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Thread: M10 - any news?

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    M10 - any news?

    Just wondering if anyone has heard anything about an M10... or M9.2 ...

    thoughts on one coming out?

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Not sure when the M10 will come. Looks like Leica is still selling the M9 so well, that they do not care about a new model or even an upgrade. I would estimate not before PK 2012.

    Also the Kodak chips next generation are slowly arriving at the market (36MP FF if I am right). That would make sense of course for an M10 IMHO.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    At this point, I am just hoping that Leica would introduce an M9.x with a LiveView capability..... soon. It is definitely doable.
    Joshua - M9: Leica-M & Zeiss ZM lenses + Canon DSLR

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    The only Kodak chip I see on their site is the full-frame 5.5 micron KAI-29050, 28.8 MP, 6576 x 4384. It has a new filter pattern though, and according to random internet posters might trade some IQ for increased sensitivity. Are there other sensors not listed on their site?

    The 35MP+ M10 is what I both crave and fear; fear because of what it'll do to the value of my S2 kit...

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    At this point, I am just hoping that Leica would introduce an M9.x with a LiveView capability..... soon. It is definitely doable.
    Not unless Leica changes from CCD to CMOS... Which could happen in the next M camera, I suppose.
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbullock View Post
    The only Kodak chip I see on their site is the full-frame 5.5 micron KAI-29050, 28.8 MP, 6576 x 4384. It has a new filter pattern though, and according to random internet posters might trade some IQ for increased sensitivity. Are there other sensors not listed on their site?

    The 35MP+ M10 is what I both crave and fear; fear because of what it'll do to the value of my S2 kit...
    Maybe I am wrong with the 36MP, but actually I heard from one of my Leica dealers that this beast would be available soon - not sure if only a rumor

    Anyway, what we will see for sure in an M10 is another significant increase of resolution - I do not care if below or above 30MP, it is enough anyway.

    What you say right is that if resolution comes in the range of 30+ MP, then the S2 and all other 40MP MFD solutions are getting into a tight area, especially if you consider the portability and weight of a Leica M and lenses.

    I for myself decided to wait till an M10 and skip the M9 as it still does not bring all what I expected - but hey, it is a great camera!

    What would be even more important than highest MP count is good high ISO. Or a high MP number and something like pixel binning as done by Phase in some of their MFD backs in order to get clear and noise free high ISO.

    And what I would like to see as well is a hybrid VF like in the Fuji X100 - but for sure in Leica quality

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    Not unless Leica changes from CCD to CMOS... Which could happen in the next M camera, I suppose.
    Hope not.

    -Marc

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe I am wrong with the 36MP, but actually I heard from one of my Leica dealers that this beast would be available soon - not sure if only a rumor

    Anyway, what we will see for sure in an M10 is another significant increase of resolution - I do not care if below or above 30MP, it is enough anyway.

    What you say right is that if resolution comes in the range of 30+ MP, then the S2 and all other 40MP MFD solutions are getting into a tight area, especially if you consider the portability and weight of a Leica M and lenses.

    I for myself decided to wait till an M10 and skip the M9 as it still does not bring all what I expected - but hey, it is a great camera!

    What would be even more important than highest MP count is good high ISO. Or a high MP number and something like pixel binning as done by Phase in some of their MFD backs in order to get clear and noise free high ISO.

    And what I would like to see as well is a hybrid VF like in the Fuji X100 - but for sure in Leica quality
    Hope not.

    -Marc

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Any increase in resolution will come at the expense of detector size. This means lower sensitivity.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbullock View Post
    The only Kodak chip I see on their site is the full-frame 5.5 micron KAI-29050, 28.8 MP, 6576 x 4384. It has a new filter pattern though, and according to random internet posters might trade some IQ for increased sensitivity. Are there other sensors not listed on their site?

    The 35MP+ M10 is what I both crave and fear; fear because of what it'll do to the value of my S2 kit...
    More megs at the expense of IQ? If so, I'll skip the M10.

    Not sure I grasp how this would effect the S2 ... an AF DSLR with a larger sized sensor than any 35mm, and provides for telephoto, macro and eventually zoom optics.

    Instead of racing off to the next thing, it'd be nice if Leica did further tweaks to what's already there. Firmware is free, a M10 won't be.

