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Thread: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

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    Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Hi Everyone
    Hope all are well, I've been busy elsewhere, and haven't been able to spend as much time here as I'd have liked.

    I don't know if others receive it, but I was very excited when I got an email about the new Zeiss newsletter with a section:

    ZM lenses on digital M8 rangefinder cameras

    I couldn't grab the link quickly enough:
    Zeiss Newsletter

    Only to scroll down to a load of flannel about how coding is unnecessary even with filters

    I was really hoping that they would be announcing some new and more convenient way to get coded mounts.

    I'm aware that it's okay to use some lenses without coding . . . . but it makes it really dangerous when changing lenses if you forget to change the firmware.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Also the Richard Rosenman vignette plug in they mention seems to have vanished from the Richard Rosenman site.....although I do remember it did exist at one time.

    Sandy

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Hey Sandy can you give me a link to Cornerfix , I would like to post that in the Sunset bar or gear Garage and make that a sticky. thanks Guy

    or if you want to put it in the gear garage i will make it a sticky.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss


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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Thank you all set in the gear garage
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  6. #6
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by sandymc View Post
    Also the Richard Rosenman vignette plug in they mention seems to have vanished from the Richard Rosenman site.....although I do remember it did exist at one time.

    Sandy
    The link should have gone to Cornerfix. I don't know what they were thinking.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Maybe send them a note Sean and get it straightened out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    The link should have gone to Cornerfix. I don't know what they were thinking.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Hi Sean
    What were they thinking of period.
    Surely they should be offering mounts with recesses for coding rather than trying to tell us all that we don't need it!

    I think they're missing a huge market section here - I have a couple of zeiss lenses, they have different characteristics from the Leica lenses, and I've found them really useful - I'd buy more, but the hassle of buying extra mounts, sending them across the Atlantic to John for milling and then fitting them on the lens and destroying one's warranty . . . . .

    They need to get their act together!

    Just this guy you know

  9. #9
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe send them a note Sean and get it straightened out.
    I already put Sandy and Zeiss together a few months ago but I'm not sure where it went from there.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  10. #10
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Sean
    What were they thinking of period.
    Surely they should be offering mounts with recesses for coding rather than trying to tell us all that we don't need it!

    I think they're missing a huge market section here - I have a couple of zeiss lenses, they have different characteristics from the Leica lenses, and I've found them really useful - I'd buy more, but the hassle of buying extra mounts, sending them across the Atlantic to John for milling and then fitting them on the lens and destroying one's warranty . . . . .

    They need to get their act together!

    Hi Jono,

    They can't do anything that might violate patent and it's traditional, in that world, to be conservative about IP so recesses are not likely. As far as the wide lenses having the wrong bayonets for the M8 - that won't continue forever (can't say more but they're well aware of the issue).

    It's true that they're great lenses and its also true that it can be a hassle to code them for the M8. Of course if the M8 didn't need filters, these lenses wouldn't need to be coded in the first place. A lens selection menu should have been implemented in the M8 a long time ago. Coding is needed, primarily, for cyan drift compensation which is an *M8 problem* rather than a lens problem per se.

    But...I may as well try and catch the wind. <G>

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Hi Sean

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Jono,

    They can't do anything that might violate patent and it's traditional, in that world, to be conservative about IP so recesses are not likely. As far as the wide lenses having the wrong bayonets for the M8 - that won't continue forever (can't say more but they're well aware of the issue).
    Well, okay, I understand what you're saying, but surely they could at least develop some sort of service to do the job, one which did not invalidate your warranty at the same time.

    As things stand, if you want to use filters you are pretty much committed to spending an extra $250, being without the lens for a few weeks, having a considerable hassle AND losing your warranty. It isn't a very attractive proposition, and I would have thought that the M8 was most likely their largest market for ZM lenses (unless, of course, they have an Ikon digital up their sleeve).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    It's true that they're great lenses and its also true that it can be a hassle to code them for the M8. Of course if the M8 didn't need filters, these lenses wouldn't need to be coded in the first place. A lens selection menu should have been implemented in the M8 a long time ago. Coding is needed, primarily, for cyan drift compensation which is an *M8 problem* rather than a lens problem per se.
    Well, there are a couple of things that strike me here:

    1. Any further digital rangefinder is also likely to need filters (unless they apply 'cornerfix' in the firmware, but the lenses will still need coding).

