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Thread: Future Platform for R Lenses?

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    Future Platform for R Lenses?

    I'm sure this is a subject that's been kicked to death, but I couldn't find a thread on it.

    I have some nice R lenses 180/2.8 Apo, 100macro, 280/4 Apo. Is there going to be a digital platform other than DMR, Nikon, etc., i.e., a new R compatible platform?

    I'm thinking of selling an M8, and the R lenses to finance a M9.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Do they even sell the lenses anymore? I think we're forgotten my friend.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    My R9 is sitting idle.

    My R lens goes on G1 m4/3 quite often.

    The R lens are feeling rather neglected... might start hunting for DMR.

    Robert.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    It would appear that Leica is not going to develop a future R platform. From what I've heard the R market is a small fraction of the M market and would not justify the investment. Pretty sure Leica has said as much publicly... but it's a shame nonetheless. The R glass is excellent and some of the lenses are outstanding.

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    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    My 90 mm cron found its place on E-3 and E-P1
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    see more ( NSFW ) on : http://www.klaweide.de

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    I have converted my 28-90mm Vario-Elmarit by Leitax for Sony A850. Last week, I took the combo to Arizona. Here are a few from Prescott, the Desert Botanical Garden, and Scottsdale. - Christopher

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Looks good with the Sony photos. Is that the Vario-Elmarit-R ASPH 28-90 you had changed into Sony (permanently)?

    The number two photo with the two guitar players actually has a Leica look to it. The others I can't tell.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    The Leitax is a bayonet replacement; it's reversible.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Thorsten, thanks for the comments. Regarding the second picture, it is one of a series I took of the same situation. There was a hint of flare in the some of these. I think the Zeiss lenses are somewhat more resistant to flare than the Leica R lenses I have been using. The hood on the Vario-Elmarit is borderline small, and I have a protective filter over the front element.
    I read with interest your Leica pages, particularly the R-solution based on a possible Leica Mini-M in 2012.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    I'm sure this is a subject that's been kicked to death, but I couldn't find a thread on it.
    Well, as I understand it Leica said that there would not be an R10 . . . . . but that there would be a camera which would be capable of using your R lenses. I haven't heard anything different from this, and it seems logical enough to me.

    Maybe you'll have to wait a little while,

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    I think the Sony A900 or Nikon D3x are as close to a R10 as we are going to get. The A900 is a great manual focus platform. I don't think the sharpness or color depth are quite at the same level as the DMR, but it is IMO a much more solid, reliable platform. I have no experience with the D3x. 25Mp is a blessing and curse. Where I could get sharp shots hand held with the DMR, I can't with the Sony.

    While this has been beaten to death, there remains no real answer.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    I think the Sony A900 or Nikon D3x are as close to a R10 as we are going to get. The A900 is a great manual focus platform. I don't think the sharpness or color depth are quite at the same level as the DMR, but it is IMO a much more solid, reliable platform. I have no experience with the D3x. 25Mp is a blessing and curse. Where I could get sharp shots hand held with the DMR, I can't with the Sony.

    While this has been beaten to death, there remains no real answer.
    Personally, I think all of those photos he posted pretty much answers the question. You can't create a photo that looks like those using any lens Sony makes for the A900. Enough said.

    Non-sharp shots with the Sony you could get with the DMR is purely the difference in the weight balance, and the Sony being harder to focus due to a huge difference in the viewfinders. Focus screen in the Sony isn't really up to manual focus without a lot of work, in my opinion. So nail your focus first, then just take a one second pause before composing and tripping your shutter. That one second will allow your muscles that you used to focus with to relax, and your hand more steady for the shot a second later.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Personally, I think all of those photos he posted pretty much answers the question. You can't create a photo that looks like those using any lens Sony makes for the A900. Enough said.

    Non-sharp shots with the Sony you could get with the DMR is purely the difference in the weight balance, and the Sony being harder to focus due to a huge difference in the viewfinders. Focus screen in the Sony isn't really up to manual focus without a lot of work, in my opinion. So nail your focus first, then just take a one second pause before composing and tripping your shutter. That one second will allow your muscles that you used to focus with to relax, and your hand more steady for the shot a second later.
    Hi Chuck, I'm not sure if your response was aimed at me or the original poster. What I was trying to say is that DMR had a look to it that was more MFDB than DSLR and the difference in color depth between the Leica's 16-bit color and the Sony's 12-bit is noticeable. Where the Sony has more than double the resolution of the DMR, it doesn't seem to resolve much more detail. I discovered part of the lack of sharpness was due to Sony's SSS.

