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Thread: Bye Bye M8

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    Bye Bye M8

    Well

    i came to Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Summer Festival and to get some images of Crater Lake. First day out I was taking a few normal images and the shutter went belly up. One blade totally toasted.

    So back to Solms for a warranty repair. I figure that I got almost two years out of this one and when the new one goes up in smoke, which it apparently will, then I will get one of the new shutters at my cost but with a new one year warranty.

    This stuff needs a recall! JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    What is the number of actuations that you reckoned has been put through its paces?

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Not good news Woody, sorry to hear this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    I'm sorry to hear this Woody. That is a bad break (pun intended). At least it is still under warranty and you have plenty of other gear to shoot.

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    Theo
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    i came to Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Summer Festival and to get some images of Crater Lake. First day out I was taking a few normal images and the shutter went belly up. One blade totally toasted.

    So back to Solms for a warranty repair. I figure that I got almost two years out of this one and when the new one goes up in smoke, which it apparently will, then I will get one of the new shutters at my cost but with a new one year warranty.

    This stuff needs a recall! JMHO

    Woody
    That's really bad news, sorry to hear it!
    I left LEICA behind, after many years and made the jump to SINAR and MF format, partly due to the lousy reputation of the M8. The Internet is filled with horror stories like this, and it remains totally, completely unacceptable and indefensible in my personal view.

    MAYBE I will someday think about rangefinders again if a decent M9 ever sees the light of day. That already says something about how much respect I still have for LEICA. But that respsect is no more than a remnant.

    What I do find most peculiar is the fact that the English language sites are filled with LEICA horror stories, whilst the German language ones have almost none.

    Is this a nationalistic thing, or are there better LEICA's being sold, quietly upgraded, to the German public at large? It is very strange; perhaps the German speakers here can correct my view on this?

    As to LEICA: keep your glass, buy a scanner and go back to film. It is easily available, and gives fantastic results. And wait, and pray that LEICA will wake up and get their act together.

    I really hope that the cooperation with Jenoptik/SINAR will deliver a much improved product in future!
    Cheers,
    Theo

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Woody,
    I am sad to hear that your shutter failed. Seems like a frequent happening on this and the LUF.
    This is not the durability that I am accustomed to with Leica or any major brand. I used to carry around my M6 as a back up camera for years as this was my "bullet proof" camera that I could depend on when all else failed, including thermo nuclear destruction. Where has the over engineered quality gone? I would hope that Leica would extend the warranty on your new shutter for an additional year.
    Regards,
    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Woody Sorry to hear about the shutter. I must have been lucky...I have 3 M8 s ,an extra purely for backup. Had major issues getting them calibrated ..but no sudden death syndrome, sensor issues or shutter problems. I am at about 10K on each camera . I agree that leica must know about these failures..what I still don t get is why they wouldn t just introduce an improved shutter into the new production. Used to be SOP for the german companies that continuous improvements would be introduced as available to refine the product?

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Woody,
    I am sad to hear that your shutter failed. Seems like a frequent happening on this and the LUF.
    This is not the durability that I am accustomed to with Leica or any major brand. I used to carry around my M6 as a back up camera for years as this was my "bullet proof" camera that I could depend on when all else failed, including thermo nuclear destruction. Where has the over engineered quality gone? I would hope that Leica would extend the warranty on your new shutter for an additional year.
    Regards,
    Al
    Hi Woody
    I'm sorry to hear about your shutter - any idea of how many actuations?

    Hi Al
    If you were using the M6 as a backup camera for years, how many rolls of film do you think went through it each month.

    I only ask, as I'm really aware of how much use modern digital cameras actually get - you only have to look at the condition of most secondhand leicas to realise this: they are almost all in mint condition - my M8 is only 18 months old, and already there are obvious signs of use - not that its bashed, but simply with a worn finish from holding.

    Lots of people shoot the equivalent of 30 or 40 rolls of film a month (I know I do). This isn't something that was common in the days before digital (of course, pro's did . . . . but probably not with a Leica M).

    I'm not excusing Leica, but I'm betting that the shutters of the M8 see a lot more action than those of any Leica for many years.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Jono,
    I am used to cameras working not failing within a short period of time. My M6 dates back to 1986 and I would guess about 100,000+ actuations. When I shot professionally, I would run through about 10-15 rolls of film through my Nikon Fs, F2s and F3s everyday 5 days a week and never had a shutter fail. My original Nikon F from 1967 was still on it's original shutter when I sold it in 1988 albeit CLA'd every year by NPS.

