M10 - any news?

[Jan Brittenson]

I think a bit of noise would be okay for a 36MP camera, or in other words it's okay if it has an ISO 100 base sensitivity. The main difference to me would be to make a 20x30 print starting from a 180 ppi image (information entropy limit) instead of 140 ppi. The additional detail would mainly be used to fill in the print with fine texture, and noise doesn't show that much in fine spatial detail. It has to be pretty high contrast to reproduce anyway, so as long as the capture is technically good and doesn't need a ton of sharpening noise won't have a huge impact. So a little more noise corresponding to the change in resolution would be perfectly acceptable to me at least. But that's just me... someone who prints bigger might disagree. But on the whole the difference is minor and, to me at least, wouldn't warrant say schleping around a medium format kit.

Other than that, I'd like so see a smoother shutter release with an option to swap it out on the M9. Better QC: we've all seen the lula video from their Leica visit, and what strikes me as absent is any indication of physical mechanical inspection: do all dials feel right? Buttons? Does the bottom cover fit perfectly? Does the RF focus correctly? If I put an ear to it, does it sound right? If I shake it, is there anything loose? If I put a lens on it, does it click in place properly? Read out the coding for a variety of lenses? Engage the right framelines? Etc, etc. Just the same physical inspection a buyer of used equipment would do. Or a conscientious seller for that matter. Not sure what they actually do for physical inspection, but clearly it's not enough. Oh, and because so many cameras are sold online these days they need to set shipping standards: shipping an M9 or lens requires double boxing in floating packing material. Nobody should ship anything of value or mechanical precision in a retail box. Leica needs to communicate this to their authorized resellers.

Other than that, I'd personally like them to make the firmware embed the actual WATE focal length in the EXIF. But this fix should be made to the M8 and M9 firmware as well.

And an SDXC slot. Not because it's really going to write that fast, or it's needed, but for compatibility with cards 5 to 10 years into the future.

Personally I don't care about live view, video, a hybrid VF, or other gadgetry. AFAIAC they could remove the rear LCD and most of the buttons in favor of an ISO dial and frame counter. Strip out all the firmware used to produce or record JPEG, preview, menus, etc. Not needed. Without an LCD I bet they could fit the M10 in an M6 form factor, and there would be less to break or go wrong with it.

 

[ptomsu]

There are some things I question:
Are the Leica M and Nikon (or Canon or Sony) lenses of "35mm" lenses are really up to such 30+MP resolution?
Is the rangefinder focusing up to it?
Will Nikon improve the low ISO IQ that i comes close to that of the CCD MF sensors?

For me lens quality (for example contrast and sharpness wide open, OOF renderung,...) and the "look" of the current CCD sensors vs the current cmos sensors are more important factor than a few MP more or less.

Leica M lenses (at least most of the newer ones) are definitely up to 40MP resolution.

Nikon, Canon for sure not (IMHO) Sony (Zeiss) I also did not feel are up to it, I was not even happy with those lenses on my A900 with "only" 24MP.

The "look" of CCDs vs. CMOS - I am not sure I am following this argument any longer. Especially as I have experienced what an E5 con get out of this "old" 12MP Live Mos sensor from Panasonic of course in combination with top pro level Zuiko glass, which is by no measn second to any Leica glass!

So stay tuned for the next revolution in digital photography with the upcoming M10 - I am not allowed to say more unfortunately

 

[ptomsu]

That's been the on-going argument about 35mm verses MFD for years. And still, the 22 meg backs IQ/tonal gradations outperformed 25 meg DSLRs even with updated Nano-coated optics on my D3X (at least in every test I tried in order to eliminate the expense of MFD)... and I suspect that'll remain true, depending on one's degree of need/final use. The larger sensor has not been superseded by some other form of technology yet ... and as long as it is CMOS/AA filters verses CCD I doubt it will.

Meg count without the factor of sensor size is an incomplete story. For me the S2 is there ... not going to be there, maybe be there, or could be there. Pretty much a 35mm DSLR replacement for most applications I need ... horses for courses.

Something looking expensive is relative. If you already have a 40 meg MFD, it doesn't matter much then. You just use it and make photographs. Worrying about what may be coming, could be coming, doesn't help make photographs now.

