1.4

    f/2.0

    f/2.8

    f/4.0

    f/5.6

    whole scene at f/1.4


    Oh and before someone asks, my 35 lux asph focuses perfectly at infinity wide open:

    Trust me, it's very sharp.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Not saying it doesn't shift, just saying it's not a real problem for me.

    Leica saw a demand, an opportunity to sell a bunch of new lenses, so they took it. They're also perfectionists and it's not that much more effort for them to re-manufacture the same optics in a different focusing mechanism.

    People slammed the 35 lux asph for shifting for so long I guess sales slowed down.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter

    Hmm - I think Tim Ashley did some 'definitive' tests, and Leica have certainly acknowledged it as a feature of the lens. Never having owned the lens I can't remember the tests, but presumably you focus at around 2 metres at f1.4 on a point on a receding scale, and then change the aperture successively downwards and look at the point of correct focus - I remember seeing examples where the focus point at f1.4 was well out of focus at f2 until around f8 (where the dof rescued it again).

    But maybe you have a magic lens?

    all the best
    Hi Jono,

    hmmmm so the focus shifts along a line away from a point either front or back accordign to aperture used?

    well that isnt a definitive test for me at all - in fact from my naive perspective it is a very silly test that says nothing much about anything much useful or interesting to me..- let me explain before being accused of being a bore...

    My 'definitive test is about how I make a photograph using any camera and any lens. First I look at the light and decide what is possible - then I consider how much DOF I wish to use and how much separation I wish to use - that pretty much delivers the aperture and speed combo required - then I focus and ..go click

    in this world the only focus shift that can occur is from a poorly aligned rangefinder or shaky hands - I have experienced both.

    Now if someone can point to me the relevance of the focus shift test - that would be interesting...is my aspherical ( with focus shift I can never see) a poor lens? really? In what away would this focus shift - have ANY baring on making ANY photo ever?

    Pete

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Peter,
    I have read that the chrome versions for whatever reason were less prone to focus shift than the regular versions.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    I had a Noctilux/1.0 and a 35/1.4asph - both were send to Leica together with my M8 for calibration of focus and tested by Leica.
    Still at closer distance They would not reliable focus at shorter distances wide open, but focus would be spot on when stopped down 1-2 stops.
    So IMO focus shift can be an issue for real world photography -maybe not for some people, maybe there is also sample variation, and maybe there are also some people who believe they havent focused accuratly (user error) but it was just focus shift.
    For me it meant I would get less keepers than I would get with some other lenses and it lead to frustration - even though it has been only a slight effect.
    I really liked the Noctilux rendering, but I could not handle that lens reliably.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Jono,

    hmmmm so the focus shifts along a line away from a point either front or back accordign to aperture used?

    well that isnt a definitive test for me at all - in fact from my naive perspective it is a very silly test that says nothing much about anything much useful or interesting to me..- let me explain before being accused of being a bore...

    My 'definitive test is about how I make a photograph using any camera and any lens. First I look at the light and decide what is possible - then I consider how much DOF I wish to use and how much separation I wish to use - that pretty much delivers the aperture and speed combo required - then I focus and ..go click

    in this world the only focus shift that can occur is from a poorly aligned rangefinder or shaky hands - I have experienced both.

    Now if someone can point to me the relevance of the focus shift test - that would be interesting...is my aspherical ( with focus shift I can never see) a poor lens? really? In what away would this focus shift - have ANY baring on making ANY photo ever?

    Pete

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    First part of Puts' review of the new lens:

    http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses.../SX35FLE1.html

    "focus shift is substantially removed and that the performance wide open and stopped down has improved in the close range domain from 1 meter to 3 meters"

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Jono,


    Now if someone can point to me the relevance of the focus shift test - that would be interesting...is my aspherical ( with focus shift I can never see) a poor lens? really? In what away would this focus shift - have ANY baring on making ANY photo ever?

    Pete
    Well, it certainly had a bearing for Tim, where he got a bunch of pictures out of focus. The point being (presumably) that whereas the lens can focus spot on at f1.4, then that spot may be out of focus at f5.6 (which is certainly a 'real world' problem). His discovered the issue shooting at the Venice shindig.

    Daniel's shot is interesting if you compare between f4 (where the bar in front (to the left) of the upright is largely in focus, but at f5.6 it is not.