    My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.

    Regards,
    Al
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post

    My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.

    Regards,
    Al
    Al
    My M8 dates back to 2007 and certainly has 60,000 actuations
    My point is twofold:
    1. these cameras are having a huge amount more actuations than their predecessors (at least since the sixties)

    2. every failure is faithfully recorded on the internet .... nobody says 'hey, i've just finished 100,000 actuations on my M8 without problem'. I've had cameras with failed shutters (Contax and Nikon) - no big deal, you get it fixed, in those days there was nobody to commiserate with on the internet.

    I don't know whether the shutter on the M8 is more prone to failure, but I'm certain that enough has changed to make it very very difficult to make valid comparisons with past cameras.

    I return to my point about row after row of pristine, mint condition (absolutely reliable) film leicas which line the shelves of secondhand shops.

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    My point is that a company known for it's quality and durability (ads such as Ms on Mt Everest come to mind) should be ashamed of shutters that fail so quickly. I still love my M8 for the size and image quality, just upsetting to see all of the problems that this model has faced in the past years.
    Al
    My real point is that your assumption that this didn't happen to previous Ms under the same kind of workload cannot be based on fact, but only on disappointed assumption
    Last edited by jonoslack; 29th June 2008 at 13:01.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    If film Leicas were absolutely reliable, then I suppose that the company set up its repair depots "just in case".
    In absolute terms, I have had more failures with other cameras than with my M8s, but Leica gave me the impression early on, of a "Keystone Cops" movie. The good news IMO is that there is some evidence that this is improving. Fundementally, the film camera side of the operation, which included their lens department and repair depots, were woefully unprepared and did not anticipate the operational difficulties imposed by the tighter tolerances required by digital sensors and an unforgiving pixel-peeping universe.
    I think that in the totality of my experience with the M8, that it is still my favorite camera to sling over my shoulder when just going about.
    -bob

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Hey everyone

    Point 1, I have less than 10K actuations on this body. This was my second body bought in February of 2007. The first body, from the first batch into the USA never had a problem and when I sold it to TEB New York still worked flawlessly.

    Point 2 I don't think my comments were aimed at bashing leica. My story is what it is, but if you are part of both this forum and the LUf you know that dead shutters are a fact of life with the M8. Just read the threads about the new shutters to see the sarcasm as to whether Leica offered that upgrade to have users finance the shutter replacement program.

    I think the M8 is a product without which my photography would be diminished. But the Leica company has made some serious blunders with this product and no amount of apologists for them can change that.

    JMHO and as always YMMV

    Woody

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    Theo
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey everyone

    Point 1, I have less than 10K actuations on this body. This was my second body bought in February of 2007. The first body, from the first batch into the USA never had a problem and when I sold it to TEB New York still worked flawlessly.

    .....but if you are part of both this forum and the LUf you know that dead shutters are a fact of life with the M8. Just read the threads about the new shutters to see the sarcasm as to whether Leica offered that upgrade to have users finance the shutter replacement program.

    I think the M8 is a product without which my photography would be diminished. But the Leica company has made some serious blunders with this product and no amount of apologists for them can change that.

    JMHO and as always YMMV

    Woody
    AMEN TO THAT !

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Jono,
    I agree with you that the internet has brought a whole new light on isolated problems with cameras. It is a great place to share ideas and hear about new things and it does magnify isolated problems. The number of posts regarding shutters has me wondering about the QC put into these cameras in comparison to the older mechanical cameras that they made. Have I seen shutter failures on other Ms? Yes, on an M7, it was a dealer's demo camera and the curtains just "blew up".

    Disappointment, yes, bashing, no, I hope this did not come across as such. Just my observation regarding the frequency of the posts no more no less. I DO LOVE MY M8 don't get me wrong, nothing beats the quality of images and the small form factor. It fits my needs for photography and saves my back and shoulders!

    Everything has a finite lifespan, electronic components, memory cards, shutters and lens. One would hope that a major component like a shutter last at least 100,000 cycles.