    2. Leica aren't going to put a lens table into the firmware - why would they? At least, they aren't going to do it until there is some competition for the M8.

    3. Leica aren't going to SAY that they won't put a lens table into the firmware . . . (why would they?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    But...I may as well try and catch the wind. <G>
    LOL Nice though they are, sometimes it seems to me that buying a Zeiss lens is more like pissing into the wind than trying to catch it!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    I already put Sandy and Zeiss together a few months ago but I'm not sure where it went from there.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Sean,

    They never contacted me.........

    Sandy

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    LOL Nice though they are, sometimes it seems to me that buying a Zeiss lens is more like pissing into the wind than trying to catch it!
    This is where the screw mount Voitlander lenses have the advantage. It is much easier to order a coded adapter from John Milich and just screw it on.

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    It certainly makes it easier i agree Robert. Just look what John had to do with my Zeiss 18mm to get it working like the WATE for coding on the M8. i needed a whole new mount to be made.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    This is where the screw mount Voitlander lenses have the advantage. It is much easier to order a coded adapter from John Milich and just screw it on.
    HI Rob
    Absolutely - and you can wait until he adaptor comes before ordering the lens. But I still feel that there ought to be a simpler way of organising all of this.

    I got a couple of ZM lenses from Vieri (who had already gone through the pain). The 25 (which I wanted) and the 50 Sonnar (or is it Softar) are lovely lenses. I like the handling better than the CV lenses as well.

    Just this guy you know

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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Coding is needed, primarily, for cyan drift compensation which is an *M8 problem* rather than a lens problem per se.
    Okay, as a neophyte when it comes to Leica, my question was going to be what does coding get you; but that's has been answered to some degree.

    So my new question is:
    1.) What (if anything) is different about using a coded vs. uncoded lens on an M6?
    2.) Is it always better to have a lens coded? Is there every a time you would rather have an uncoded lens? Why/Why not?

    Thanks!

    -Chris

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Hi Chris

    Nice to see you here.

    The M6 has no need for coding and wouldn't recognize it if it were there. the 6 bit code tells the M8 which lens is mounted and there is a table inside the M8 which then applies corner corrections for vignetting and cyan color removal. However for it to work the M8 has to be set for lens recognition and correction to "on." This is all a result of the need to use UV/IR filters for the M8 sensor. Without the filter you get color aberrations although it doesn't bother everyone and for black and white the IR can be seen as a friend.

    So have fun with your M6 and no worries about lens coding. But remember that one day you will just have to own a Digital Leica so if you can get lenses that are coded now you are future proofed.
    Best

    Woody

  18. #18
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Hi Jono,

    We don't know that a future Leica DRF will need filters. It's a hassle to prep Zeiss lenses for coding but keep in mind that the problem lies with the M8 and not with the lenses. I love the camera but it's IR problem is at the root of all this. Otherwise coding would be nice but certainly not needed. I think Leica should be responsible for sorting out Leica's problem. The lens menu selection should have been implemented a long time ago. I can't explain further but we almost had that feature.

    So, rather than rail at Zeiss one might want to rail at the closed system of 6-bit coding which is, essentially, needed because of a camera problem.

    In a nutshell:

    1. Leica created a camera with an IR sensitivity problem

    2. Leica addressed the problem with IR cut filters and in-camera corrections triggered by existing coding system. Patents had already been applied for. Coding only available for certain Leica lenses.

    3. Photographers whose lenses cannot be coded by Leica must resort to their own solutions. Other lens companies in no position to use Leica's coding in their lenses (to correct for problem created by Leica camera).

