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Thread: Sinar and Leica BFF now

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    Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Leica Camera AG and Jenoptik lock cooperative contract.
    Jena and Solms, 17 June 2008
    The existing co-operation of the partners within the range digital image processing is continued to intensify. Know-how bundled for highest requirements for customer.
    The Leica Camera AG and the JENOPTIK AG announces that the Leica Camera AG and that locked optical systems of the Jenoptik company belonging division to the section digitally Imaging a contract over long-term co-operation consisting in the range of the development, integration, the production as well as supply from building groups to the digital image processing of optoelectronics and software.
    “Leica is a prominent manufacturer of similar and digital camera systems and our products stands world-wide for highest requirements in the technology, quality and reliability,” in such a way Dr. Andreas buyer, chairman of the board of the LEICA Camera AG to the intensification of the co-operation of both enterprises. In the course of the market tendency Leica intends to integrate particularly digital technique and optoelectronics further into existing and future cameras and to further develop thus the prominent position in the Premium segment. “With the Jenoptik have we for it a reliable partner, which possesses the necessary experience, around the high requirements of our customers fairly to become”, so Dr. Andreas buyer further.
    Comprehensive Produktportfolio in the division digitally Imaging.
    The Jenoptik division digitally Imaging is on the development and manufacturing of high speed image processing systems specialized. The components and systems in the professional digital photography, in the microscopy, here among other things for Life Sciences applications and in the biotechnology, as well as in the industrial measuring technique and road safety find employment. The product spectrum reaches from electronic building groups and software to the image processing over digital camera systems up to customized complete plants, for example for the particle measuring technique. Dr. Dirk Rothweiler, director/conductor of the Jenoptik section optical systems: “We are pleased over the intensification of the partnership with Leica, since them prove again that we become with our division digitally Imaging highest requirements for customer fair.”
    To “we can offer the bundled authority of both enterprises our customer with the partnership”, supplement Wolfgang cellar, director/conductor of the Jenoptik division digitally Imaging. The division belongs within to 1 January 2008 the introduced new section structure of the Jenoptik company to the section optical systems.
    Leica Camera AG

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Here is another translation that is a bit easier to read:

    (lifepr) Jena/Solms, 17.06.2008 - LEICA Camera AG and JENOPTIK AG have announced that Leica Camera AG and the Digital Imaging business unit forming part of the Jenoptik Group's Optical Systems division have concluded an agreement for long-term cooperation in the area of the development, integration, manufacture and supply of digital imaging components comprising optoelectronics and software.

    "Leica is a leading manufacturer of analogue and digital camera systems and our products are synonymous worldwide with the highest standards in terms of technology, quality and reliability" says Dr. Andreas Kaufmann, Chairman of the Management Board of LEICA Camera AG, commenting on the intensification of the collaboration between the two companies. During the course of the market development Leica intends to further integrate digital technology and optoelectronics in particular into its existing and future cameras and in this way further expand its position as a leader in the premium segment. "In Jenoptik we have a reliable partner for this purpose, one which has the necessary experience in order to meet the stringent requirements demanded by our customers" continues Dr. Andreas Kaufmann.

    Comprehensive product portfolio in the Digital Imaging business unit.

    Jenoptik's Digital Imaging business unit specializes in the development and manufacture of high-performance imaging systems. The components and systems are used in professional, digital photography, microscopy, including, amongst others, for applications in the field of life sciences and in biotechnology, as well as in industrial metrology and traffic solutions. The product range extends from electronic assemblies and software for imaging, to digital camera systems, up to client-specific total systems, e.g. for particle metrology. Dr. Dirk Rothweiler, Head of the Jenoptik Optical Systems division: "We are pleased to be further deepening the partnership with Leica since this provides further proof of the fact that through our Digital Imaging business unit we are meeting the stringent requirements demanded by our customers".

    "The partnership enables us to offer our customers the combined expertise of both companies" adds Wolfgang Keller, Head of the Jenoptik Digital Imaging business unit. This business unit forms part of the Optical Systems division within the new Jenoptik Group divisional structure which was introduced with effect from January 1, 2008.