    I agree with Woody that there were serious blunders with the product and how they tried to fix the problem. Time will tell if they can keep up in the digital camera age.

    Regards,
    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Despite writing most of the unpleasant messages about M8 in various forums, I just can't agree with you.

    There are not many horror stories anywhere. It's just that expectations are much more from a company like Leica. Otherwise all companies have faulty products to some extent, and that's why they have servicing stations. leica is no exception.

    I only can blame Leica for faulty rangefinder adjustments, which could have been avoided, because that's more of a workmanship fault rather than anything serious, but has eventually affected many users. I still can't understand the reason for that. Many people has become experts in aligning the cameras, instead of being away from them during the turnaround time.

    Other than that, everything has been settled down. Users are very happy in general. Last week I have lended a D300 user my M8 with the Tri Elmar, and now he's after buying one. He was not trusting his eyes, but have seen that it's no problem at all.

    This camera is just great in many ways. There's also no alternative at present. Scanning 35mm film does not give the same results (at least with my Nikon 9000ED). MF film and scanning may be more appropriate for your IMO.

    Seyhun



    Quote Originally Posted by Theo View Post

    What I do find most peculiar is the fact that the English language sites are filled with LEICA horror stories, whilst the German language ones have almost none.

    Is this a nationalistic thing, or are there better LEICA's being sold, quietly upgraded, to the German public at large? It is very strange; perhaps the German speakers here can correct my view on this?
    Cheers,
    Theo
    H3DII-31, 5DII, M8, NEX-3 and Camera collection
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Have I seen shutter failures on other Ms? Yes, on an M7, it was a dealer's demo camera and the curtains just "blew up".

    Disappointment, yes, bashing, no, I hope this did not come across as such. Just my observation regarding the frequency of the posts no more no less. I DO LOVE MY M8 don't get me wrong, nothing beats the quality of images and the small form factor. It fits my needs for photography and saves my back and shoulders!
    HI Al
    I think you missed my points, which were that M8's, on average, are being used a great deal more than other M cameras, and that any problem is being reported on the net (which was NOT the case with previous cameras).

    I don't KNOW this, but the point is that you don't KNOW that they're worse either. The evidence of posts on the net really does't PROVE anything (because there is no base reference, and no such publicity for previous cameras).

    Only Leica could tell us that.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    very good point jono. statistics is an insidious science

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    The facts seem to support he fact that the M8 has had a lot of problems and that its pretty darn frustrating to get these resolved . .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............ . Can there be any doubt that the camera was rushed to market and the initial batch was very problematic. The UV/IR fiasco,the sudden death syndrome and the calibration nightmare are all well documented. .................................. . . The shutter issues come up less frequently but you really have to wonder about the shutter replacement strategy..nice way to establish the price to fix a weakness in the existing camera base.(and manage then warranty overhang). I wish Leica would have just phased the new shutter in as a continuous improvement. I can think of no reason why it should cost more to get it right. .................................................. . . So my point of view is that we need to keep these issues out there until they are corrected. I am glad Woody posted his experience. I know maybe 15-20 M8 users well enough to have talked in person with them about various issues . At least 50% of these users have had an M8 service issue. Thats good enough for me .......................... . .With that said the M8 is my camera . I have a D3 and a r9/dmr with more lenses than i can carry but I really use the M8 . So for me its worth it to have 3 bodies with one in reserve. I should also report that after 10K each on the first two M8s ..they have been exceptionally reliable ...just tough to calibrate. ................... .......................... . Maybe Woody will be lucky and Leica will turn his camera around in a month..so that he can report that the problem is forgotten.
    Last edited by glenerrolrd; 30th June 2008 at 14:55.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Al
    My M8 dates back to 2007 and certainly has 60,000 actuations
    My point is twofold:
    1. these cameras are having a huge amount more actuations than their predecessors (at least since the sixties)

    2. every failure is faithfully recorded on the internet ....
    Jono,
    I agree with you completely; your stats for the M8 suggest over 100 pix per day with it, or 1650 rolls of film...no one bar a pro ever shot this quantity before digital...and you do have several other cameras!

    But - and this is a bit OT - is this vast quantity of pix better than before, or just more?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Jono,
    I agree with you completely; your stats for the M8 suggest over 100 pix per day with it, or 1650 rolls of film...no one bar a pro ever shot this quantity before digital...and you do have several other cameras!