    -Marc

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Have to agree with you there, I'm still wrestling with red edge with the M9/18mm Super elmar combo. Their most recent response was "known issue, wait for FW update". I thought that the last FW update was supposed to fix it. Sigh.

    It's good for them that I still love, love, love exploring photography with this camera!

    Edit:
    I just checked and Leica officially never said anything about fixing red edge in the last firmware. My frustration still stands, but didn't want to badmouth them for something they haven't claimed to fix yet. Having said that, the M9 has been around for long enough that there's no excuse for not having a fix.
    Last edited by dannh; 21st March 2011 at 12:09. Reason: See edit text above.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    I have to say the main serious room for improvement I see is the focusing "thing". I start to believe that the technically necessary tolerances needed for reliability are hard to achieve, with higher resolution even higher.
    And maybe some weather protection. Everything else the M9 seem jusr right to me.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not sure I grasp how this would effect the S2 ... an AF DSLR with a larger sized sensor than any 35mm, and provides for telephoto, macro and eventually zoom optics.
    It depends on why people got into the S2 and the other 40MP MF cameras. I suspect that a decent number of them were looking mainly for higher res and excellent optics, not necessarily AF, macro or other things MF provides. A 35MP+ M10, and especially a Nikon with their updated lenses would provide much (but not all) of what an S2 offers in IQ at half-ish the weight and cost. There are lots of variables and it's not apples-to-apples, I know, but $40k+ for a full 40MP system will look expensive when a 35MP system in 35mm format can be had for much less. Especially if that 35mm system can travel with you easily and focus in low-contrast situations.

    I think there may also be a trend in seeing 40MP as being enough to print at sizes that most people need or want. Advances in sensor tech *could* also make the overall IQ close to what we're getting today in MF...or they could focus on higher ISO and leave MF alone in the low-ISO IQ dept.

    Regardless, I'll be in line for an S3 as I saw what 60MP can do in the H4D and I like it! My issues with the M9 (moire of various forms) can't be fixed in firmware, so although I love the M9, I'm eager for higher res.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian S View Post
    Any increase in resolution will come at the expense of detector size. This means lower sensitivity.
    Yes, unless changes like back-illumination, microlenses, or color-filter patterns can offset resolution increases. I'm not saying those are necessarily applicable to a potential M10 sensor, but detector size isn't the only variable.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    Not unless Leica changes from CCD to CMOS... Which could happen in the next M camera, I suppose.
    I really don't know much about sensors, but the one I quoted is optimized for video applications and happens to be 35mm format. It's a KAI model, not a KAF (Full-frame reading) like those currently in the M9, S2 and other MF systems. That might just mean it's not intended for a consumer camera but the press releases I saw about seemed to indicate that it could be. Someone else can probably enlighten me/us.

    -Travis

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbullock View Post
    It depends on why people got into the S2 and the other 40MP MF cameras. I suspect that a decent number of them were looking mainly for higher res and excellent optics, not necessarily AF, macro or other things MF provides. A 35MP+ M10, and especially a Nikon with their updated lenses would provide much (but not all) of what an S2 offers in IQ at half-ish the weight and cost. There are lots of variables and it's not apples-to-apples, I know, but $40k+ for a full 40MP system will look expensive when a 35MP system in 35mm format can be had for much less. Especially if that 35mm system can travel with you easily and focus in low-contrast situations.

    I think there may also be a trend in seeing 40MP as being enough to print at sizes that most people need or want. Advances in sensor tech *could* also make the overall IQ close to what we're getting today in MF...or they could focus on higher ISO and leave MF alone in the low-ISO IQ dept.

    Regardless, I'll be in line for an S3 as I saw what 60MP can do in the H4D and I like it! My issues with the M9 (moire of various forms) can't be fixed in firmware, so although I love the M9, I'm eager for higher res.
    There are some things I question:
    Are the Leica M and Nikon (or Canon or Sony) lenses of "35mm" lenses are really up to such 30+MP resolution?
    Is the rangefinder focusing up to it?
    Will Nikon improve the low ISO IQ that i comes close to that of the CCD MF sensors?

