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Thread: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

  1. #1
    Member MarkSaperstein's Avatar
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    DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    My DMR has not been used much recently, and with winter settling in, it will get even less attention. I have been waffling back and forth about selling it. My head knows I can get by without it, but my heart is reluctant to let it go (and be without an SLR). It is sort of like letting go of a security blanket, I suppose. If I do sell, is now a good time to list it?
    --Mark

  2. #2
    workingcamera
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Mark the obvious remedy to your dilemma would be to simply send your DMR to me on a long-term loan basis.

    This I feel would be the brilliant strategy all-round not to mention fitting in nicely with my current DMRlessness and less than ideal fiscal position.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I've gone back and forth a couple of times on the DMR and have decided to keep it. I love my M8 and MFDB but don't want to be without any SLR. If you're going to sell it, sooner is probably better than later... but hang on to the glass for the R10.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I sold mine and regretted it.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I have also at times
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I was all set to follow the Guy path and went to my local camera $hop (some high end stuff but jerks for the most part) and tried an M8. You know, it is a great camera, but I'm not sure it is really what I was looking for. At some point I may pick up one and lens to get more familiar with, but I could not see parting with my SLR for one.

    Someone commented a while back that it sounded like what I really needed was a DMR and either a D-Lux or Digilux, and the more I evaluate my needs I think that may be the best way to go. For the most part what I really want a M8 for can be reasonably well handled by a good P&S because when I want to go light, the M8 is still too big and heavy and when I want good pictures I want a big screen. I will pick up an M8 when money isn't a concern, but until then it strikes me as too much of a compromise for my current needs.

  7. #7
    Michael B. Elmer
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkSaperstein View Post
    My DMR has not been used much recently, and with winter settling in, it will get even less attention. I have been waffling back and forth about selling it. My head knows I can get by without it, but my heart is reluctant to let it go (and be without an SLR). It is sort of like letting go of a security blanket, I suppose. If I do sell, is now a good time to list it?
    --Mark
    Mark, I think now is the proper time to list the DMR for sale. I did so myself 3 months ago by entrusting my dealer (Mr. Meister in Hamburg, Germany) to sell it on a commission basis. It was sold at almost the same price I had given myself when it appeared, and within only few days.

    Now, I am more speculative as regards the 6 fine R-lenses that I kept (19/2.8, 24/2.8, 28/2.8, 35/1.4, 50/1.4 and 80/1.4).

    Since new R-lenses to be launched with the R 10 will probably have autofocus, exisiting lenses will not be able to use the full functionality of the R10.

    Logically, non-AF-lenses must decrease in value, unless Leica offers to re-build them to include AF. Perhaps the decrease has already taken place in whole or part.

    I think that it might not be a good idea to have some lenses for the R 10 with AF and some without. It is probably no good to have to switch between AF and non-AF lenses. It would be too confusing and be an obstacle for working fast and without too much headwork.

    Do you think it realistic that they could be re-built by Leica - or should I also sell the lenses now and get a relatively good price, so that I can get funding for new AF R-lenses???

  8. #8
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael B. Elmer View Post
    ...Since new R-lenses to be launched with the R 10 will probably have autofocus, exisiting lenses will not be able to use the full functionality of the R10. Logically, non-AF-lenses must decrease in value, unless Leica offers to re-build them to include AF... I think that it might not be a good idea to have some lenses for the R 10 with AF and some without. It is probably no good to have to switch between AF and non-AF lenses. It would be too confusing and be an obstacle for working fast and without too much headwork. Do you think it realistic that they could be re-built by Leica - or should I also sell the lenses now and get a relatively good price, so that I can get funding for new AF R-lenses???
    I would be surprised if Leica re-build any lens. I'd expect new AF lenses, probably a few zooms to begin with, and perhaps new AF primes afterwards but existing lenses would remain as is. Then my best advice would be for you to spread your excellent post above all over the Leica world, wait a couple of months until s/h prices drop even more, then you sell me your 19/2.8 (latest version i guess) for 400 or 500 euros and we will be both very happy.
    Good idea no?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I have to agree with LCT there is no way they will change the mount, the manual lenses will work and I think the key is the ROM. Maybe and this is remote if they change the mount we may have to use a adapter but I am betting no on this
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael B. Elmer View Post
    Logically, non-AF-lenses must decrease in value. . .
    While existing R lenses may or may not decrease in monetary value in the marketplace, the current R lenses that I have will retain their value (to me) for quite some time, even after the introduction a new R DSLR . I look forward to Leica's release of the R10 and whatever lenses (AF/Non AF) that may accompany it but I quite enjoy using the current lineup of manual focus R lenses. The image quality, and handling is remarkable.