    But - and this is a bit OT - is this vast quantity of pix better than before, or just more?

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Argh, Woody, I feel your pain. My M8 was at Leica for several months this winter. The camera never recognized coded lenses properly. When I finally got it back, it was working properly. I just shot again last night and noticed that it was no longer recognizing my lenses. I am very, very disappointed and I really don't want to drop it off in NJ again for more months of repair that does not appear to have any result.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Man, I want an M8 so bad, but my patience with electronic devices that don't work properly is about nil.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Jono, I think Bertie is agreeing with you in a round about way. He seems to acknowledge your point about shooting more with digital than film, but at the same time questioning if that is really better. At least that is what I read into his post.

    I know I shoot way more frames with digital than I ever thought about with film. Largely due to cost associated with film, but also due to the instant feedback nature of digital which encourages one explore more options with framing, exposure, etc.
    Last edited by Mark Gowin; 30th June 2008 at 17:38.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    OMG, now the storied and legendary past of the Leica M is being called into question in an effort to justify this camera's woes

    A film M lightly used? Are you kidding me? My first M6 was my ONLY camera for 10 years of continuous shooting. Not two M6s, not three M6s ... ONE. NO back-up, and I never even considered the need for one (not that I could've afforded it back then anyway.) It NEVER failed me. When I sold it, it was pristine except for rub marks below the lugs (it was the early M6) ... and could well be one of those gleeming beauties on the used dealer's shelf.

    M6TTL and M6TTL o85 ... no service needed. 2 M7s, the only thing I serviced on these cameras was the viewfinder baffle to eliminate patch whiteout ... which Leica did for free. Hardly lightly used since I shot weddings with them 15 rolls at a crack.

    M8s ... more time in Solms than in my hands. They both seem to work now ... fingers, toes, arms and eyes crossed. However, I will NOT shoot a wedding with these Ms like I did with the film Ms.

    Frankly, I don't care about any statistics other than my own. Those are the ones that count to me.

    Bet Woody feels the same.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    The facts seem to support he fact that the M8 has had a lot of problems and that its pretty darn frustrating to get these resolved . .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............ . Can there be any doubt that the camera was rushed to market and the initial batch was very problematic. The UV/IR fiasco,the sudden death syndrome and the calibration nightmare are all well documented. .................................. . . The shutter issues come up less frequently but you really have to wonder about the shutter replacement strategy..nice way to establish the price to fix a weakness in the existing camera base.(and manage then warranty overhang). I wish Leica would have just phased the new shutter in as a continuous improvement. I can think of no reason why it should cost more to get it right. .................................................. . . So my point of view is that we need to keep these issues out there until they are corrected. I am glad Woody posted his experience. I know maybe 15-20 M8 users well enough to have talked in person with them about various issues . At least 50% of these users have had an M8 service issue. Thats good enough for me .......................... . .With that said the M8 is my camera . I have a D3 and a r9/dmr with more lenses than i can carry but I really use the M8 . So for me its worth it to have 3 bodies with one in reserve. I should also report that after 10K each on the first two M8s ..they have been exceptionally reliable ...just tough to calibrate. ................... .......................... . Maybe Woody will be lucky and Leica will turn his camera around in a month..so that he can report that the problem is forgotten.
    Roger

    That is certainly my hope!

    Woody

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Jono, I think Bertie is agreeing with you in a round about way. He seems to acknowledge your point about shooting more with digital than film, but at the same time questioning if that is really better. At least that is what I read into his post.

    I know I shoot way more frames with digital than I ever thought about with film. Largely due to cost associated with film, but also due to the instant feedback nature of digital which encourages one explore more options with framing, exposure, etc.
    Hi Mark
    I understood Bertie entirely and completely - the funny faces were simply my response to the question you have restated - if more is better.

    There are, of course, many answers to the question, hence the many faces.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by irakly View Post
    very good point jono. statistics is an insidious science
    Thank you Irakly - I rather like statistics, my favorite one is:

    99.26% of the population have more than the average number of legs

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Mark
    I understood Bertie entirely and completely - the funny faces were simply my response to the question you have restated - if more is better.
    Jono's funny faces don't annoy me at all - after all, I do try to wind him up at times

    Nonetheless, I can't imagine how he - or anyone else - can manage to take quite so many pix - and what do you do with them? I don't take [m]any more pix digitally than I did with Kodachrome...perhaps old ways die hard...but it does make me think of the chimps, the typewriters and Shakespeare.

