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Thread: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

  1. #51
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Having used a Blad for years, I would be on the other side of the square issue I guess. If you have enough resolution, i.e. pixels to start, then it really does not matter how you crop, you will still have enough rez for a large print, saying that if I can extrapolate up from say an M8 sensor[as a minimum]. For the few or many times square does work, then you have even more pixels to use and the maximum amount possible of pixel landscape as a basis for a given image circle[corners notwithstanding]. Lastly, not tilting camera, no matter how easy it is to tilt a small 35mm based system, is still easier then tilting.....thus the mantra of the ultimate couch potato philosophy...:-).
    JMHO....

  2. #52
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I sold my DMR after weighing all pros and cons back in October last year. The main reason was of course not quality issues I had, but I heard all these rumors about the R10 and actually it does not matter if it will be FF or even larger, one thing is pretty clear, that it will be AF. Now to what extent one will be able to use existing R glass is not clear, I am sure it will be possible, but of course only MF.

    Now I was thinking, if a new R10 comes, being FF and having AF, then I would definitely buy it only in combination with at least 1 or 2 AF Zooms, and so I decided to sell my DMR and R9 as long as I could get some reasonable money out of it. And also my R zooms (21-35 and 28-90). I kept my 19, 100APO and 180 APO for manual operation on the future R10 And I sold my R9, since I did not do a single analog photo since the last 5 years or so. And if I want to do I still have a M6 and M7.

    I also was pretty relaxed in selling this, since I am using my M8 with several M glass coded and I am loving this system more and more. So I have time to see what the R10 will become, how prices will come up and then I still can decide if I want to jump on this.

    So of course everybody may have different motivations for keeping/selling the DMR. But I am confident a future R10 will outperform the DMR/R9 combo by far

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Actually, I think 4:3 makes the most sense for a DSLR --- rectangular enough to show a significant difference between vertical and horizontal frames and the DSLR is easy to orient vertically or horizontally. Square makes some sense for MF as it is less convenient to lay them over on their sides, but it is so easy to do with a DSLR that the square would translate to wasted or unused sensor area for most shots with them.

    My .02...
    Hey Jack and Guy

    The new Nikon D3 has a 5x4 options which is great if you want to print 16x20 or 24x30 without cropping. So I think a 5x4 ratio may have some advantages. Love to hear your thoughts on this

    by the way I followed the workshop photos from Moab with great anticipation each day. I live only six hours from Moab and try to get there at least twice a year. You guys provided some absolutely spectacular shots. Very talented bunch of folks to be sure and sounds like you all had a great time. Wish I could have been there but when looking at the snow and hearing about the cold kind of made me glad i was here in South Florida on a six week vacation with my grandchildren

    Best

    Woody

  4. #54
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    "But I am confident a future R10 will outperform the DMR/R9 combo by far."

    I'm not so sure about that. Many digital capture cameras produce a unique signature and subsequent "improvements" don't always maintain those qualities. This is frequently the case when certain lenses are coupled with a specific DSLR. I took note of this when using Zeiss 500 series MF lenses with a 645 22 meg sensor ... which looked better than the same lens used with an "improved" 39 meg sensor.

    Here's my twisted logic for keeping the DMR:

    If the new R10 presents a new mount and set of AF lenses, the DMR will be the only access to lenses like the 35/1.4 and 80/1.4. to name a few. I doubt Leica will offer these optics in a new mount (they have discontinued the M75/1.4 as an indication).

    If the R-10 is AF but also offers focus confirmation for existing lenses, then the DMR will be a less expensive back-up to what promises to be a a wallet ravaging R10 ... and provides access to film capture for those so inclined (me being one of those so inclined).

    The value of the DMR is in the using. if you have lenses why let them sit idle for over a year while waiting for a R10?