    About Leica Camera AG

    Leica Camera AG is an international company operating in the optical industry, with headquarters in Solms, Germany and a second location in Portugal. All the products from the three areas of photography, hunting lenses and field observation have one task in common: to create a better image. The product range covers a broad selection of cameras for photography, projectors for reproducing images, binoculars, scopes and distance measurement equipment for observation. These are the lenses upon which the fabled Leica brand is founded - handy, compact, practical precision lenses for analogue and digital photography. Thanks to targeted investment in the manufacture of aspheric lenses, over a period of many years the company has accumulated a broad range of know-how from the manufacture, optical calculation, measurement technology used, right up to the lens design and assembly of aspheric lens systems.

    All Leica cameras and lenses, all projectors, binoculars, scopes and laser distance measurement devices are the result of years of experience, uncompromisingly high standards of quality as well as continuous further development through international innovation teams comprising specialists and users - created in the high-tech laboratory and Leica's manufacturing facility. Top quality materials, combined with reliable precision mechanics and meticulous manufacture guarantee to create brilliant images. Last but not least, Leica's After-Sales Service ensures that Leica represents decades of product enjoyment and lasting value.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    maybe they can crack those sinarback chips in half for the M9!

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    "Last but not least, Leica's After-Sales Service ensures that Leica represents decades of product enjoyment and lasting value."

    They've done well by me, but I can imagine some people questioning the quality of Leica's After Sales Service.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    A match made in heaven... assuming you are a conglomerate wanting to offer the highest quality equipment --- and also excel at prolonged customer service turn-around times and deferred product upgrade cycles.
    Jack
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Sinar uses Dalsa , Leica uses Kodak now who will win this contract. Good news(maybe) but i want to hear the road map and who is going to do what.

    What this does not tell is how much they will partner on one or many projects and products . Not excited until I hear any real news what is going to happen down the road.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    It's no secret that Jenoptik worked with Leica on developing the M8 (with a Kodak CCD). And many might remember that at the last Photokina Leica attempted to buy a controlling interest in Sinar.

    This news comes as no surprise to me. Leica doesn't want another situation like the one they had with Imacon and the DMR. Great partner initially, then left Leica high and dry after the merger with Hassy. My guess is that they are contractually trying to keep the partnership with Sinar/Jenoptik through the next few product introductions (R10, M9, ??, etc.). At least until they (Leica) can bring some of this digtial image processing expertise in house and reduce dependence on outside partners.

    David
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    My guess is that they are contractually trying to keep the partnership with Sinar/Jenoptik through the next few product introductions (R10, M9, ??, etc.). At least until they (Leica) can bring some of this digtial image processing expertise in house and reduce dependence on outside partners.

    David
    Hi David
    I agree with most of what you say, but I would have thought it pretty inconceivable that Leica could have the in-house image processing expertise required to reduce dependence on outside partners.

    This is a welcome announcement though - it seems like they are slowly pulling things together after the recent hiatus.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Terry - thanks for the comprehensible translation.
    Jack & Guy - do you have any Leica stuff left? I can imagine that it would seem pretty dispensable in the quest for MF.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Yes we have some but trying to get a more permanent kit from Leica for the workshops.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes we have some but trying to get a more permanent kit from Leica for the workshops.
    Will you get rid of your personal stuff then? (or is that a leading question!)

    It seems to me that if you're shooting MF for when you want maximum quality, and a dSLR for when you want maximum flexibility, then all that's left is travel, and a D300 (even better a D3 sized FF camera) with a couple of zeiss lenses will do that job okay.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sinar uses Dalsa....
    Some history:
    I believe the current Sinarback 54H multi-shot uses Kodak's 22MP;
    and Sinar had a one-year exclusive when the first 22MP sensor came on the market.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Really I thought they were all Dalsa , maybe Thierry can chime in.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi David
    I agree with most of what you say, but I would have thought it pretty inconceivable that Leica could have the in-house image processing expertise required to reduce dependence on outside partners.

    Jono,

    I didn't say that they had them now, but that they are trying to move in that direction. Leica (Kaufmann) has already made it clear that they are working to bring in the needed personnel to do more and more in house with regards to digital. Leica already has the very best optics designers (and mechanical engineers) and are now actively trying to attract similiar caliber of imaging and s/w engineers. They acknowledge that digital is the future, so why not try to do more in house and reduce their reliance on outside vendors?