    I did read somewhere that National Geographic photographers when out on assignment took 4000 rolls of Kodachrome - even if the articles had maybe 20 pix in them, so perhaps some people were profligate yonks ago!
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Jono's funny faces don't annoy me at all - after all, I do try to wind him up at times

    Nonetheless, I can't imagine how he - or anyone else - can manage to take quite so many pix - and what do you do with them? I don't take [m]any more pix digitally than I did with Kodachrome...perhaps old ways die hard...but it does make me think of the chimps, the typewriters and Shakespeare.

    I did read somewhere that National Geographic photographers when out on assignment took 4000 rolls of Kodachrome - even if the articles had maybe 20 pix in them, so perhaps some people were profligate yonks ago!
    Bertie
    You don't really want me to be serious do you? I've taken on board my role as the forum idiot, and was only trying to live up to it. But I would be horrified to think that you hadn't understood my row of silly faces.

    I am actually trying to write a Shakespeare play in photographs, but it doesn't seem to be coming together.

    I do shoot a lot, and I delete a lot as well, trouble is that the instant feedback of digital has made me much better, so that in a roll of film I would be lucky to get 2 keepers . . . . . but in 36 digital shots I might get 15 or even 20. What to do with them is the question - maybe one should have a policy and delete all but one picture every month/year/decade/lifetime. If you nailed me to the floor, I think I'd say that in my photographic life I've taken 10 winners, 200 great photos and 2,000 also rans . . but probably another 2,000 shots that are interesting to the victim/subject. . how about you?
    Last weekend I shot a wedding - 800 shots were technically adequate, lots of people I don't know (and some I do). I've 'presented' the happy couple with 250 and asked them to choose and annotate 100 for an album . . . what do you do with the other 550?
    There is an Elvis Costello greatest hits album titled
    All this Useless Beauty.
    it torments me every day

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I do shoot a lot, and I delete a lot as well, trouble is that the instant feedback of digital has made me much better, so that in a roll of film I would be lucky to get 2 keepers . . . . . but in 36 digital shots I might get 15 or even 20. What to do with them is the question - maybe one should have a policy and delete all but one picture every month/year/decade/lifetime. If you nailed me to the floor, I think I'd say that in my photographic life I've taken 10 winners, 200 great photos and 2,000 also rans . . but probably another 2,000 shots that are interesting to the victim/subject. . how about you?
    Jono,

    I've got around 30k photos indexed, but almost all are family/friends/places/memories and so on. Perhaps there are 20 to 50 that are good, and maybe a few hundred that rise above simple documentation. I fondly imagined that when I retired I would have lots of time for photography, but it hasn't worked out...yet.

    Our wedding album has most of the pix that were taken - maybe 50 - 100 - I haven't counted. 800 seems a lot to whittle down to a presentable number.

    I took about 90 slides at the parents-in-laws golden wedding, and 140 digital pix at the diamond wedding...obviously the digital-mania hasn't reached me!
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    OMG, now the storied and legendary past of the Leica M is being called into question in an effort to justify this camera's woes

    A film M lightly used? Are you kidding me? My first M6 was my ONLY camera for 10 years of continuous shooting. Not two M6s, not three M6s ... ONE. NO back-up, and I never even considered the need for one (not that I could've afforded it back then anyway.) It NEVER failed me. When I sold it, it was pristine except for rub marks below the lugs (it was the early M6) ... and could well be one of those gleeming beauties on the used dealer's shelf.

    M6TTL and M6TTL o85 ... no service needed. 2 M7s, the only thing I serviced on these cameras was the viewfinder baffle to eliminate patch whiteout ... which Leica did for free. Hardly lightly used since I shot weddings with them 15 rolls at a crack.

    M8s ... more time in Solms than in my hands. They both seem to work now ... fingers, toes, arms and eyes crossed. However, I will NOT shoot a wedding with these Ms like I did with the film Ms.

    Frankly, I don't care about any statistics other than my own. Those are the ones that count to me.