  11. #11
    Michael B. Elmer
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Thank you for your interesting proposal, LCT, but I think the Leica community is far too intelligent to let prices on used gear depend on exchanges of opinion between a couple of Leica nerds on a Leica Forum!

    Guy, I agree with you that the key is the ROM contact. I don't think Leica would like to have to change bayonets on all old lenses for many years to come. And, I remember that when the ROM contact was introduced, LFI described the function of the various contact points, and I noted that to my mind it seemed that Leica had reserved 2 contacts for future use, probably in connection with lenses with built in Auto Focus.

    So new lenses would probably use the existing ROM contact as interface, whether an AF-function or just Focus confirmation be built in into future lenses.

    There have, however, been many strange rumours on different Forums about the R10. One of the rumours that have had the longest life is the idea that the R10 would not only become full frame but go even further, e.g. 36 x 36 or 40 x 30. Perhaps Leica's earlier take over of Sinar may have added to this rumour.

    However, I do not think, Leica would really benefit from going further than the format - 24 x 36 - for which they set the world standard (socalled Full Frame). And Leica has always taken one step at a time - often some time after every body else. so why should they take an enormous risk this time and do something completely fifferent from all other big brands? Leica needs a safe success also with the R in order to survive and cannot afford unnecessary risks.
    Last edited by Michael B. Elmer; 30th December 2007 at 09:17.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I also debated the whole "sell or not sell" issue.

    In the end I've decided to keep the DMR for 3 key reasons: Eventual back-up to a R-10. Film use option at will. Increased ISO functionality by using Flexcolor version 4.8.3 for current use, and use through out the coming year. The R10 is a ways off. Having all that R glass sit idle would be a crime.

    Even if there are AF lenses ... which is pure speculation right now ... I'm sure they will also include focus confirmation for the manual glass ... which would be just fine with me. Adding "good" AF motors to some of these lenses would probably make them huge ... especially the fast glass.

  13. #13
    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Adding "good" AF motors to some of these lenses would probably make them huge ... especially the fast glass.
    I don't know if you would consider this 50mm Summilux with AF compact Leica invented AF. The AF SL2 was introduced at Photokina in 1976.


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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I would not be surprised if it truly was bigger than full frame because that would give Leica a edge in the market , it would also pump up the mega pixels and able to keep the the better size photosites like the MF backs. Honestly this gives Leica a leg up if you think about it a 35mm form factor with close to MF back quality. Now that is something to reckon with. The key will be the image circle that the existing lenses and future lenses can throw off. I wish someone actually knew what the limit is in regards to image circle or the average they could use. Now larger than FF could be maybe 28 x 40 or just slightly proportional to the existing 24x36 just a little bigger, that is what I am expecting . Not a ton bigger but just enough to take advantage of the image circle in the lenses today and new ones built. It has been said there are 24 lenses coming , well the Summarits are 4 of them for the M . That makes 20 more to build for the M and R. The M side does not need that much except for extreme wide angles. So lets say 3 wides for M a new Nocti and new 75 lux, completely guessing folks . But that only is a handful on the M side but also we should remember this may take two years for 24 new lenses too. Let's say one thing for sure it is going to be pretty damn interesting come Photokina. Now if one or two M lenses slip in for PMA you know me being there i will give a full report on it.
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It has been said there are 24 lenses coming , well the Summarits are 4 of them for the M . That makes 20 more to build for the M and R.
    Keep in mind Leica also makes lenses for Panasonic compacts and camcorders...