    David
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Jono,

    I didn't say that they had them now, but that they are trying to move in that direction. Leica (Kaufmann) has already made it clear that they are working to bring in the needed personnel to do more and more in house with regards to digital. Leica already has the very best optics designers (and mechanical engineers) and are now actively trying to attract similiar caliber of imaging and s/w engineers. They acknowledge that digital is the future, so why not try to do more in house and reduce their reliance on outside vendors?

    David
    HI David
    Well, I'm glad to hear it - certainly the trickle of announcements over the last few months seem more positive and workmanlike and less glitzy. I still wonder whether they will be able to invest enough in software in house to be able to compete with the likes of Nikon. Only time will tell.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Sounds like a reasonable long-term plan, will be interesting to see what, if anything, gets produced in the short-term.

    There is a thread on the LUF quoting some EU Leica exec (IIRC) basically saying at Photokina (I'm paraphrasing): no new R glass, R10 if makes an appearance, in mockup only (jives with Kaufmann's "hint" verbiage) - so R10 another year+ away, etc.

    Personally, I expect the R line, which currently sees no marketing focus or essentially any mention put on it by Leica, will essentially be allowed to quietly die as the firm continues to focus all it's efforts and new relationship(s) into improving the digital M concept.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    No R10 actually at the show ready to deliver. Sorry that is really bad news if that is the case. There are many people sitting on R glass EXPECTING a camera NOW. Not another year away. I really hope that is not the case. They need it today not a promise for the future. I keep hearing go to the show and be surprised well i am not booking any flight on speculation. I need reality products
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Terry - thanks for the comprehensible translation.
    Jack & Guy - do you have any Leica stuff left? I can imagine that it would seem pretty dispensable in the quest for MF.
    Hi Jono:

    I still have a full M8 system, though am shedding one of my extra bodies. All the gear is my own as I have no Leica permanent loaners -- we only get that gear just prior to each workshop and have to return it immediately afterward. The M8 remains my preferred camera for street and travel, which I hope to be doing even more of in the coming years While digital MF is the cat's meow for landscape, product and studio, it is a bit of a chunk to carry for travel shots. I can and have done it, but prefer the smaller cameras for those venues. But FTR, I would carry the Mamiya outfit before a pro-size DSLR like the 1Ds3 or D3 -- IMO they are just too close in weight and size so might as well have all the benefits of the MF outfit.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Guy - concur. Far too much contradictory info from Leica sources - all supposedly 'legit'.

    I don't want to be the glass 1/2 empty dude, but given the business realities of the two (photo) markets, they're in (one they own, the other they are coming from behind to take on two, maybe soon three, titans), the utter lack of public focus by Leica on any R products (hit the website and you have to go looking for any mention of an R camera), the mention by Kaufmann of a 'hint' at 'Kina, etc - my gut is telling me don't hold your breath.

    Long-term with partners, you never know. Leica is smart enough to know that rushing a half-assed R10 to market would be suicide. Better to wait, or let the segment go, then try to roll-out an iffy 'me too' product. They'll only get one kick at the DSLR can.

    Hey, maybe they'll pull off a shocker in Sept., but if it were real, a smoldering build-up via leaks and teasers would better ensure it doesn't get lost in the flood of Photokina press releases.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    I certainly hope they have something and make some really good decisions and listen to photographers and not the engineers on what to bring to market. I agree they have one shot and only one shot at the DSLR market and they better nail it correctly because Nikon is up everyones skirt right now. And who knows what Canon is got up there sleeve and the MF market the prices are becoming more competitive. My MF system is actually cheaper than my whole DMR system was in total costs. That is a scary thought for DSLR companies. My original M8 system was more too.
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    No matter what Leica does/doesn't do - the added pressure between C & N and now from the MFDB entry kits, while it may (wisely IMHO) stop Leica (and maybe others) from venturing forth into the DSLR valley, WILL mean better options for all of us.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sinar uses Dalsa , Leica uses Kodak now who will win this contract. Good news(maybe) but i want to hear the road map and who is going to do what.