    But hey - I'm only the messenger (shoot me if you like), I can honestly say I've never touched one of these lenses - but I've talked to enough people who believe it to be the case, and I've certainly seen cases where it is the case.

    I must say, I can see how it would vary theoretically between lenses - if, for instance, your lens is set up with your rangefinder to be spot on at f1.4, or worse, if it slightly forward focuses at f1.4 - then you may get problems by f4, however, if your lens is set up to be perfect at f1.8, then perhaps the increasing dof sorts out the whole range?

    Certainly, my Noctilux f1 could easily be shown to suffer, but I can't say it mattered to me that much.

    What is unquestionably true is that the older 35 1.4 'lux is a fine lens, and if you ain't getting focus shift issues (and I believe you Peter and Daniel - don't think for a minute that I don't!) , then it hardly matters whether it's there or not!

    all the best
    Last edited by jonoslack; 18th May 2010 at 08:44.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    All really depends on how much you "focus shift."

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    First part of Puts' review of the new lens:

    http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses.../SX35FLE1.html

    "focus shift is substantially removed and that the performance wide open and stopped down has improved in the close range domain from 1 meter to 3 meters"
    If you read Puts' article and inspect his numbers carefully, the numbers do not quite agree with the words. You have to ignore that he does not define the "quality factor" numbers which he reports, and the typo in which he reports an accuracy of +- 0.01 mm but means +- 1 cm. His experiment is to focus carefully and then move the camera back and forth 1 cm per step and record the "quality" of the test target image, taken on an M9. It's not clear whether a + movement which improves the image is moving the camera closer to the target, so that this uncovers front focus, or the reverse. I'll assume that + in his table means that the camera moves closer to the target. The new lens at f/1.4 then shows sharp focus at an indicated 135 cm actually occurs from 1.5 cm in front of the target to 3.5 cm in back of the target, with the sharpest plane just over 1 cm in back of his target. At f/2.8, the sharpest focus appears to occur at 4.5 cm in back of the target. While Puts correctly points out that the shift is about 3% of the focus distance, 3 cm is more than the depth of a nose -- the sort of focus error that drives some of us nuts.

    He compares with the previous 35/1.4-asph, for which the plane of sharpest focus shifts from 2.5 cm front-focused wide open to at least 5 cm back-focused at f/2.8 in this experiment (his table shows "quality" still increasing at 5 cm). So the focus shift has been more than halved, but not eliminated.

    The more important news is that pixel-peepers will see improved image clarity at useful distances, like 1-4 m, at least if his "quality factor" scale is meaningful.

    scott

    PS, if it turns out that Puts' + table entries mean that the camera was moved away from the target, then simply switch the words "back" and "front" everywhere in what I wrote above.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    .....
    Certainly, my Noctilux f1 could easily be shown to suffer, but I can't say it mattered to me that much.

    What is unquestionably true is that the older 35 1.4 'lux is a fine lens, and if you ain't getting focus shift issues (and I believe you Peter and Daniel - don't think for a minute that I don't!) , then it hardly matters whether it's there or not!

    all the best
    I totally agree-as long as one doesnt see or feel there are any issues than I wouldnt search for an issue.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Focus shift on this lens is an issue and it does affect the sharpness of your images. Its just darn hard to identify. The fence post is a good example. First look very carefully at the absolute focus point....the easiest way to find it is to examine the leading and trailing detail . I used to use the old 40/60 approximation ....slightly more depth of field behind the focus point. I now understand that this changes with focal length..so use 50/50 for a 35mm lens. So now you feel pretty good that you know the exact point of focus..a spot on the post. Look through the images and you can see the focus point shift. The focus point moves back as you stop down.

    A good away around this is to optimize the focus at around 1.8/2.0 allowing f1.4 to be just a little front focused. This keeps the focus shift just about within the range of acceptable sharpness. Where most photographers would give you credit for nailing the focus. This is how my 35/1.4asph is calibrated. I did this with the technician at Leica NJ and I was in the shop doing the testing with him. This places the focus point at 1.4 about 1cm front at 2M ..its that close.