    Chuck, do you have any experience with the Sony? I'm using the Sony M focusing screen, but just like you said it falls a little short. I used the stock screen on the DMR.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    Hi Chuck, I'm not sure if your response was aimed at me or the original poster. What I was trying to say is that DMR had a look to it that was more MFDB than DSLR and the difference in color depth between the Leica's 16-bit color and the Sony's 12-bit is noticeable. Where the Sony has more than double the resolution of the DMR, it doesn't seem to resolve much more detail. I discovered part of the lack of sharpness was due to Sony's SSS.

    Chuck, do you have any experience with the Sony? I'm using the Sony M focusing screen, but just like you said it falls a little short. I used the stock screen on the DMR.
    Bill, I owned not one, but two DMR's. Had to, one was usually headed in for repair, or on the way back. Great looking files when they worked though, and yes, the true 16 bit and absence of AA filter made them really rich files color wise. I have many "keepers" from that camera, and love the pure Kodachrome look to them.

    The Sony wasn't there when I tried some test shots, so I passed. Thin files just don't do it for me, I like to push 'em around some and need the juice there to start or it falls apart for me in post. I have the same problem with my Nikon files, but I bought it for the high ISO ultra low light situations when anything is better than a frame full of nothing but blur.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Bill, I owned not one, but two DMR's. Had to, one was usually headed in for repair, or on the way back. Great looking files when they worked though, and yes, the true 16 bit and absence of AA filter made them really rich files color wise. I have many "keepers" from that camera, and love the pure Kodachrome look to them.

    The Sony wasn't there when I tried some test shots, so I passed. Thin files just don't do it for me, I like to push 'em around some and need the juice there to start or it falls apart for me in post. I have the same problem with my Nikon files, but I bought it for the high ISO ultra low light situations when anything is better than a frame full of nothing but blur.
    Actually I meant did/do you own a Sony, but question answered. That pretty well sums up my experience with both cameras. If I found a solid source of batteries for the DMR I would have kept it. Still wish I could have bought your Contax system.

    I feel like I have become pretty good at processing the Sony files, but without question they are lacking depth.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    It's the depth of all these DSLR files today that just turns me off. My old DMR's ate all their lunches for a 10 MP camera. But it came with a cost. Hauling a lot of weight isn't my cup of tea. And six charged batteries was the norm for me... MF had the files I wanted, and wasn't much heavier to be practical about it. They have their place for sure, but DSLR just isn't my own particular thing. Other people love 'em and wouldn't use a rangefinder if you gave it to them. Horses for courses I guess.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Thanks everyone. I think its time form to move on from R.

    I guess I'm on the verge of selling a DMR, R9, 180/2.8 Apo, 280/4 Apo, 28/2.8 and 100 Macro (maybe I'll keep the macro) if anyone is interested. Also probably an M8. To finance a M9. Email me if interested.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    If I found a solid source of batteries for the DMR I would have kept it.
    We're working on one:

    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...s-designs.html

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Three weeks ago there was a Questions & Answers session with Leica at fotokina.
    Seems like the LUF members are still waiting for the forum owner's summary. The summary is at Leica for correction.
    But one of the members who also participated has posted his own short summary, see post # 456 in this thread.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    The Sony wasn't there when I tried some test shots, so I passed. Thin files just don't do it for me, I like to push 'em around some and need the juice there to start or it falls apart for me in post. I have the same problem with my Nikon files, but I bought it for the high ISO ultra low light situations when anything is better than a frame full of nothing but blur.
    Hi Chuck - interesting observations. I've not had a DMR, so I can't comment about it, but when I saw the A900 files, I immediately sold all my Nikon gear. I still get a little hit when looking at A900 files two years on. I think the colour rolloff and balance is a subtle delight compared to the crass and vulgar Nikon equivalents (of course, only my humble opinion), and while I agree that the 12 bit files have less headroom adjustment, I think that they respond really well if properly exposed in the first place.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    I used to have 2 R9 bodies one for film and one with a DMR back - with pretty much every piece of glass ever made for the R series cameras - except the tele modules. This represented a significant investment on my part.

    I never ever had a problem with the DMR backs or my R9 camera bodies. I can still say that the files produced by this back were wonderful.

    It came as a total shock to me when Leica walked away from the R series body - as a long time owner and user of M and R series cameras I felt totally betrayed and let down - particulary because they kept uttering / mouthing/ and hinting at continued support for the R series lens system - implying that a new R series camera would come.

    The move to the S2 has been fascinating to watch - a totally new system with its own lenses and unique image circles apparently customised to a unique chip in a great body - BIG DEAL another 'trust me' system locked into a chip size that attempts to lock in users - what a load of BOLLOCKS.

    IF the price / value equation even half added up I probably would have switched to the S2 - irrepsective of the bitter after taste I acquired on exiting totally out of the R system.