    What this does not tell is how much they will partner on one or many projects and products . Not excited until I hear any real news what is going to happen down the road.
    Stephan Daniel made a pretty firm commitment to Kodak as preferred sensor supplier last weekend.
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    That is good news Jaap . i said that to him in Germany last June is not to go elsewhere that I really liked the Kodak sensors. I have one in the MF back and very similar to the DMR and M8 in look. I just like there sensors some like the Dalsa. I just hope things work out for them , they been bashed to death over the last 18 months and i am tired of reading about it and hearing about bad service stuff. i won't even post anymore on the threads about this problem or whatever. I did my part to help but unless someone needs help I just stay out of those 12 page threads on how it does not work in a war, damn guy is lucky to be alive , screw the camera's. I would just be happy to have some great images and go home. But that's me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    That is good news Jaap . i said that to him in Germany last June is not to go elsewhere that I really liked the Kodak sensors. I have one in the MF back and very similar to the DMR and M8 in look. I just like there sensors some like the Dalsa. I just hope things work out for them , they been bashed to death over the last 18 months and i am tired of reading about it and hearing about bad service stuff. i won't even post anymore on the threads about this problem or whatever. I did my part to help but unless someone needs help I just stay out of those 12 page threads on how it does not work in a war, damn guy is lucky to be alive , screw the camera's. I would just be happy to have some great images and go home. But that's me
    I stopped chiming in on all those posts too. Am enjoying life much more. It gets to be too much convincing people that something's working very well for your needs if its not for theirs.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Yes my pulse rate is much lower, just rather enjoy what we have and be lucky we have it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Well,
    I actually think NJ service is improving. My lens came back before scheduled. I just got a note from Joan earlier today and her D2 went in for service about a week after our NY meet up in May. 4-6 weeks was the estimate and she was notified that it is now on its way back to her.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    I have been hearing those reports also. Like to see it get to 99 percent on the good side, so hopefully it will get better yet
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    I would think this news is excellent for R users. If the R10 is indeed going to be a semi-MF camera the association with Sinar can do nothing but good. It could be just the thing to get some speed in the project again.
    I wonder if this heralds aquisitions by Leica to get needed expertise. ACM could, I guess, easily afford to buy Jenoptik, merge with the sections that are interesting for Leica and sell the rest on. Nice additions for the Leicapark
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Hi Jack
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Jono:

    I still have a full M8 system, though am shedding one of my extra bodies. All the gear is my own as I have no Leica permanent loaners -- we only get that gear just prior to each workshop and have to return it immediately afterward. The M8 remains my preferred camera for street and travel, which I hope to be doing even more of in the coming years While digital MF is the cat's meow for landscape, product and studio, it is a bit of a chunk to carry for travel shots. I can and have done it, but prefer the smaller cameras for those venues.
    Glad to hear that you're still using it - I need some lens rationalisation, bu the two bodies stay, still just as enjoyable as ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    But FTR, I would carry the Mamiya outfit before a pro-size DSLR like the 1Ds3 or D3 -- IMO they are just too close in weight and size so might as well have all the benefits of the MF outfit.

    Cheers,
    I anguished long and hard about this one. Trouble is that I sometimes do weddings, and events like the jazz concert in a badly lit church jazz concert in badly lit church Most of which was shot between 5000 and 6400 ISO. For this sort of stuff neither the Leica nor an MFDB will do the business. I really couldn't afford to do both the D3 AND an MFDB, so the D3 got it - I'm hoping that the upcoming 24mp body with the zeiss lenses will go someway to consoling me for not having medium format. Time will tell!

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Jono,

    You know the old saying, "Resistance is futile."

    Ray

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    Jono,

    You know the old saying, "Resistance is futile."

    Ray
    Hey Ray
    I'm actually rather proud of myself - I was teetering on the brink back in April. Nowadays I'm not even near the brink

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Sure i put one of these in your hands and you will be toast in minutes
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sure i put one of these in your hands and you will be toast in minutes
    Unfortunately this is soooooo true. That is how I fell off the cliff.


    Ray

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    M8 on steroids. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Stephan Daniel made a pretty firm commitment to Kodak as preferred sensor supplier last weekend.
    I think he said because of the specialized Kodak developed microlenses needed for the M that the M would continue to use Kodak sensors.