    For me lens quality (for example contrast and sharpness wide open, OOF renderung,...) and the "look" of the current CCD sensors vs the current cmos sensors are more important factor than a few MP more or less.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbullock View Post
    It depends on why people got into the S2 and the other 40MP MF cameras. I suspect that a decent number of them were looking mainly for higher res and excellent optics, not necessarily AF, macro or other things MF provides. A 35MP+ M10, and especially a Nikon with their updated lenses would provide much (but not all) of what an S2 offers in IQ at half-ish the weight and cost. There are lots of variables and it's not apples-to-apples, I know, but $40k+ for a full 40MP system will look expensive when a 35MP system in 35mm format can be had for much less. Especially if that 35mm system can travel with you easily and focus in low-contrast situations.

    I think there may also be a trend in seeing 40MP as being enough to print at sizes that most people need or want. Advances in sensor tech *could* also make the overall IQ close to what we're getting today in MF...or they could focus on higher ISO and leave MF alone in the low-ISO IQ dept.

    Regardless, I'll be in line for an S3 as I saw what 60MP can do in the H4D and I like it! My issues with the M9 (moire of various forms) can't be fixed in firmware, so although I love the M9, I'm eager for higher res.
    That's been the on-going argument about 35mm verses MFD for years. And still, the 22 meg backs IQ/tonal gradations outperformed 25 meg DSLRs even with updated Nano-coated optics on my D3X (at least in every test I tried in order to eliminate the expense of MFD)... and I suspect that'll remain true, depending on one's degree of need/final use. The larger sensor has not been superseded by some other form of technology yet ... and as long as it is CMOS/AA filters verses CCD I doubt it will.

    Meg count without the factor of sensor size is an incomplete story. For me the S2 is there ... not going to be there, maybe be there, or could be there. Pretty much a 35mm DSLR replacement for most applications I need ... horses for courses.

    Something looking expensive is relative. If you already have a 40 meg MFD, it doesn't matter much then. You just use it and make photographs. Worrying about what may be coming, could be coming, doesn't help make photographs now.

    That said, I also have a H4D/60 big horse for the courses that require it ...

    -Marc

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I have to say the main serious room for improvement I see is the focusing "thing". I start to believe that the technically necessary tolerances needed for reliability are hard to achieve, with higher resolution even higher.
    And maybe some weather protection. Everything else the M9 seem jusr right to me.
    +1!

    The addition of focus confirmation would tempt me to trade at least one M9 ... but as it involves some sort of electronic component, I'd wait at least a year after it was introduced ... so anything I'm interested in a M digital camera is at least years off in the future ... meanwhile ...

    -Marc

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Are the Leica M and Nikon (or Canon or Sony) lenses of "35mm" lenses are really up to such 30+MP resolution?
    I don't know the definitive answer to this, but Nikon's latest lenses are "ready" for whatever sensors they'll put out for the next 3 years. I have to imagine they'll exceed 30MP in that time. What "ready" means is pretty subjective of course, and I'd bet I'll stick to Leica S. As for M lenses, I know there's room left to pull out more detail, but not sure how much.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Is the rangefinder focusing up to it?
    Good question, and again I don't know. If not, and if all I get is less moire and the same apparent sharpness, I'm OK with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    For me lens quality (for example contrast and sharpness wide open, OOF renderung,...) and the "look" of the current CCD sensors vs the current cmos sensors are more important factor than a few MP more or less.
    Agreed, but I think the gap in IQ will narrow assuming people don't need more than 40ish MP. It won't narrow enough for a lot of us to jump ship soon, but a lot of people will I'd think.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Very interesting everyone --- sounds like it will be a while until they release one.

    My guess is that it will at least have the LED brightlines seen in the M9T.

    Are there a lot of structural changes that are needed to put in a higher MP sensor?

    If not, Im hoping Leica allows us to "upgrade" the sensor on the M9s ---- I think these cameras are at a price point too high to adopt the Apple business model of introduce new technology/chips each year --- of course, if you wanted new LED framelines/etc you'd need to buy a new body... but the sensor should be able to be swapped out no?