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    My DMR is very idle, too. Yet I can't make myself part with it! I can't even find any for sale or recently sold - how much do they even go for nowadays?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would not be surprised if it truly was bigger than full frame because that would give Leica a edge in the market , it would also pump up the mega pixels and able to keep the the better size photosites like the MF backs.
    I agree that it makes a lot of sense for Leica, BUT....

    I don't think that physics supports the concept of "bigger than full frame" along with "keeping the same lens mount" as we were discussing in another thread. IOW, something has to give --- you are only going to get to have it one way, full frame and uses the existing mount or larger than full frame with a new mount. And bottom line, 26 new lenses sounds like an entirely new system to me.
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    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Jan ... Here's one that was just listed on photo.net. Nice that they've retained their value so well.

    http://photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=701636

    Kurt

  19. #19
    DougDolde
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    One thing not mentioned is that 24x36 or 2:3 is not the best use of the image circle. Square uses it best followed closely by 4:5 aspect. See pdf for details.

    http://www.painted-with-light.com/NEW_WORK/format.pdf

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Jack wrote: "And bottom line, 26 new lenses sounds like an entirely new system to me."

    I would love to see a new Medium Format (MF) Leica Mount - or a new larger Leica mount in between 35mm small format and MF. Sounds very refreshing.

    BUT ... IF at this time the R mount is in fact discontinued, Leica certainly ought to at least tell the audience !

    So I expect the famous remark about a somewhat larger sensor than "Full Frame" to be something like the 4:5 aspect mentioned by Doug.

  21. #21
    Mitch Alland
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Keep in mind Leica also makes lenses for Panasonic compacts and camcorders...
    Jan, Leica does no such thing: those lenses are manufactured by Pansonic, or by a Chinese OEM firm on behalf of Panasonic in China, under the Leica brand, either designed jointly by Leica and Panasonic, or by Panasonic with Leica input — the latter is not all to clear.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    If it makes the camera bigger rather than smaller, NOT INTERESTED. Also not interested in dropping another 30K on a digital camera system with all new lenses. Enough already.

    If they go with a square then we're probably looking at 36X36, which is the smallest sized MF sensor currently available while retaining the current mount... which means it is viable financially. But those are CCDs and the ISOs are currently limited to 1600, which is marginal in terms of performance at that ISO. Those systems are optimized for ISO 50 or 100.

    The questions that come to mind are: do the current lenses image circle truly cover a square with excellence both top to bottom as well as side to side? And will the sensor need micro lenses for wide lenses?

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... do the current lenses image circle truly cover a square with excellence both top to bottom as well as side to side?
    The image circle question applies more to corners than to top & bottom. The thing that would restrict lens performance top & bottom would be light baffles, easily removed or modified.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    It sounds than they could enlarge it than proportionally to 24x36 and still keep the old mount and lenses . This is my bet, you know if this is the case than the may make just the 24 side bigger and change the ratio. Be interesting to see what they do here. Maybe like 28 x 36 , I don't think they want to go to big because than the mirror box has to grow and in turn so does the body. I would think they would want to keep the size as small as they can.
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Ahh yes, corner-to-corner would be the issue ... right.

    36X36 probably wouldn't work then.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Nor a square mirror . I tend to think enlarged or change a dimension . This will add to the MPX count
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    So I expect the famous remark about a somewhat larger sensor than "Full Frame" to be something like the 4:5 aspect mentioned by Doug.
    Actually, I think 4:3 makes the most sense for a DSLR --- rectangular enough to show a significant difference between vertical and horizontal frames and the DSLR is easy to orient vertically or horizontally. Square makes some sense for MF as it is less convenient to lay them over on their sides, but it is so easy to do with a DSLR that the square would translate to wasted or unused sensor area for most shots with them.