    Bet Woody feels the same.
    My experience and sentiments exactly. I actually think I need to shoot so much more with the M8 because of the instant feedback - I can see instantly now how off the framing and exposure often is!

    Pros rarely thought about the price of film and processing, even if for a personal project. It's just what one did. And I don't know if digital has really made things cheaper, considering the amount of $ I spent on gear over the past year. It can makes things faster, save $ on trips to the lab etc. but my film cameras were long paid off and always worked (well, my digital Nikons so far have always worked - wish I could say the same about M8).

    That D700 sure looks tempting because my D3 can be a chunk (but a great one). I think that what Leica would be smart to come out with is a digital R6.2. Forget trying to take on the big boys. Give us a small metal piece of German aesthetics that can be easily carried everywhere. Just make sure the electronics that are inside are also top notch.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Problem is that statistics are for liars and liars use statistics for their own purposes.

    I am so disappointed with Leica over the shutter issue because I have never experienced nor ever heard serious complaints about such things from either Nikon or Canon. (and God knows they have their own issues on other concerns)

    Shutters that simply self-destruct are a part of a failed design. These shutters, from my understanding, were the same as used in the R series of bodies so it isn't that Leica didn't know what they were dealing with. And consequently they have developed a shutter with less capability (i.e. 1/2000 second instead of 1/8000 of a second max speed!). That is fine with me, products need to evolve as issues are found and solved.

    What rankles me is that Leica has not admitted to any problems whatsoever with the M8 shutters, in spite of the evidence. Stonewalling is not an exclusive sport for America.

    So I will go with the strategy of having them replace the original shutter under the warranty. They should extend the warranty but apparently will not. So I will use it until it fails again (and if it doesn't God bless! LOL) and then I will pay the money and replace it with a shutter which apparently works. (and is quieter).

    My faith in Leica is simply gone. I don't believe that they go about things any longer with the customers best interest in mind. Sad to say but true I believe.

    I will continue to use my M8 until it or I expire!. I need the tool that it represents and will simply work around the many issues it creates. My investment in M lenses is such that I need a digital body to get back what I was inherently promised.

    I may just buy Cindy's MP and go back to film but I doubt I can close on that as a single strategy. I may sell my M6 TTL's and buy her MP but I doubt I can go back to film only after being digital for over four years.

    I love my Nikons (Both D300 and D3) and the wonderful Hasselblad H3DII-39 which is at the bleeding edge of the digital art.

    The M8 occupies a very important niche in my photographic world. It is the ultimate travel companion as I can carry a small bag with two bodies and as many as five lenses and walk around Europe (fill in your own destination LOL) all day with little physical stress even at 71 years of age!

    So please Leica, get your act together and produce a product which performs like a $5K body instead of a Point and Shoot from the Japanese.( Actually the P&S bodies are perhaps much more reliable than the $5K M8's! sorry to say). And when your products do fail, act accordingly; get these puppies turned around post haste and have your customers back in business and getting images which can be sold. Most of the folks here on GetDPI are not collectors whose cameras reside in bank vaults. We are shooters, whether professional or amateur, who have invested large sums of money in products that, at their price points, should perform admirably and reliably. Is this too much to ask.

    Sorry guys and girls.........I am not a Leica apologist and will never become so. They run a business, not a boutique where all is forgiven in the name of Leica immortality.

    This is the last I have to say about this and I wish I was not in a position whereby I feel I have to say it.

    God bless great images........regardless of how captured and with what equipment. All I know is that I missed hundreds or thousands of shots because after one day my body was dead. I am confident that had I taken my D300 I would have captured all of those images and more. Next time that is exactly the kit I will carry.

    Woody

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    I guess because I have only experienced Leicas since 2002, I have never really looked at them as reliable. They are lovely to shoot with, but I certainly would not do anything too critical with them unless I had a backup. I have an MP and an M7, and both have had to go in for service at one point or another. So have several of the lenses. I bought the DMR early and it failed twice. They replaced that with a brand new one that also failed within the first week, but now works fine. My M8 never properly read lens codes, from the day I bought it. I sent it in and it was in NJ for 3 months. It came back working, but no longer works. I am in the process of paring down my Leica kit dramatically. While I still love how they shoot and the images they make when they are working, I have very low faith in their ability to put together a camera that is reliable. I tend to look at them like people look at Ferraris or Alfa Romeos -- they are spectacular machines, beautifully designed with astonishing performance, but if you want something that just plain works, you are better off with a Toyota. I have made my peace with that, but I completely understand how others might not be able to. As it stands now, I trust the film M's as long as I have two at once. My patience with the M8 is wearing thin and I may just sell it after it gets back from NJ again (presumably next year some time).