    Its frustrating but let's be clear about where the primary responsibility for the problem lies.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Last edited by Sean_Reid; 12th December 2007 at 19:50.

  19. #19
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by sandymc View Post
    Sean,

    They never contacted me.........

    Sandy

    Really...e-mail me and lets discuss further.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  20. #20
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    This is where the screw mount Voitlander lenses have the advantage. It is much easier to order a coded adapter from John Milich and just screw it on.
    Absolutely. The LT-M8 makes this quite easy.

    Cheers,

    Sean

  21. #21
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    Okay, as a neophyte when it comes to Leica, my question was going to be what does coding get you; but that's has been answered to some degree.

    So my new question is:
    1.) What (if anything) is different about using a coded vs. uncoded lens on an M6?
    2.) Is it always better to have a lens coded? Is there every a time you would rather have an uncoded lens? Why/Why not?

    Thanks!

    -Chris
    Hi Chris,

    There's a site you might want to be reading. <G>

    1) A coded lens won't make the slightest difference on an M6.

    2) That question takes a long time to answer. Here's where the many articles I've written on this could really come in handy. As a rule, life with IR filters is easier if a lens is coded unless its wider than 21 mm. Then, much can be debated.

    Introduction in a nutshell:

    12 mm - coding mostly a waste of time

    15 - 18 mm - coding vs. Cornerfix can be debated

    21 mm - 35/40 mm - coding makes life much easier but Cornerfix is an alternative

    50 mm and longer - coding not strictly needed

    There's a lot to read on this topic.

    Cheers.

    Sean

  22. #22
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    LOL Nice though they are, sometimes it seems to me that buying a Zeiss lens is more like pissing into the wind than trying to catch it!
    Hi Jono,

    I don't think that's really fair. The M8's IR problem is not the fault of Zeiss lenses. My "try and catch the wind" was all of the energy I've put (meetings included) into trying to get certain improvements implemented in the M8 firmware. A few made it, most didn't.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_Reid View Post
    Hi Jono,

    I don't think that's really fair. The M8's IR problem is not the fault of Zeiss lenses. My "try and catch the wind" was all of the energy I've put (meetings included) into trying to get certain improvements implemented in the M8 firmware. A few made it, most didn't.

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Well, smart *** replies aren't usually fair so I apologise.
    Of course, I understand where the cause of the problem lies - my original criticism with respect to Zeiss was that they made the rather glib remarks about using their lenses on the M8. It would be better for all of us if the matter was acknowledged and explained, and it was made easier to deal with. I realise they can't do the recessions themselves - but surely something simpler than two trips across the Atlantic and an invalidated warranty could be achieved!

    As far as your remark about the firmware:
    "most didn't"
    rather implies that they aren't going to either?

    Just this guy you know

  24. #24
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, smart *** replies aren't usually fair so I apologise.
    Of course, I understand where the cause of the problem lies - my original criticism with respect to Zeiss was that they made the rather glib remarks about using their lenses on the M8. It would be better for all of us if the matter was acknowledged and explained, and it was made easier to deal with. I realise they can't do the recessions themselves - but surely something simpler than two trips across the Atlantic and an invalidated warranty could be achieved!

    As far as your remark about the firmware:
    "most didn't"
    rather implies that they aren't going to either?
    I agree that the Zeiss article was misleading. It reminds me of when another company suggested we needed IR-cut filters only for pictures of black fabrics <G>. But that's not to pick on Leica, all these companies try to put the best possible spin on things. It's the nature of corporations and I'm always surprised when any of them actually just tell the truth.

    In Zeiss's case, the truth would be something like: "Our lenses are not coded for the M8's in-camera corrections but here's a piece of software that often does an even better job with cyan drift and vignetting than the M8 itself." Then a bit about *free* Cornerfix.

    Yes, there seem to be certain firmware changes that we're just not going to see. Alas... Got your e-mail and will reply soon.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    I guess there are two sides to the problem. The Zeiss lenses are ZM mount for their Ikon camera. Who are we to complain that they will not work like we want on a Leica camera? Does Zeiss state anywhere in the lterature that they are Leica M mount for Leica cameras?