That said, I also have a H4D/60 big horse for the courses that require it ... :ROTFL:

-Marc

Marc,

you are exactly coming to the point - CMOS with AA filters versus CCD without AA. But try CMOS without AA (or at least with very weak AA filters) - would open your eyes

 

[ptomsu]

Very interesting everyone --- sounds like it will be a while until they release one.

My guess is that it will at least have the LED brightlines seen in the M9T.

Are there a lot of structural changes that are needed to put in a higher MP sensor?

If not, Im hoping Leica allows us to "upgrade" the sensor on the M9s ---- I think these cameras are at a price point too high to adopt the Apple business model of introduce new technology/chips each year --- of course, if you wanted new LED framelines/etc you'd need to buy a new body... but the sensor should be able to be swapped out no?

Upgrading sensors on M9 - :deadhorse: - thats really a good one! Upgrading sensors on any of these digital cameras not specifically designed for this just forget! You need to have all the electronics changed as well for the new sensor and this means such an expensive thing that economically it simply will never happen.

 

[jonoslack]

So stay tuned for the next revolution in digital photography with the upcoming M10 - I am not allowed to say more unfortunately

Hi Peter
Well, I'm glad that somebody knows what's going on! what with 36mp CMOS, light AA filter . . . . it sounds like an exciting thing . . . . but when?

 

[denoir]

Give me live view and I'll be very very happy. Right now I almost always choose a DSLR over the M9 when I have to do any type of tripod based shots.

My second wish would be for a good LCD and most importantly an image preview function that actually lets you see the pixels at 100%.

I would also not mind if they removed the mechanical rangefinder coupling and replaced it with an electronic one. The mechanical construction is fragile and it's way too easy to put the camera out of operation by simply bumping it into something.

 

[Jerry_R]

I wonder, which company will release first FF EVIL...
It is a question of time only, not "if at all".

As denoir mentioned, there are MANY users who do not need RF coupling, but would just like to use M lenses on FF with EVF\LCD, without or with very weak AA filter.

I know, I am dreaming, but FF EVIL like Panasonic GH2 adapting M lenses would be very desired. Of course - it has nothing to do with "M".

 

[dannh]

The more I think about it, the less I'd change. Better High ISO performance and a slightly bigger, higher rez LCD is just about all I'd want changed.

 

[CharlesK]

My wish list, would be a fast on board processor without delays in starting up/sleep mode and definitely a high res LCD. The sensor issue, is not that obvious, yes I would like higher ISO capability/live view, but not at the expense of IQ that is now achievable with the M9.

 

[SYGTAFOTO]

I don't have an M9 yet, but from what I've seen, high ISO capability and higher resolution LCD are the only things I would want. I actually don't mind the mechanical RF coupling.

 

[ptomsu]

Hi Peter
Well, I'm glad that somebody knows what's going on! what with 36mp CMOS, light AA filter . . . . it sounds like an exciting thing . . . . but when?

You never know with Leica that's for sure

 

[fotografz]

It may be that someone like Sony will introduce a NEX type camera with a EVF ... the current NEX is no slouch with M lenses mounted ... it is a hoot to use a monster 50/0.95 on it since focus can be absolutely nailed using the instantaneous LCD zoom feature.

It's almost a digital CL with something like a little 28 mounted (I have kept an eye out for a C40 lens to keep on the NEX), the addition of an EVF would probably make it almost the same size as a CL. Then you'd have AF when you want it with the Sony lenses, and a respectable back-up for a M9.

The question would be whether any company would place a FF sensor in one of these smaller electronic cameras ... I'd guess that is years off in the future, if at all. If anyone could, Sony could, since they make their own sensors.

My biggest M digital wish is new firmware that improves the high ISO by a stop ... which is quite doable and has been done by other makers in past. Plus the addition of the same LCD Histogram display that the DMR had ... a thin line graph superimposed over the image ... it amazes me that no-one picked up on how well that worked.

I'd be a happy puppy with just that, the LCD is okay as is, but that's because I use the M9 the same way I used a M7 for spontaneous photography, and don't use the LCD for anything than to confirm the shot, and sometimes composition. More studied work is best left to other camera types IMO.