    Two problems most tests don t show.(1) Focusing at intermediate distances ....the small acceptable errors are magnified into clean misses. How exactly can anyone say ..I never had a problem? You never missed focus..was it you or the lens...how would you know unless you tested for this. (2) Focusing on a parallel target....here any slight focus issue (calibration,photographer variable,focus shift) just results in less resolution. How would you know?

    The 2nd is what Puts test is designed to show ....you can still get excellent results with a little focus shift but its not the best the lens is capable of. This is why Sean Reid takes a half a dozen captures and picks the best ..he is trying to eliminate the loss of resolution due to a focusing variable. I think what Puts is saying is that by minimizing focus shift ....you actually can improve the lens performance by a material amount .

    Typically my street shooting is done in week long dedicated efforts . I shoot about 2000 captures over a week hope for 20-24 worthy images. Granted there is a lot of movement in street photography...the subject, me or both of us. Loss of sharpness due to misfocus is the number one reason to reject an image. I do think you could argue that most problems are calibration verse the focus shift inherent in the lens design...but this is difficult to test.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by innerimager View Post
    Just as I said, I've never had an image (out of thousands) suffer from OOF because of focus shift shooting from 1.4 to 8. I even tested mine and found very tiny degree of shift that was covered by increasing DOF stopping down. I know this is not always true, but there are many happy users of this excellent lens who have reported the same experience as me.
    I don't deny it!

    The focus shift moves back as one stops down. My 35 Summicron ASPH has it, but at wide f/2.0 is right on focus. Stopping down just does cover the focus shift.

    The 35/1.4 ASPH is worse. In fact, I would presume that there could be a spot at f/2.0 that could be out of focus that was in-focus at f/1.4. Add to that the variability of the focusing mechanism, and that is what all the talk is about.

    Surely, the probability of focus, with all the varibles, is in play somehow, here.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Peter,
    I have read that the chrome versions for whatever reason were less prone to focus shift than the regular versions.
    Excuse me, but that is ridiculous.

    The chrome versions, being made of more brass than the black aluminum versions, could have better feel/action, but thats it.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Now if someone can point to me the relevance of the focus shift test - that would be interesting...is my aspherical ( with focus shift I can never see) a poor lens? really? In what away would this focus shift - have ANY baring on making ANY photo ever?
    Pete
    Does anyone here know how to measure focus shift?

    M8/9 on a tripod with focus target at 1 meter or so. Could be a page of text at a 30 degree angle.

    Adjust the focus point to a line of text at wide open aperture, by exposure/inspect on LCD, etc.

    Then take exposures stopping down one stop at a time.

    view at 100%, and you will have your answer.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBuchanan View Post
    Excuse me, but that is ridiculous.

    The chrome versions, being made of more brass than the black aluminum versions, could have better feel/action, but thats it.
    Plenty of posts were written about this over the past several years. If you search here and LUF you will find the posts. Here is one thread

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...+chrome&page=2

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    In general, I've found most Leica 35mm Lux ASPH lenses are adjusted one of two ways.

    1. The first is basically as Roger described, where the lens is adjusted to slightly front focus at f1.4 and possibly just minisule amount at f2. Upon stopping down any further, the growing size of depth of field will generally cover any rearward focusing shift through f8 etc...keeping the subject weel within this zone of focus.

    2. The second way I've seen these lenses set up is as Jono described, where the lens focus is adjusted to be "dead on" at f1.4, putting the subject well withing the depth of field at this aperture. Upon stopping down, the focus point shifts rearward and the subject quickly exists (is outside) the depth of field by f2 and continues to do so till around f6.7-f8.0. The larger depth of field that results upon stopping down the lens isn't large enough while shifting rearward to keep the subject in the zone of focus (until almost f6/7-f8).

    Most shooting film, don't notice focus shifts with this lens since they are not examining at high maginification. Likewise, many of those shooting digital also don't always notice the focus shifts unless they are examining images closely, espcially 100% crops.

    There are of course variations of the senarios I described, but of all the 35mm Lux ASPh's I've tested, most fall generally into these two catagories, when tested very carefully in carefully set-up and controlled tests.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBuchanan View Post
    Excuse me, but that is ridiculous.

    The chrome versions, being made of more brass than the black aluminum versions, could have better feel/action, but thats it.
    Keep in in that most users can t separate focus shift from calibration issues. If the lens focus point is slightly back focus and then focus shift kicks in you have a back focus variance that can be greater than your perceived DOF.