    Much as I love Leica- the fact of the matter is that their M9 @ 18 megapixels now pretty much defines the physical limits of sharp shooting wide open - which is a large part of why we spend a small fortune on the luxes - for sure at apertures of 5.6 and smaller some of the limitations become less apparent - but in the main I get far fewer keeper snaps with the M9 than the M8. As for considered work - on a tripod even - well the M9 is great - but hey if I am going to do that - out comes the Alpa....

    What a pity the same chip in the M9 couldnt have been put into an R10

    instead the 'ask' is to fork out for a totally new system - which let me be frank here - from an image capture point of view runs a distant last versus any technical camera - and (at best) matches 3 year old technology from the established MFD players.

    Leica tried to piggy back off system prices pre the global financial crisis - in the meantime so called 'entry' model backs and packaged bodies from well established MF companies - are selling at near half Leicas body only prices - and lets not get started on like new second hand deals..

    Much as I love Leica product - no way Jose - party is over.

    Every time I see another innocent thread concerning the R series - it just makes me slightly angry at Leica Oh wellI need a cup of tea now and a nice lie down


    (end rant)

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    +1 to what Peter said, even though I'm sure I have just a small fraction of the $$ he had invested in Leica R glass etc. Every now and then (such as when reading this thread), I wonder if I should pick up a DMR back (CameraWest has one now in 10- condition for $2995)....and then I worry about putting any more serious money into a dead end system. Plus the battery issues, long term support etc. I'll keep my R8 for film and use my Leica R glass on whatever digital cameras I can (without switching to a Leitax mount)...such as my G1 or 5D. A poor substitute for a proper R10....thank you Leica.

    To Hasselblad's credit, at least they have continued to provide a digital solution for V-system owners, even if it isn't the full frame square sensor many of us would like to see.

    Gary

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    +2 Peter & Gary

    Michel

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Count me among those who are saying

    I have to wonder how much it would have cost to develop a basic R10s: a mirror box on an M9 body. I suspect something like this would have been snapped up by almost every existing R user. Add the S2's AF stuff even if only for focus confirmation and they'd start to pick up a few new buyers.

    As it is I'll keep using the DMR (x2) as long as I can. Rationally, there's little I want from it that it doesn't deliver, but I can understand the irrational fears about future support.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Rationally, there's little I want from it that it doesn't deliver, but I can understand the irrational fears about future support.
    Agree here but I would have liked to see another firmware update for the DMR, especially now that they are doing this in-house for the S2, M8, & M9. I am sure they could make some improvements - for example, why does the menu only scroll in one direction from the default position and why is card formatting almost near the bottom - which is about the only function I need to use in the menu 99% of the time!

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    I have to wonder how much it would have cost to develop a basic R10s: a mirror box on an M9 body. I suspect something like this would have been snapped up by almost every existing R user.
    I totally agree with this. The DMR was pushed as an interim solution and I at least bought into the R system expecting digital bodies. It really shouldn't have been that tough to produce a digital body loosely based on the M8's electronics and firmware. That should have saved them at least 50-75% of engineering effort by reusing tried and true bits and pieces. It's not like we'd expect a Canikon 45-point AF with artificial intelligence, ESP metering, and 10 fps. For many other parts like mirror, prism, metering, indicators, etc, they could reuse and reshape the R9's mechanical parts. (I doubt the R9 firmware would be of much use though, it's probably 8051 based or some such whereas a digital camera needs a full fledged DSP like a Blackfin.)

    In the process of selling my DMR I just put it back together and gave it a spin. God I love the feel of it on the R9 with a Lux 80. It's a matter of taste, but I think it's freaking fantastic. If they just merged it all together, updated the imaging electronics, and made the drive unit/vertical grip more the size of the film winder (not motor drive), maybe slim it down a bit since it wouldn't have all the interior surfaces anymore - it would be GREAT.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    .. I have to wonder how much it would have cost to develop a basic R10s: a mirror box on an M9 body. ...
    The M9 (and M8) sensors have, AFAIK, angled micro-lenses on them to correct for using rangefinder lenses - they wouldn't be appropriate for use in an SLR/with SLR lenses.

    If they could start with an M7 body, and put a digital sensor and electronics in it to make an M8/M9, I think that they could start with an R9 body, and do the same to make an R10, if they thought there was a good business case for doing it.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    The M9 (and M8) sensors have, AFAIK, angled micro-lenses on them to correct for using rangefinder lenses - they wouldn't be appropriate for use in an SLR/with SLR lenses.
    That's what I thought too and it was discussed on the l-camera-forum and shown that long lenses on the visoflex were fine with the M9's sensor.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    That's what I thought too and it was discussed on the l-camera-forum and shown that long lenses on the visoflex were fine with the M9's sensor.
    Hi Doug
    Quite sure you're right - after all, the telephoto M lenses are going to be largely telecentric.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Might as well post this one again (courtesy of Fotografz)....for those who haven't seen it before.