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    I think a bit of noise would be okay for a 36MP camera, or in other words it's okay if it has an ISO 100 base sensitivity. The main difference to me would be to make a 20x30 print starting from a 180 ppi image (information entropy limit) instead of 140 ppi. The additional detail would mainly be used to fill in the print with fine texture, and noise doesn't show that much in fine spatial detail. It has to be pretty high contrast to reproduce anyway, so as long as the capture is technically good and doesn't need a ton of sharpening noise won't have a huge impact. So a little more noise corresponding to the change in resolution would be perfectly acceptable to me at least. But that's just me... someone who prints bigger might disagree. But on the whole the difference is minor and, to me at least, wouldn't warrant say schleping around a medium format kit.

    Other than that, I'd like so see a smoother shutter release with an option to swap it out on the M9. Better QC: we've all seen the lula video from their Leica visit, and what strikes me as absent is any indication of physical mechanical inspection: do all dials feel right? Buttons? Does the bottom cover fit perfectly? Does the RF focus correctly? If I put an ear to it, does it sound right? If I shake it, is there anything loose? If I put a lens on it, does it click in place properly? Read out the coding for a variety of lenses? Engage the right framelines? Etc, etc. Just the same physical inspection a buyer of used equipment would do. Or a conscientious seller for that matter. Not sure what they actually do for physical inspection, but clearly it's not enough. Oh, and because so many cameras are sold online these days they need to set shipping standards: shipping an M9 or lens requires double boxing in floating packing material. Nobody should ship anything of value or mechanical precision in a retail box. Leica needs to communicate this to their authorized resellers.

    Other than that, I'd personally like them to make the firmware embed the actual WATE focal length in the EXIF. But this fix should be made to the M8 and M9 firmware as well.

    And an SDXC slot. Not because it's really going to write that fast, or it's needed, but for compatibility with cards 5 to 10 years into the future.

    Personally I don't care about live view, video, a hybrid VF, or other gadgetry. AFAIAC they could remove the rear LCD and most of the buttons in favor of an ISO dial and frame counter. Strip out all the firmware used to produce or record JPEG, preview, menus, etc. Not needed. Without an LCD I bet they could fit the M10 in an M6 form factor, and there would be less to break or go wrong with it.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    There are some things I question:
    Are the Leica M and Nikon (or Canon or Sony) lenses of "35mm" lenses are really up to such 30+MP resolution?
    Is the rangefinder focusing up to it?
    Will Nikon improve the low ISO IQ that i comes close to that of the CCD MF sensors?

    For me lens quality (for example contrast and sharpness wide open, OOF renderung,...) and the "look" of the current CCD sensors vs the current cmos sensors are more important factor than a few MP more or less.
    Leica M lenses (at least most of the newer ones) are definitely up to 40MP resolution.

    Nikon, Canon for sure not (IMHO) Sony (Zeiss) I also did not feel are up to it, I was not even happy with those lenses on my A900 with "only" 24MP.

    The "look" of CCDs vs. CMOS - I am not sure I am following this argument any longer. Especially as I have experienced what an E5 con get out of this "old" 12MP Live Mos sensor from Panasonic of course in combination with top pro level Zuiko glass, which is by no measn second to any Leica glass!

    So stay tuned for the next revolution in digital photography with the upcoming M10 - I am not allowed to say more unfortunately

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That's been the on-going argument about 35mm verses MFD for years. And still, the 22 meg backs IQ/tonal gradations outperformed 25 meg DSLRs even with updated Nano-coated optics on my D3X (at least in every test I tried in order to eliminate the expense of MFD)... and I suspect that'll remain true, depending on one's degree of need/final use. The larger sensor has not been superseded by some other form of technology yet ... and as long as it is CMOS/AA filters verses CCD I doubt it will.

    Meg count without the factor of sensor size is an incomplete story. For me the S2 is there ... not going to be there, maybe be there, or could be there. Pretty much a 35mm DSLR replacement for most applications I need ... horses for courses.

    Something looking expensive is relative. If you already have a 40 meg MFD, it doesn't matter much then. You just use it and make photographs. Worrying about what may be coming, could be coming, doesn't help make photographs now.

    That said, I also have a H4D/60 big horse for the courses that require it ...

    -Marc
    Marc,

    you are exactly coming to the point - CMOS with AA filters versus CCD without AA. But try CMOS without AA (or at least with very weak AA filters) - would open your eyes

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by edmund View Post
    Very interesting everyone --- sounds like it will be a while until they release one.