    My .02...
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I could go for 4:3 on the R10. I agree square you will wind up cropping on more than 80 percent of your shots. It would be a waste
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    FWIW, the 3:2 aspect ratio 36x24 frame IC = roughly 43mm diameter. At 4:3 aspect ratio, this is essentially a 34.5x26 to fit the same IC. So, IF that is the "larger than full frame" that's being rumored --- after all it is more total sensor area --- then the current mount and lenses would conceivably work. However, I would refer to this as "image circle optimization" instead of calling it larger than full frame
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Yes they can't go bigger if there going to sacrifice anything but if the image circle can handle it than I think this maybe a great idea. Last thing we want is soft corners like Canons issues for years
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I can see the marketing now . Bigger and better than FF . Sign me up , now give me a M9 and really drive me crazy. There goes that Porsche that I had in my dreams.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Jack wrote: "Actually, I think 4:3 makes the most sense for a DSLR ..."

    I fully agree. Square, or anything close to square doesn't make sense with a camera which is easy to tilt to vertical.

    My main point was that *IF* Leica goes beyond the present R image cirkel, and the R mount as such is discontinued, then they ought to at least tell us that it is discontinued. It wouldn't be fair to keep that as a secret to the customers.

    Since they haven't told us it is discontinued I don't believe it is discontinued. Just my personal conclusion

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Alland View Post
    Jan, Leica does no such thing: those lenses are manufactured by Pansonic, or by a Chinese OEM firm on behalf of Panasonic in China, under the Leica brand, either designed jointly by Leica and Panasonic, or by Panasonic with Leica input — the latter is not all to clear.
    I understand they don't manufacture these lenses, but I'd be very surprised if say a Leica Dicomar wasn't designed by Leica. So it's part of their engineering product pipeline.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Or that three squares a day that I've grown accustomed to : -(

    Enough already!

    (this from the dude taking delivery of a H3D/39-II today) ... LOL.

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    Subscriber Member jaapv's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael B. Elmer View Post
    There have, however, been many strange rumours on different Forums about the R10. One of the rumours that have had the longest life is the idea that the R10 would not only become full frame but go even further, e.g. 36 x 36 or 40 x 30. Perhaps Leica's earlier take over of Sinar may have added to this rumour.
    I think the main fuel for this was an interview in LFI where the official Leica statement was: "The R10 will be full frame or larger"
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    Jack wrote: "Actually, I think 4:3 makes the most sense for a DSLR ..."

    I fully agree. Square, or anything close to square doesn't make sense with a camera which is easy to tilt to vertical.

    My main point was that *IF* Leica goes beyond the present R image cirkel, and the R mount as such is discontinued, then they ought to at least tell us that it is discontinued. It wouldn't be fair to keep that as a secret to the customers.

    Since they haven't told us it is discontinued I don't believe it is discontinued. Just my personal conclusion
    If they make a larger mount, the concept of an adapter ring springs to mind. leica was known at one time as "a factory of rings that also happens to make cameras"
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  37. #37
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Problem with an adapter ring is it adds distance between the camera and lens, and like an extension tube moves focus closer, eliminating infinity. Canon has the least F2F (Film to Flange) focal of any current DSLR system. So it might work IF Leica can part with any of the already preciously limited space in the R system...

    Of course an adapter with OPTICS inside is an option, like a 1.1 teleconverter...
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Jack:

    I think Jaap meant a much larger diameter mount and the adapter just adapting diameter, not thickness.

    They could also do like they did with LTM to M, make the register 1mm longer to allow you to adapt the old lenses to the new mount.

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Jack:

    I think Jaap meant a much larger diameter mount and the adapter just adapting diameter, not thickness.
    Then the new mount would have to be one heck of a lot wider than the current one

    They could also do like they did with LTM to M, make the register 1mm longer to allow you to adapt the old lenses to the new mount.
    Sure, but then the new camera has to have the lens mounting flange 1mm CLOSER to the sensor for that, meaning even less room in the mirror box. Less room in the mirror box does not engineer well if they also go "larger than full frame" since they'll need a larger mirror still...