    Could have been a great camera....


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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Might as well post this one again (courtesy of Fotografz)....for those who haven't seen it before.

    Could have been a great camera....


    Lovely - splendid work Marc (I'd have had one)- but it doesn't mean it would have been financially viable. But I think the culprit here was more the sub-prime mortgage market than Leica.

    . . . . and there still could be some kind of solution down the line.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    It's not like we'd expect a Canikon 45-point AF with artificial intelligence, ESP metering, and 10 fps.
    Are you kidding? I would have been totally fine with spot metering and a lever shutter cock (can't really call it a film advance).

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ... I think the culprit here was more the sub-prime mortgage market than Leica.
    +1

    I'm confident there will be a solution eventually, but it might not be within a time frame that most of us can tolerate.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    +1

    I'm confident there will be a solution eventually, but it might not be within a time frame that most of us can tolerate.
    What's the average life expectancy for men in the US these days? 80? I'm 57. Wonder if I'll see that day.....and still have the eye sight and other faculties required to use a future R10.

    I'll probably hold onto my collection of six R lenses for a few more years, just in case. Ever hopeful.....

    Gary

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    What's the average life expectancy for men in the US these days? 80? I'm 57. Wonder if I'll see that day.....and still have the eye sight and other faculties required to use a future R10.

    I'll probably hold onto my collection of six R lenses for a few more years, just in case. Ever hopeful.....

    Gary
    Gary

    I am 73 so your odds are much greater than mine LOL

    Woody

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    I thought the LUF members were still waiting for the official summary of the Q&A meeting at photokina, but it looks like I was wrong.
    Maybe this summary from LUF moderator Andy Barton is actually the official LUF summary ?
    Anyway, basicly still the same message with regards to future platform for the R lenses.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Chuck - interesting observations. I've not had a DMR, so I can't comment about it, but when I saw the A900 files, I immediately sold all my Nikon gear. I still get a little hit when looking at A900 files two years on. I think the colour rolloff and balance is a subtle delight compared to the crass and vulgar Nikon equivalents (of course, only my humble opinion), and while I agree that the 12 bit files have less headroom adjustment, I think that they respond really well if properly exposed in the first place.
    I finally gave up and sold all my R gear save for a couple of lenses I am using on a 7D for video. I don't believe they will ever resurrect the R line, digital or otherwise I am sad to say. So count me +1 on being another sucker who held on too long. Besides, the new M9 in trade will get a bunch of work between now and eternity if they make a new R even then

    Jono, I own this dang Nikon for simplicity of use in low light. Period. It's files are crap, I agree. I hate the dang things. My problem is most of my night stuff is so low light, a lot of the time it is almost impossible to get the shot on the fly and nail perfectly at the same time a correct exposure. Live action doesn't wait for any man. I should try the Sony again though as last time was just a few test fires.

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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Well my 4 R lenses aren't going anywhere, they are all classics. I guess the R6 will just have to be their dedicated body for now and I'll wait out Leica to see if there is something coming down the road.

    I must say if high performance shooting of a tripod is the objective (M's do the hand holding shooting), a MFD back is easy an affordable right now. Maybe a digital R is becoming redundant.

    Thank goodness Hasselblad still supports V series lens owners, too bad Leica isn't doing the same for R glass owners

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    After seeing what i am getting out of my M9, trading in my old R glass for the new body has certainly been the best choice I could ever have made. As a working pro, I can't tie up a ton of money sitting on a shelf, or I would have no doubt kept my R glass collection as well. But just to avoid situations like this, my rule is if I haven't used it in the past year, it goes up on the block. Only way I can keep up with new gear investments....

  40. #40
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Personnally I keep my lenses because the money I'll get for them would be not worth.
    Better fix them on a good body, as I am not after quick & fast snaping....

  41. #41
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    Here is first info about planned FF EVIL camera:
    http://leicarumors.com/2010/05/05/ru...hotokina.aspx/

    Now, we know there is delay. I've heard there is already a working prototype, but release date is sometime before end of 2011.

    Question is - if R lenses would be best options for that - rather small - camera?

    So far - I started to use my M lenses with NEX. Finally I can get wide angle, not the case for u43.

  42. #42
    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Future Platform for R Lenses?

    That LeicaRumor post was in May and obviously it didn't happen. Is there anything newer? Other than the hope it will be next year? Sounds like an interesting camera, but also seems awfully small for R lensed.
    Alan

    Selection of work: http://weinschela.zenfolio.com

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