    I looked at the Zeiss site and there was no mention of Leica, just M mount. I found this quote interesting. "We decided to design our own camera body because other cameras simply cannot match the performance standards of our lenses."

  26. #26
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I looked at the Zeiss site and there was no mention of Leica, just M mount. I found this quote interesting. "We decided to design our own camera body because other cameras simply cannot match the performance standards of our lenses."
    Modest, aren't they? Marketing is mostly pretend. I tested the Ikon and the M7 side by side. The Zeiss actually has a slightly better finder but the overall refinement level of the M7 (fit, finish, shutter sound, etc.) was much higher.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I guess there are two sides to the problem. The Zeiss lenses are ZM mount for their Ikon camera. Who are we to complain that they will not work like we want on a Leica camera? Does Zeiss state anywhere in the lterature that they are Leica M mount for Leica cameras?

    I looked at the Zeiss site and there was no mention of Leica, just M mount. I found this quote interesting. "We decided to design our own camera body because other cameras simply cannot match the performance standards of our lenses."
    Hi Rob,
    Well, in this newsletter they did say they were suitable for the M8 (they didn't mention Leica, but they did mention the M8).

    Still, I wasn't complaining per se (although it might have sounded like it ). As Sean says - I also recognise (and sympathise) with marketing departments when I see them in operation!

    My point really was that Zeiss seem to be missing a trick here, in that they could be selling a great deal more ZM lenses to M8 users if they made a little effort (without necessarily breaking Leica's patents).

    The obvious option for them (of course) is to bring out a digital Ikon, and the success of the M8 must surely be giving them pause for thought.

    Just this guy you know

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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Thanks Woody and Sean (nice review site Sean!).

    I'll definite look to get coded lenses in the future. Question though.

    If an M9 has a different level of cyan problem, would the lenses have to be re-coded?

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    If an M9 has a different level of cyan problem, would the lenses have to be re-coded?
    No - the lens code is just an index into a table of lens correction information that's held in firmware. If the M9 had different cyan characteristics, then the firmware would be different, so no change to the lens coding would be required. At least for that reason.

    Sandy

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDauer View Post
    Thanks Woody and Sean (nice review site Sean!).

    I'll definite look to get coded lenses in the future. Question though.

    If an M9 has a different level of cyan problem, would the lenses have to be re-coded?
    No the lenses will never have to re coded for any upcoming leica , it would be a nightmare for them. not a chance in the world they would do that. We may not need the IR filters though but the coding orginaly was for vignetting to begin with and with FF camera it will have to be there also , just different firmware to deal with that on FF
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No the lenses will never have to re coded for any upcoming leica , it would be a nightmare for them. not a chance in the world they would do that. We may not need the IR filters though but the coding orginaly was for vignetting to begin with and with FF camera it will have to be there also , just different firmware to deal with that on FF
    FF? I see, so the M9 will be FF will it
    That's great, we'll be able to have fun dealing with all those dodgy edges and corners

    Mind you, if they can't put an IR filter in camera on a crop sensor, it seems even less likely they'll be able to do it on FF - personally I think the filters and coding are here to stay. . . . If I was cynical, then I'd say it was also a way to ensure that Mx users stuck to Leica lenses, because it was so much more difficult to deal with those from other manufacturers . . but of course, I'm not really cynical.

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  32. #32
    Sean_Reid
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    Re: Disappointing Newsletter from Zeiss

    Quote Originally Posted by sandymc View Post
    No - the lens code is just an index into a table of lens correction information that's held in firmware. If the M9 had different cyan characteristics, then the firmware would be different, so no change to the lens coding would be required. At least for that reason.

    Sandy
    Exactly

    Sandy, BTW, is the author of Cornerfix and has become quite knowledgeable about cyan drift, corrections, etc.

    Cheers,

    Sean

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