  5. #55
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    When my R8 mirror developed problems I was sure that I'd get it repaired and continue to use my DMR and fine Leica optics forever. Of course now that its been about 7wks since I took my camera to Fred and he sent it off to Leica, and I still don't have a firm answer on what it needs or will cost to fix let alone when I will have it back for use. I may have even posted earlier in this thread waxing about how great the DMR is, etc. Anyhow during this break, I have found many ways to use my MF gear where I would have used my DMR. The 6008 AF and my Rollei/Schneider lenses really make a nice file when I get it right. I still love my DMR but do I really need it? In the early part of this break, I almost bought an R9 but held off. Now I'm vacillating. Hmmm... Maybe I should sell it all and buy a better back for my Rollei? Got quite a collection of lenses including the 35-70 elmarit, 21-35mm, 50 & 80 lux, 50 cron, 100 apo, 70-200, 35 curtagon, 28mm all ROM. What do you all say? Keep the faith? Or sell the DMR, keep the lenses for R10? Sell everything?
    Last edited by EH21; 1st March 2008 at 11:05.

  6. #56
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    When my R8 mirror developed problems I was sure that I'd get it repaired and continue to use my DMR and fine Leica optics forever. Of course now that its been about 7wks since I took my camera to Fred and he sent it off to Leica, and I still don't have a firm answer on what it needs or will cost to fix let alone when I will have it back for use. I may have even posted earlier in this thread waxing about how great the DMR is, etc. Anyhow during this break, I have found many ways to use my MF gear where I would have used my DMR. The 6008 AF and my Rollei/Schneider lenses really make a nice file when I get it right. I still love my DMR but do I really need it? In the early part of this break, I almost bought an R9 but held off. Now I'm vacillating. Hmmm... Maybe I should sell it all and buy a better back for my Rollei? Got quite a collection of lenses including the 35-70 elmarit, 21-35mm, 50 & 80 lux, 50 cron, 100 apo, 70-200, 35 curtagon, 28mm all ROM. What do you all say? Keep the faith? Or sell the DMR, keep the lenses for R10? Sell everything?
    Keeping R glass for R10? Hmmmm

    Not sure what glass to keep makes some sense. I sold all my R Zooms, because if I ever would buy a R10 I would also buy the new AF zooms. I kept only a few primes - ike the 100APO.

    Different considerations might be true for others of course. But main thing is that one should understand that R glass will only have very limited useability on an AF body and maybe larger sensor size

  7. #57
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Yes, you could be right - if its full frame which I doubt mainly because there are no sensors that would fit that description on the Kodak KAF product list or on the Dalsa product list. I'm betting on full frame only not more. I'm also betting that Leica's first venture into AF is not going to be better than say Canon or Nikon with very mature systems with 45 or 50 points that still don't always work the way you want them to. In other words, I'll bet in the hands of an experienced shooter it won't matter much. For those people the high cost of the newer lenses relative to used lenses will be hard to justify, based on AF alone. Of course we do know that Leica draws a lot of customers from people that rarely shoot, almost pure collectors, and for that reason I'm sure the AF lenses will sell. I'm prepared to eat my words if it turns out that Leica hits a home run with the new system - actually I hope they do.
    Last edited by EH21; 6th March 2008 at 00:46.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    For those people the high cost of the newer lenses relative to used lenses will be hard to justify, based on AF alone. Of course we do know that Leica draws a lot of customers from people that rarely shoot, almost pure collectors, and for that reason I'm sure the AF lenses will sell. I'm prepared to eat my words if it turns out that Leica hits a home run with the new system - actually I hope they do.
    I disagree that AF will be hard to justify or sell. It would revolutionize their customer base, and the "collectors" you mention can fight over the existing "collector" lenses : -) A few "Leica" Quality AF lenses will go a long way toward expanding the appeal of the R system to a number of discerning shooters in need of the AF feature in their work.