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Just feel really bad for you Woody. So many issues that I have seen happen to you over the last 1.5 years it is really sad all the stuff you had to deal with. Many forum members here and on LUF have really seen some ugly stuff. Really a shame
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Frankly, I don't care about any statistics other than my own. Those are the ones that count to me.

    .
    Then there's nothing more to say really!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I guess because I have only experienced Leicas since 2002, I have never really looked at them as reliable. (snip) Ihave very low faith in their ability to put together a camera that is reliable. I tend to look at them like people look at Ferraris or Alfa Romeos
    Hi Stuart
    Like you, I've come to Leica recently, and like you I've never seen them particularly as reliable. I like the Ferrari / Alfa analogy, whereas Hassleblad seems a little more like Porsche .

    Marc - I understand that lots of Leica's were used and used - but I also understand from looking in second hand shops that lots of them were not.

    Woody - I'm very sympathetic and sorry for your plight - I hope you don't feel otherwise. But I don't think that statistics are for liars - how can we do without them? but it's pretty important to understand them. I'd certainly agree that liars use statistics to their own ends, but that reflects on them, and not on the statistics.

    I'd love to see the real statistics with respect to failure rates on M8 cameras vs previous M's on a 'per shot' basis (of course, this statistic is not available to us, or even to Leica come to that). Leica would know about failure rates on a 'per camera' basis, but it seems unlikely that they'll tell us!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just feel really bad for you Woody. So many issues that I have seen happen to you over the last 1.5 years it is really sad all the stuff you had to deal with. Many forum members here and on LUF have really seen some ugly stuff. Really a shame
    It's all related to how much torture folks will put up with in the name IQ and the M rangefinder way of seeing, right Guy?

    I've used Ms most of my adult life. Some for pro work, but mostly just for me. At times it was the only camera I had. I distinctly recall opening the box of my first M4, taking the camera in hand and saying to myself, "Now there's no excuses Marc." Almost every photograph I had ever admired had been shot with a Leica rangefinder.

    Everywhere I went, a M was with me ... it was my portable creativity ... and the way I shot with it defined a way of seeing that lead directly to the involvement in candid, decisive moment wedding work. The best wedding I ever did was mostly shot with two Ms and a bag of B&W film, supplemented with a Contax 645 and film ... I've never quite topped that one.

    Now, this very moment, I am packing for Holiday ... I'd like to take the M8, but am hesitant ... not because I fear losing some Holiday snaps to a dead camera ... but because if it fails, it will be the last straw for a camera I've loved all my life. I will have reached the limits of tolerance and making excuses. That's the sad truth of it

    One from my favorite wedding shoot of them all ... "Dancing In A Pub Window." M7, 28/2 ASPH, SF20 using an S-Fill diffuser.
    Last edited by fotografz; 22nd August 2008 at 14:58.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Yes Marc and that is somewhat what it comes down too, I certainly lost 1 body to Solms twice for the same SDS issue. I got by for awhile as my only camera's and sure enjoy them but they are limited and at the end of the day hard to keep your fingers crossed all the time. One reason I jumped up to MF, still want those kinds of images but hopefully now something more manageable.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Then there's nothing more to say really!
    Yep.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    I guess I am colored by the experiences I had with my M3 and two M6TTL's. I have had the M3 since the early sixties and the M6TTL's for about six years now. These things are bricks. The M3 still functions as new and even the old coupled meter still works just fine.

    These experiences set my expectations with regard to the M8. I can understand some of the early electronic problems and certainly sympathize with some of the sensor issues. I don't understand the shutter issues and understand less Leica's approach to their customers surrounding them. If there is a known failure issue with the shutters I would have expected Leica to remedy by putting in a new shutter and extending the warranty or putting in the newer shutter now available and again extending the warranty. Folks, this is a $5K body, not a consumer product.