    My guess is that it will at least have the LED brightlines seen in the M9T.

    Are there a lot of structural changes that are needed to put in a higher MP sensor?

    If not, Im hoping Leica allows us to "upgrade" the sensor on the M9s ---- I think these cameras are at a price point too high to adopt the Apple business model of introduce new technology/chips each year --- of course, if you wanted new LED framelines/etc you'd need to buy a new body... but the sensor should be able to be swapped out no?
    Upgrading sensors on M9 - - thats really a good one! Upgrading sensors on any of these digital cameras not specifically designed for this just forget! You need to have all the electronics changed as well for the new sensor and this means such an expensive thing that economically it simply will never happen.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    So stay tuned for the next revolution in digital photography with the upcoming M10 - I am not allowed to say more unfortunately
    Hi Peter
    Well, I'm glad that somebody knows what's going on! what with 36mp CMOS, light AA filter . . . . it sounds like an exciting thing . . . . but when?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Give me live view and I'll be very very happy. Right now I almost always choose a DSLR over the M9 when I have to do any type of tripod based shots.

    My second wish would be for a good LCD and most importantly an image preview function that actually lets you see the pixels at 100%.

    I would also not mind if they removed the mechanical rangefinder coupling and replaced it with an electronic one. The mechanical construction is fragile and it's way too easy to put the camera out of operation by simply bumping it into something.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    I wonder, which company will release first FF EVIL...
    It is a question of time only, not "if at all".

    As denoir mentioned, there are MANY users who do not need RF coupling, but would just like to use M lenses on FF with EVF\LCD, without or with very weak AA filter.

    I know, I am dreaming, but FF EVIL like Panasonic GH2 adapting M lenses would be very desired. Of course - it has nothing to do with "M".

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    The more I think about it, the less I'd change. Better High ISO performance and a slightly bigger, higher rez LCD is just about all I'd want changed.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    My wish list, would be a fast on board processor without delays in starting up/sleep mode and definitely a high res LCD. The sensor issue, is not that obvious, yes I would like higher ISO capability/live view, but not at the expense of IQ that is now achievable with the M9.
    Charles Kalnins
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    I don't have an M9 yet, but from what I've seen, high ISO capability and higher resolution LCD are the only things I would want. I actually don't mind the mechanical RF coupling.
    Scott

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Peter
    Well, I'm glad that somebody knows what's going on! what with 36mp CMOS, light AA filter . . . . it sounds like an exciting thing . . . . but when?
    You never know with Leica that's for sure

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    It may be that someone like Sony will introduce a NEX type camera with a EVF ... the current NEX is no slouch with M lenses mounted ... it is a hoot to use a monster 50/0.95 on it since focus can be absolutely nailed using the instantaneous LCD zoom feature.

    It's almost a digital CL with something like a little 28 mounted (I have kept an eye out for a C40 lens to keep on the NEX), the addition of an EVF would probably make it almost the same size as a CL. Then you'd have AF when you want it with the Sony lenses, and a respectable back-up for a M9.

    The question would be whether any company would place a FF sensor in one of these smaller electronic cameras ... I'd guess that is years off in the future, if at all. If anyone could, Sony could, since they make their own sensors.

    My biggest M digital wish is new firmware that improves the high ISO by a stop ... which is quite doable and has been done by other makers in past. Plus the addition of the same LCD Histogram display that the DMR had ... a thin line graph superimposed over the image ... it amazes me that no-one picked up on how well that worked.

    I'd be a happy puppy with just that, the LCD is okay as is, but that's because I use the M9 the same way I used a M7 for spontaneous photography, and don't use the LCD for anything than to confirm the shot, and sometimes composition. More studied work is best left to other camera types IMO.

    -Marc

  33. #33
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    i only hope there is a full frame digital solution for R lenses

    or there will be a m solution to use R lenses range coupled

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The question would be whether any company would place a FF sensor in one of these smaller electronic cameras ... I'd guess that is years off in the future, if at all. If anyone could, Sony could, since they make their own sensors.
    HI Marc
    This is an interesting point - I think the issue is that much of the 'point' of these mirrorless electronic cameras is the size . . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small! Let's face it, Sony are unlikely to produce such a camera just for us to mount our M lenses (and unlike you, although I found it fun to put the M lenses on the nex, I got bored in a couple of days - I'd rather put them on the M9!).