    The tolerances considered(by Leica) as "in specification" allowed for a more forgiving film assumption. Many of the summiluxes tended to be at one end of this range (tending toward back focus). To stay within this range the summiluxes were often individually shimmed. This caused Leica fits when they started to change out mounts in order to roll out the 6 bit coding. A summicron by contrast could exchange a mount with little impact on the calibration.

    I am not certain exactly why ....but pulling the focus point forward is difficult on many of the summiluxes. Those with brass mounts seem to have been easier to calibrate toward the middle of the range.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Jono - I am not in the business of shooting anyone and am quite relaxed really about the whole topic. I think i have sold two Leica M lenses a few years ago and t this day regret it..and certainly not defending the poor old sick 35mm lux for personal gain or profit reasons..

    TEB - some say teh chrome version is better - I dont know - I just happen to have a chrome version..which I buy in foal lengths and type whnever I can because the just look sexy

    I do know how to do a focus test - just liek I know ( theoretically how to jump off cliffs , and ride unbroken horse the thing is as you get older - and I am officially middle aged now passing 40..you get to be more particular about use of time

    the whole premise of the focus test is so funny and I mean o hilarious to me I just larf

    lemme see know I use a tripod focus on a page with letters or a ruler with lines ( pity no one builds sloping brick walls for focus test huh) and then shoot the same shot @ various apertures..


    then..pt files into computer and check m out @ 100% or 200% or whatever..and wala!

    ahhahahhahahah

    so funny..

    versus my hand hold shoot at aperture that you wish to use given the varables and outcomes that you need to consider ..focus and click.

    one thing has got somethign to do with photography - the other thing is just ..ummm

    funny.


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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Jono - I am not in the business of shooting anyone and am quite relaxed really about the whole topic. I think i have sold two Leica M lenses a few years ago and t this day regret it..and certainly not defending the poor old sick 35mm lux for personal gain or profit reasons..

    the whole premise of the focus test is so funny and I mean o hilarious to me I just larf

    lemme see know I use a tripod focus on a page with letters or a ruler with lines ( pity no one builds sloping brick walls for focus test huh) and then shoot the same shot @ various apertures..


    then..pt files into computer and check m out @ 100% or 200% or whatever..and wala!

    ahhahahhahahah

    so funny..

    versus my hand hold shoot at aperture that you wish to use given the varables and outcomes that you need to consider ..focus and click.

    one thing has got somethign to do with photography - the other thing is just ..ummm

    funny.

    Wellllllll I rather agree with you (until we get tilting brick walls)
    However, if you aren't going to test for it, I don't think you can really say you haven't got it?. You can certainly say
    it isn't important, or
    it doesn't affect me, or
    only sad bastard pixel peepers would care
    (come to think of it, I think you just said that )

    Just this guy you know

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Wow this thread sure degenerated into total BS. Most photographers would prefer to have something sharp in their images(some exceptions of course). We buy ultra expensive M glass because of its high performance and would reasonably like to get the best out of it. In general its reasonable to seek a high level of IQ . Focus shift affects all three. How is that funny or did you mean to say "a stupid waste of time" ?

    The most significant controllable variable in an M systems IQ is focus point. Understanding your equipment and how it performs is an important element in being able to control your focus point. Having your equipment calibrated to perform to its specification, optimizing your vision thru diopters/magnifiers/contacts/glasses so that you can see to focus and practicing/or shooting enough so that your technique is a routine are the three cornerstones of achieving accurate focus.

    The thread was about the new 35 lux. One of the benefits that Leica is touting is the lack of focus shift ...an improvement over the existing 35 lux .

    E. Puts does a nice job of showing you to what extent focus shift at different apertures impacts IQ.

    If you subscribe to Reid reports you will see that he struggles to test M glass. The differences in performance can frequently be thrown off by even minor focus differences. The zeiss lens is a dog not because of its design but because its focus point was off by the smallest amount.

    Diglloyd another subscriber test site also speaks to the issue of focus shift in certain lenses and the impact on his lens tests.