    So while I love the M8 files and the size and weight of it as a travel camera, this will be my last Leica product. I may keep the M8 forever and even choose some upgrades if they meet a need. But I am now on a Nikon trajectory for much of my work and the H3D for all the rest. I believe that the combination of the new D700 and the D3X when it is released will be a stunning kit for all those like me who need the portability of DSLR and also need long telephotos or macro. DSLR's can't be beaten for these applications.

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Woody

    I think we all feel for you - cameras like Leicas should not break...gradually wear, but not break. I had an M3, M4 and several screw versions yonks ago, and never had any problems.

    It would be nice to think that Leica would treat you as the Rolls-Royce motor company did many years ago:

    An english nob was touring the continent when the rear axle of his Rolls-Royce broke. A replacement was quickly sent out, and he was soon able to continue his extended tour.

    When he returned to England there was no bill waiting for him. He queried this with the company, only to be told:

    "Sir, the rear axles of Rolls-Royces do not break".
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Hey Bertie

    I remember that Rolls story very well and it makes a clear point.

    For those who may be interested in seeing what a broken Leica M8 shutter looks like I an enclosing an image. The black stripe at the bottom of the shutter is the broken blade which has basically turned inside out. I have seen a number of images on the LUF of such broken shutters and they all seem to go the same way.

    Anyway, mine is now on the way to Sean at Camera West who will see to it that it goes to Solms for a new replacement.

    Woody

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Damn. I need a new larger sensor digital camera, and I have to say that even though my sentimental attachment to Leica and shooting with rangefinders means I'm willing to pay a premium for an M8, I'm NOT willing to put up with this sort of nonsense.

    Canon 5D (Nikon D700?) it is.

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Not much leica can do about design and /or quality issues that are out the door. They can t afford a public recall. But they can and should repair this on an accelerated basis and do enough testing to get it right the first time. Like Woody I have been using M s since the 60 s and still have my original black paint M4(bought new) and a perfect M3. I have used an M2,M3,M4,M5,M6(many) and an SL,SL2,R3,R4(multiple). I have a 4 inch file on Leica service. I never had any mechanical failures on any camera..but many with electronics. The big difference was that Leica used to turn these around in about 2 weeks (I checked the dates). Its easy to understand the longer delays associated with the initial batch.......but come on 18 months later and the service reputation still endures. This is compounded by self serving policies (1) no transfer of warranties ? (2) soliciting shutter and screen replacements that require hiring and training new technicians?. (3) establishing a priority for pay system in solms that allows a euro zone user to jump you in line for less than $100 . (4) allowing the process of shipping to and from Solms to take in excess of 4 weeks ? (5) not phasing in the new shutter as it becomes available . There are 5 solid issues that Leica can and should address. They can start by turning around Woody s M8.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    For what it's worth, I drove out to Leica today to drop off my M8, and they were very accommodating. They knew that it took 3 months last time, (which is still inexcusable), but they promised to fix the camera at the beginning of next week. Considering the holiday weekend, I think that is very nice of them. To get things straight, my camera was with them for 3 months and it did come back working, but the problem reappeared about 2 months after it got back to me. Now, I would have preferred had it just worked after the first repair (let alone not needing it in the first place), but I do appreciate that they didn't just stick back at the end of the line.

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    Re: Bye Bye M8

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    For what it's worth, I drove out to Leica today to drop off my M8, and they were very accommodating. They knew that it took 3 months last time, (which is still inexcusable), but they promised to fix the camera at the beginning of next week. Considering the holiday weekend, I think that is very nice of them. To get things straight, my camera was with them for 3 months and it did come back working, but the problem reappeared about 2 months after it got back to me. Now, I would have preferred had it just worked after the first repair (let alone not needing it in the first place), but I do appreciate that they didn't just stick back at the end of the line.
    The glitch is whether it has to go to Solms. If they can do it in NJ then its possible. If it goes to Solms you won t see it for 6 weeks minimum. This is one of my biggest gripes ...I tracked about 12 repairs thru NJ to Solms (some 3-4 times). Its 2 weeks to get it Solms ....even with priority nothing went thru service in less than 2 weeks and it always took at least 2 weeks more often 3 weeks to get it returned. I hope you have a good experience as well as Woody but I think its useful to share the results.

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