    Very difficult to have your cake and eat it too on this one... Bottom line, the way I see it, you are going to get full-frame and maybe retain the current mount, OR larger than full frame with an entirely new mount and lenses. If option B, then the only "adapter" that makes sense for the current R lenses will have to have some optics in it.

    Cheers,
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  40. #40
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    But you don't need a mirror or even a mirror box if you have live view. They could put a tiny display in the viewfinder and a big one on the back. Actually such a display could be as big and as bright as you want it.

  41. #41
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    ...They could put a tiny display in the viewfinder...
    You mean an EVF?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    But you don't need a mirror or even a mirror box if you have live view. They could put a tiny display in the viewfinder and a big one on the back. Actually such a display could be as big and as bright as you want it.
    Good point --- and it would be fine with me as long as it is significantly higher resolution than any EVF I have seen to date.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I know stuff is out there that would be beautiful, but just don't know if it would work from an economics point of view. Let's say that if Canon charges $300 to replace the mirror in a 5D, then the cost of the mirror in production is under $100 to use a round number. I think even if a display could be bought for the same price, the true cost would be double that if you include the R&D costs.

    I'd pay $500 more for live view even on the back of the camera, and not having to worry about mirror induced camera shake would be an added plus. Then consider trying to MF in a dark room or building....live view from a display would also be significantly brighter allowing for better control of focus as well.

  44. #44
    DougDolde
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I remember the long running thread on Fred Miranda on the DMR. It was praised as the ultimate 35mm based DSLR solution. I can't help but wonder why it was dropped by so many in favor of the M8 with its IR filter problems and it's obviously poorer focusing system.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    I remember the long running thread on Fred Miranda on the DMR. It was praised as the ultimate 35mm based DSLR solution. I can't help but wonder why it was dropped by so many in favor of the M8 with its IR filter problems and it's obviously poorer focusing system.
    Probably because the M lenses and body are enough smaller and lighter that it makes it a much easier kit to carry around?

    I love my DMR files and glass and don't mind the weight at all.

  46. #46
    DougDolde
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I am sure the lighter weight is a real advantage. However it seems strange that a pro could pick the M8 rangefinder as his primary system. Or am I wrong that the M8 is Guy's main system?

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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Probably because the M lenses and body are enough smaller and lighter that it makes it a much easier kit to carry around?

    I love my DMR files and glass and don't mind the weight at all.
    I think more so because Imacon did not want to build any more DMR's for Leica so one production run was all they had. When that sold out interest waned. But I think that many many of us kept our DMRs for a long time. I sold mine last month but kept the R glass for use on the 5D until the R10 (or whatever) comes out. I have really high hopes for the future of R. In the meantime it is the M8 and M glass or R + Canon. I have the D300 for autofocus and high speed grandkids!

    Woody

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    Member MarkSaperstein's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Update to my original post:
    I decided to keep the DMR, and I'm glad I did because I have been using it quite a bit more than I anticipated. I was shooting an event at a local elementary school on Friday, and i wound up with both the M8 and R9/DMR around my neck. M8 with the 21 Elmarit Asph and DMR with the 28-90 Vario-Elmarit 2.8-4.5. Here is a shot with the DMR:

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    Super Duper
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkSaperstein View Post
    Update to my original post:
    I decided to keep the DMR, and I'm glad I did because I have been using it quite a bit more than I anticipated. I was shooting an event at a local elementary school on Friday, and i wound up with both the M8 and R9/DMR around my neck. M8 with the 21 Elmarit Asph and DMR with the 28-90 Vario-Elmarit 2.8-4.5. Here is a shot with the DMR:
    What flash set-up are you using with the DMR Mark?

  50. #50
    Member MarkSaperstein's Avatar
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    Re: DMR sits idle - reluctant to let it go

    I'm using a Metz 54MZ-4. One thing about shooting the DMR and M8 at the same time is that you get a deeper appreciation of how good the metering and white balance are with the DMR.

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