    So what it doesn t seem to show up much? Placing a relative value on minimizing focus shift depends ,of course , on your photography requirements but I think its fair to say that its an improvement that will be appreciated by many.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Keep in in that most users can t separate focus shift from calibration issues. If the lens focus point is slightly back focus and then focus shift kicks in you have a back focus variance that can be greater than your perceived DOF.

    The tolerances considered(by Leica) as "in specification" allowed for a more forgiving film assumption. Many of the summiluxes tended to be at one end of this range (tending toward back focus). To stay within this range the summiluxes were often individually shimmed. This caused Leica fits when they started to change out mounts in order to roll out the 6 bit coding. A summicron by contrast could exchange a mount with little impact on the calibration.

    I am not certain exactly why ....but pulling the focus point forward is difficult on many of the summiluxes. Those with brass mounts seem to have been easier to calibrate toward the middle of the range.
    So, the chrome versions are easier to adjust focus than the black versions? OK, but the focus shift is still there. The referenced link to this topic dosen't reveal any meaningful info on the subject.

    I'm OK with moderate focus shift, as long as 1 or 2 stops down, I don't loose the point of sharp focus (the widening of DOF covering the shift). The 35 Lux apparently has more, where one does loose the point of sharp focus (no firsthand experience). The common workaround is to adjust the point of sharp focus forward a bit to compensate.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    HI Roger
    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    So what it doesn't seem to show up much? Placing a relative value on minimizing focus shift depends ,of course , on your photography requirements but I think its fair to say that its an improvement that will be appreciated by many.
    I'm not sure that it's BS (although the quality of typing does leave a little to be desired . I'm sure that most of us would agree with Peter that the pictures are more important than the tech . . . and it took quite a long time to realise that the lens did exhibit focus shift.

    I learned to deal with the focus shift on the Zeiss 50 sonnar, but now I'm using a 50 'lux asph it's very nice not to have to think about it.

    Seems to me to be a worthy upgrade, and one I'm saving my pennies for.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    I have shot with the new Lux though only wide open, and I have seen MANY shots with it taken at all apertures.

    My results have shown that it does indeed have the look of the newer lenses. VERY crisp at 1.4 with shockingly good detail and separation. One shot I snapped at 1.4 looks like a shot from the 24 Lux at 1.4 but sharper at my focus point. I see a difference between it and the old version and not sure if that is due to the focus being dead on or if there is another reason.

    The old version, well, they all have focus shift. Some are calibrated for 1.4, some for F2. The samples above that daniel posted show that his is calibrated for F2, or maybe even 2.8 as that is what gets him the sharpest result. By F5.6 you see the focus is off a bit.

    My past 35 Lux was set up for 1.4 and had slight softness due to shift at F2, F2.8. The new version will give you the reliability of the 50 Lux ASPH, and IMO will become the #1 seller for Leica, even over the 50 Lux ASPH.

    At $5,000 it's tough to swallow but most of us here are used to these prices. We try to resist but it's almost impossible! BTW, the new hood is MUCH better than the old hood. Small, solid, and looks great. I'll have a pretty detailed and huge write up on this lens very soon on film and digital.

    Steve
    Leica M8, M9 & Lens Reviews!
    http://www.stevehuffphoto.com

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ....

    the whole premise of the focus test is so funny and I mean o hilarious to me I just larf

    lemme see know I use a tripod focus on a page with letters or a ruler with lines ( pity no one builds sloping brick walls for focus test huh) and then shoot the same shot @ various apertures..


    then..pt files into computer and check m out @ 100% or 200% or whatever..and wala!

    ahhahahhahahah

    so funny..

    versus my hand hold shoot at aperture that you wish to use given the varables and outcomes that you need to consider ..focus and click.

    one thing has got somethign to do with photography - the other thing is just ..ummm

    funny.

    I also dont like focus tests but I also dont see why I would use a $3-5k lens if I accept slight unsharpness of the main subject caused by focus shift
    I also dont like to get only 3 out of 10 good shots if I could get maybe 8 out of 10 if my lens would not have focus shift.
    I also dont like to pay $3-5k for a lens which is either optimized for f1.4 or f2.8.
    I also have a 50 Sonnar and find that it suffers less from focus shift than both the 35/1.4asph and the Noctilux f1.0.
    Anyways- all what counts if one is happy with the results or not - but saying focus shift is something which is just a pixel peeper issue is not true.
    In my case I explored focus issues in real world photography and focus test was only the "tool" to find out the reason.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    If making sure your ruler lines are in focus from a meter floats your boat - go ahead sailor!