    On the R front Leica is in a tough spot. When the DMR came out the DSLR market was as dull as dishwater. Your choices where Canon, Canon or a Canon. It's a whole new world now. Nikon, Pentax, Olympus and Sony all have great DSLR's on the market. The D3 was a game changer and Sony looks to be dead serious about being a major player. The A700 control layout is exemplary and the Zeiss 24-70 is a killer lens. I'm looking forward to the A900. Add to that MF kits going for close to 10 grand and it doesn't leave much room for a high priced R unless Leica pulls a rabbit out of it's butt.

    I would guess they will try and occupy the space between the Canon 1Ds and the Mamiya ZD. They are better equiped to produce a studio camera then a PJ camera. But if the 25MP Sony hits the market at well under $5K with Zeiss lenses, well I don't know where that leaves the 1Ds class.

  36. #36
    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    I am not so sure about the new Sony. There has been lots of talk about it, but no sample images. Their proposed specs may be a tougher nut to crack than they thought.

    On the lens front, the Sony/Zeiss lenses may be better than some of the Canon lenses, but the modern Leica R lenses probably have the best overall image quality as a group from 15mm to 800mm.

    Robert

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    You have to give Leica credit for their first effort in digital, the DMR. I doubt any other manufacturer can say they sold all they could make If the R10 a leap in image quality over the DMR it will probably sell out too.

    Robert

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    This thread started with the Leica/Jenoptik announcement. Who will do what is completely vague (probably that's the way both partners like it). But Leica has made considerable progress in mastering the M8's firmware. For example, it looks to me as if Leica is responsible for the vignetting corrections when UV/IR filter correction is enabled, and the AWB code that appeared in 1.201. My reasoning is circumstantial -- the two sets of vignetting correction have almost no communication between them, as if the second routines were written by people who preferred not to depend on anything in the first. I'm a bit puzzled by what it might be that they are doing now instead of delivering the promised SDHC support, but it may be related to the surprises promised for Photokina.

    scott

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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    I sold all my R gear a couple of months ago - I am glad I did because today it would be worth even less. In a one camera/system world a good argument can be made for a something like an updated DMR. However, it isnt a one camera world.

    as indicated above there are many many choices in the 35mm DSLR universe now. Differentiating by brand name is no longer enough as basic file delivery is accomplished pretty well by many alternatives in 35mm land.

    the cost of climbing the digital learning curve has been high for all early adopters. I just came across an invoice for my 1dsmk1 Canon dating back a few years now- it cost me $15,000AUD. I think canon et al have had a very good run propagating the benefits of their tiny chips and high megapixels - that run has come to an end and the 35 chip market is a more like a commodity market now. Prices are going lower and lower from here - which is good news for everyone

    I think MFD is where 35mmDSLR's were around the time of the introduction of the Canon mk11. Prices are going to come down in MFD and are already. All good for photographers.

    I am happy with my M8/D3/11-39 combo - probably dont need the D3 either. Shooting with a 39 megapixel camera makes a lot of 35mm lenses redundant - because of how much cropping you can do and still get an awesome typically sized print.

    I think a full frame M series camera with decent 800ISO is far more interesting than another me too DSLR - even if you add the Leica nutz biases and prejudices which spill over whenever another red dot something comes out.

  40. #40
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    With a German partnership of this quality and level, I think all we have to do is sit back and let them get to work. I am sure that the result- even if it does take one or even two years- will be well worth the wait..
    Theo

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    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar and Leica BFF now

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I am not so sure about the new Sony. There has been lots of talk about it, but no sample images. Their proposed specs may be a tougher nut to crack than they thought.
    Just about any $1,000+ DSLR with a good lens clears the IQ bar of 35mm applications. The question for the new Sony is how far into MF territory can it go?

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    On the lens front, the Sony/Zeiss lenses may be better than some of the Canon lenses, but the modern Leica R lenses probably have the best overall image quality as a group from 15mm to 800mm.

    Robert
    That may be true but it really depends on the lens you need. If you most of your shooting is with a wide zoom the new Nikon and the old Contax refitted for Canon are on a par with Leica. For portrait work the Canon 85/1.2 or 135/2 or a couple of equivalents from Zeiss and Nikon or Zuiko are at the same level as anything out there.

    CAD designed lenses and digital sensors have really leveled the playing field. Leica needs to find a compelling value proposition for any DSLR it brings to market. If it is just a question of having a camera for the installed R base it would be less risky and cheaper to slap a red dot and R mount on a Pentax or a Nikon.

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