-Marc

 

[nex100]

i only hope there is a full frame digital solution for R lenses

or there will be a m solution to use R lenses range coupled

 

[jonoslack]

The question would be whether any company would place a FF sensor in one of these smaller electronic cameras ... I'd guess that is years off in the future, if at all. If anyone could, Sony could, since they make their own sensors.

HI Marc
This is an interesting point - I think the issue is that much of the 'point' of these mirrorless electronic cameras is the size . . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small! Let's face it, Sony are unlikely to produce such a camera just for us to mount our M lenses (and unlike you, although I found it fun to put the M lenses on the nex, I got bored in a couple of days - I'd rather put them on the M9!).

Of course, one might argue (I think Leica would) that they've already placed a FF sensor in a smaller electronic camera. But I guess you mean that they need live view or an EVF or something to qualify.

Lot's going on, but judging how often the bigger companies are refreshing their FF offerings, compared to the smaller sensor cameras, and with the squeezing of the FF cameras with more competitive MF offerings . . . I think I'd be rather surprised by another FF small electronic camera.

 

[Jerry_R]

Some time ago, whenever subject was discussed on Leica forum - there were described TWO, SEPARATE, DIFFERENT - lines:
- typical rangefinder (M8, M9, Mx)
- totally new line, FF EVIL

There are many typical rangefinder users, who love optical range (view) finder, simplicity, etc.
But in parallel, there are thousands people, who would prefer, or have in parallel - LV, tiltable LCD, thing like this. Of course as FF accepting "M" lenses.

I wonder if:
a) that split between FF rangefinder and FF with LV will be kept (two separate lines)
b) or there will be only M10, but with (maybe optional, alternative) LV
c) or there will be next FF M and APS-C with LV?

Ptomsu - any tip?

 

[ptomsu]

Some time ago, whenever subject was discussed on Leica forum - there were described TWO, SEPARATE, DIFFERENT - lines:
- typical rangefinder (M8, M9, Mx)
- totally new line, FF EVIL

There are many typical rangefinder users, who love optical range (view) finder, simplicity, etc.
But in parallel, there are thousands people, who would prefer, or have in parallel - LV, tiltable LCD, thing like this. Of course as FF accepting "M" lenses.

I wonder if:
a) that split between FF rangefinder and FF with LV will be kept (two separate lines)
b) or there will be only M10, but with (maybe optional, alternative) LV
c) or there will be next FF M and APS-C with LV?

Ptomsu - any tip?

No actually no tip ..... but what I could personally see as a good solution

M10 with optical RF and LED frame lines like in M9 Titanium plus a EVF inserted if needed like in the Olympus EP2 or EPL2. They even could use the existing Olympus EFV, which already is very good. But as far as I know Leica they would develop their own which you the can buy as accessory for another €1500.-

 

[doug]

- I think the issue is that much of the 'point' of these mirrorless electronic cameras is the size . . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small!

One advantage I see in mirrorless (non-rangefinder) electronic cameras regardless of size is that RF or mirror box calibration is not an issue.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

. . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small!

According to supposedly reliable rumours, you own at least two cameras that can mount lenses proving the opposite. Summicrons and FA Limiteds are for some reason smaller than most DX format lenses that I know of. Nikon agrees with you though. They seem to have decided that we are going to enter the new age of electronics with elephant lenses

 

[jonoslack]

According to supposedly reliable rumours, you own at least two cameras that can mount lenses proving the opposite. Summicrons and FA Limiteds are for some reason smaller than most DX format lenses that I know of. Nikon agrees with you though. They seem to have decided that we are going to enter the new age of electronics with elephant lenses

Hi Jorgen
I do indeed - however, try a decent quality mid range zoom . . . or a long telephoto.
Still, you are right, and what I should have said is that other things being equal, FF lenses are considerably bigger than their cropped frame counterparts . . .better?

 

[jonoslack]

One advantage I see in mirrorless (non-rangefinder) electronic cameras regardless of size is that RF or mirror box calibration is not an issue.

Hi Doug
I can see lots of advantages - including this one, and some disadvantages as well, perhaps Fuji have shown the way forwards by offering both?