    However - other people don't see the fatal flaws that pixel peepers see - pixel peepers might be right about pixel peeping issues - but their fetishes aren't the dominant paradigm regarding photo graphy..

    If people arent happy with their focus sell the lens and by a focus shift less version by all means
    simple

    but please don't confuse your audiences in forums like this with universal relevance.

    Photography in the main has personal relevance - and idiosyncratic significance.

    for example - I collect and buy photography and display it in my own gallery.

    In my world - the last thing I look for in a photograph is the stuff that some of you pixel heads gnash your teeth and pull your hair over..

    from your perspectives though - I can understand how ridiculous and obscene a view like mine may present on first or second blush and maybe third

    one day though..one day..you might just wake up.

    good luck with that.

  44. #44
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    Well, I think that the initial reason for this release is to cure the focus shift - which is obviously a design issue - I'm still confused by claims that it varies from lens to lens.
    jono, i am confused myself. apparently focus shift is a design issue, but it may be made better or worse depending on production tolerances...maybe. i have tried a black new 35mm CRON and a black new 35mm LUX and focus shift was apparent in even simple test shots. then i received and finally bought a used titanium 35mm LUX and i could not detect focus shift. maybe on an optical bench it will show but not in even accurately set up test series. very strange indeed, but also others have claimed that the silver and titanium versions of the 35mm LUX are less prone to exhibit focus shift. i do not understand enough of lens design and lens fabrication to be able to give a reasoning for this but i shall definitly skip the new 35mm LUX and stick to my beautiful old titanium one.
    peter

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    but please don't confuse your audiences in forums like this with universal relevance.
    I So do agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Photography in the main has personal relevance - and idiosyncratic significance.

    for example - I collect and buy photography and display it in my own gallery.

    In my world - the last thing I look for in a photograph is the stuff that some of you pixel heads gnash your teeth and pull your hair over..

    from your perspectives though - I can understand how ridiculous and obscene a view like mine may present on first or second blush and maybe third

    one day though..one day..you might just wake up.

    good luck with that.
    Oh Peter - I completely agree with you about the priorities, but nobody is suggesting that ruler pictures are an end in themselves (are they?).

    I don't see why a feeling for photography and pixel peeping are mutually exclusive.

    Better tools does not make for better photography, but it may help to make better photographs (otherwise why bother to use Leica in the first place).

    Tim Ashley's original investigation was prompted by a lot of ruined photographs from Venice - not as the result of a pixel peeping excercise. The fact that it doesn't impinge on your photographs doesn't mean that it isn't relevant . . . just that it isn't relevant to you.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    .....
    If people arent happy with their focus sell the lens and by a focus shift less version by all means
    simple
    ....
    Thats exactly what I did, use the 50/1.4asph instead of the Noctilux and the 35 Summarit instead of the 35/1.4asph.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    .....
    ....but please don't confuse your audiences in forums like this with universal relevance.
    ....
    Confusing the audience would be insisting that the effect can not be seen in real life photography. Now if it matters or not to someone or his type of photography is another story and everybody can decide on his own.
    The 35luxasph is a beautiful lens, and while it might work well for many it might not work without flaws for others.
    I believe it also depends on what subjects one uses the lens for.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    WTF does wanting to have your equipment perform in a consistent manner have to do with pixel peeping. Its fine to indicate that "focus shift" has little impact on your personal photography and quite another to suggest that "pixel peeping" is the end in itself. Thats damn insulting .

    Focus shift is just one of many factors that can affect sharpness and IQ. What makes it particularly bothersome is that its hard for the photographer to adapt. This takes away getting into the flow and letting the photographer focus on the key elements in the photograph. Sure Jono can learn to adjust for the focus shift on his Zeiss sonnar but damn it better be a great lens to be fiddling with the focus point instead of seeing the photograph. (I believe he came to the same conclusion).

    I don t start out testing every lens and body combination and I don t waste my time doing "stupid ruler tests" just for the hell of it. I look at the images . I keep track of the edits. Like it or not I loose otherwise excellent images because I missed the focus point needed to "make the photograph work". The goal is always to have adequate sharpness to make the image work as a photograph ....please don t imply otherwise by labeling my discussion as pixel peeping.