    Personally, give me a R10 with a full frame 24X36 16 meg sensor (so the photo-sites don't get to crammed in and ISO 1600 looks good) and an AF 24-85/3.5 constant aperture ASPH Zoom to start with ... while providing focus confirmation in viewfinder for my legacy optics ... and I'm there with my wallet at the ready. Bye, bye Canon, Nikon and all the other 35mm type DSLRs. Deliver an AF 35/1.4, 80/1.4 and a new 180/2.8 APO and I'd be there in a NY nano second.

    In the words of the Everly Brothers ... "all I want to do is dream, dream, dream ..."
    Last edited by fotografz; 15th April 2008 at 06:44.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Yes please!
    EH21 -- as a user of both the DMR and the 6008AF (on film), I would suggest waiting on the R10 and keep shooting film on the 6008AF. Medium format film, particularly in black and white gives a look that is difficult to reproduce on digital, even with something like the DMR. That said, I think a fully featured, full framed R10 would be more useful than a digital back on the 6008AF. Unless you are using something like an eMotion back, the reduced frame size and fairly limited high ISO make it difficult to use it as a truly universal camera. An R10 on the other hand will likely provide superb image quality and still be fairly universal in its application, particularly if they are smart about it by making it full frame, AF and with reasonably large photosites. The camera that Mark is suggesting would be a stunner. You can do a whole heck of a lot with an AA filter free 16mp camera and Leica lenses...

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Those mock ups are fun.

    RE: AF - sure it will sell cameras no disagreement. My point was rather that I will find AF much less useful than other features such as ISO 3200, a good viewfinder, or other things related to image quality such as high dynamic range. Said it before, but personally I'd rather see a big bright viewfinder and/or live view, than AF. The biggest reasons I pick my 5D for a shoot instead of my DMR are in order as follows: 1) R8 in service (coming up on 2 months now) 2) need ISO 800 or higher 3) need flash eTTL wireless or multiple flashes 4) shooting underwater 5) need AF for fast moving subjects 6) traveling to areas where I feel my camera might be stolen

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    1. A full frame even better chip than the DMR would blow away CaNikon
    2( a). Make lenses backwards compatible for focus confirmation and existing users and nutz will crawl over broken glass for it..
    2(b) make sure you have a bright viewfinder BRIGHT..
    3. Add autofocus and you win the happy to pay for better quality type client - many of these will be new buyers into Leica
    4. Improve battery, enlarge excellent LCD, improve flash metering and add some weatherproofing and a lot more pro users come on board
    5. Get the firware right from teh start and also provide a plg in to Adobe/C1 etc products for raw fiel conversion..BINGO!
    The R10 will outsell teh M8 sooner than people expect...

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Hi Stuart,
    Must have missed your post earlier. Actually I have never shot film with the Rollei - I bought a P20 fitted for the 6008 and it produces a file that has more dynamic range and better color than the DMR. But yes, you're right its not a solution for all things and neither was the DMR. Both are actually too big and heavy to carry around all the time, like some of my friends with M8's do.

  13. #63
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Regarding AF - I don't find it very useful, but it's nessesary to get most purchasers to look at the camera. As long as I can shut the AF off, the viewfinder quality isn't compromised, and my existing lenses will work (Leica has stated that they will work at least to some degree), I'll be OK with it. Full-frame or larger with DMR or better image quality, and an SL-quality viewfinder and I'll be happy with it.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    "and an SL-quality viewfinder"
    I'm so much in for especially that wish !

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I am with you Doug -- AF is not a big draw for me, though it is something that is useful to have around for certain situations. As long as it does not get in the way, it is a nice thing to have. Like you, I would rather have a better VF than AF, but if we can do both, I am all for it.

    EH21 -- You should definitely try some film in the 6008AF...the schneider and zeiss lenses in that system are gorgeous and best appreciated when seen with their full image circles. The metering and flash system of the 6008AF is brilliant on film, and if it is anything like the DMR, this is an area where the digital integration hasn't quite caught up to the film.

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