    But lets not confuse any of the facts with a good hardy opinion based discussion of a new lens. Lets ignore the references to E Puts who has set the standard for lens testing for how many years? IMHO and thats all we have here since we know facts are not considered relevant....Puts did a good job showing the impact of focus shift on image quality . Or the tests that Sean Reid does where he shows that accurate focus (harder to do with focus shift) has more impact on lens performance that the difference between any of the current 35mm lenses from leica,zeiss or cv.

    Or even Diglloyd.....he takes quite a lot of pride in his testing (so that you don t have to waste your time) . He isn t a rangefinder guy..his normal kit would be Nikon or Canon DSLR. I could see him struggle (like many on this forum) with the M9 . Lens tests ruined by misfocusing...results that just don t reflect any consensus on lens performance. (e.g.does anyone think that the 35 asph summicron is anything but very sharp?) Now after a dozen tests he is sending his M9 and the noctilux,21 and 24 summiluxes back to Leica for calibration. Sometimes it takes a while to understand what it takes with a particular system to create sharp images.

    I spend a lot of time looking at great photographers and top rate image oriented websites(not reading MTF charts or shooting rulers) ...sharpness rarely makes the image (dried paint is dried paint) but lack of sharpness can kill an otherwise excellent photograph.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    HI Roger

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Sure Jono can learn to adjust for the focus shift on his Zeiss sonnar but damn it better be a great lens to be fiddling with the focus point instead of seeing the photograph. (I believe he came to the same conclusion).
    Exactly I bought a 50 'lux - these days the sonnar is making an excellent fast portrait lens on my son's Pen.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I spend a lot of time looking at great photographers and top rate image oriented websites(not reading MTF charts or shooting rulers) ...sharpness rarely makes the image (dried paint is dried paint) but lack of sharpness can kill an otherwise excellent photograph.
    So nicely Put.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Hi All,

    I completely agree with Roger's assesment as to why it's important to observe and know your individual lenses and performance. Before the days of internet and info and word of mouth, every time I aquired a new lens (whether new or used)...I shot rolls of film testing out the focus and optical quailites of each lens...both in static and real world tests. Darn,

    I have over a 100 boxes of these tests stored away and it cost a fortune. I'd examine the resulting images in great detail...getting to know the optical characteristics of each lens (or sample) and it's strenghts and weaknesses. Then each time I'd pick up and use that lens (especially when used on a paid job)...and I'd know exactly how to exploid the strenghts of that lens, and avoid or work around its weaknesses. Whether these weaknesses were focus shifts, lack of resolution in the corners at certain apatures and so on. This was important as there were no digital cameras and instant feedback to say for example, "oops, I have to move the focus a bit due to focus shift"...or say "darn, I didn't know corners would be unsharp at that distance or apature"..or any one of a number of critical parameters to be aware about. In essesence it was a form of pixel peeping but felt it was necessary in order to understand why a certain lens would or not would perform as expected under certain situations.

    Which reminds me of a particular DSLR zoom that had tremendous resolving power when stopped down and was exeptional for landscapes. Yet my knowledge from testing it previously, warned me that the geometric distortion from this lens on the wide end was so horrific, that using it for group shots was a nightmare.

    Once though after doing these intitial tests, I knew intuitively what to do and expect with a given lens once mounted on the camera and concentrated on imagery. I guess its no different than a person who races cars. He gets to know each car and what its characteristics are...can he push it in the corners, can he floor it, in order to pass without blowing a gasket etc. My appologies, I know nothing about racing cars, but I hope my point is understandable. Testing lenses is so you get top know them and their unique and desirable and undesirable characteristics..and once done, use them for your intended purposes.

    Dave
    Last edited by D&A; 20th May 2010 at 06:45.

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    Re: New 35 Lux announced

    Hi Thrice, Those are very nice shots, and you have a very nice lens. However, I do see focus shift. It's not that the focus isn't where you want it, it's just that your point of focus within your DOF range is moving. You can't control when you focus on an object, where in the DOF range for that given distance, and your selected aperture is. I hope this makes sense. Sean Reid's subscription articles give better examples, along with good 100% crops of examples.
    My Photography Blog here

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