    Of course, one might argue (I think Leica would) that they've already placed a FF sensor in a smaller electronic camera. But I guess you mean that they need live view or an EVF or something to qualify.

    Lot's going on, but judging how often the bigger companies are refreshing their FF offerings, compared to the smaller sensor cameras, and with the squeezing of the FF cameras with more competitive MF offerings . . . I think I'd be rather surprised by another FF small electronic camera.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Some time ago, whenever subject was discussed on Leica forum - there were described TWO, SEPARATE, DIFFERENT - lines:
    - typical rangefinder (M8, M9, Mx)
    - totally new line, FF EVIL

    There are many typical rangefinder users, who love optical range (view) finder, simplicity, etc.
    But in parallel, there are thousands people, who would prefer, or have in parallel - LV, tiltable LCD, thing like this. Of course as FF accepting "M" lenses.

    I wonder if:
    a) that split between FF rangefinder and FF with LV will be kept (two separate lines)
    b) or there will be only M10, but with (maybe optional, alternative) LV
    c) or there will be next FF M and APS-C with LV?

    Ptomsu - any tip?

  36. #36
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    Some time ago, whenever subject was discussed on Leica forum - there were described TWO, SEPARATE, DIFFERENT - lines:
    - typical rangefinder (M8, M9, Mx)
    - totally new line, FF EVIL

    There are many typical rangefinder users, who love optical range (view) finder, simplicity, etc.
    But in parallel, there are thousands people, who would prefer, or have in parallel - LV, tiltable LCD, thing like this. Of course as FF accepting "M" lenses.

    I wonder if:
    a) that split between FF rangefinder and FF with LV will be kept (two separate lines)
    b) or there will be only M10, but with (maybe optional, alternative) LV
    c) or there will be next FF M and APS-C with LV?

    Ptomsu - any tip?
    No actually no tip ..... but what I could personally see as a good solution

    M10 with optical RF and LED frame lines like in M9 Titanium plus a EVF inserted if needed like in the Olympus EP2 or EPL2. They even could use the existing Olympus EFV, which already is very good. But as far as I know Leica they would develop their own which you the can buy as accessory for another €1500.-

  37. #37
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    - I think the issue is that much of the 'point' of these mirrorless electronic cameras is the size . . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small!
    One advantage I see in mirrorless (non-rangefinder) electronic cameras regardless of size is that RF or mirror box calibration is not an issue.

  38. #38
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    . . . . and full frame lenses just aren't that small!
    According to supposedly reliable rumours, you own at least two cameras that can mount lenses proving the opposite. Summicrons and FA Limiteds are for some reason smaller than most DX format lenses that I know of. Nikon agrees with you though. They seem to have decided that we are going to enter the new age of electronics with elephant lenses

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    According to supposedly reliable rumours, you own at least two cameras that can mount lenses proving the opposite. Summicrons and FA Limiteds are for some reason smaller than most DX format lenses that I know of. Nikon agrees with you though. They seem to have decided that we are going to enter the new age of electronics with elephant lenses
    Hi Jorgen
    I do indeed - however, try a decent quality mid range zoom . . . or a long telephoto.
    Still, you are right, and what I should have said is that other things being equal, FF lenses are considerably bigger than their cropped frame counterparts . . .better?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    One advantage I see in mirrorless (non-rangefinder) electronic cameras regardless of size is that RF or mirror box calibration is not an issue.
    Hi Doug
    I can see lots of advantages - including this one, and some disadvantages as well, perhaps Fuji have shown the way forwards by offering both?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Fascinating thread. I hope that many of the ideas discussed here are considered down the road. The M9 proves to me that a smaller camera can house a full frame sensor capable of high IQ results. The Pentax FA primes are rather compact SLR lenses capable of an image circles that encompasses a full frame sensor (unlike their tiny DA primes, where are made for crop sensors), so it's possible that pentax may consider such a move, though I am dubious, as there haven't been any recent FA prime releases and many new DA prime releases that are awesome and tiny).

    I also hope that someone packages the concept of the fuji EVF into something that's useable for RF's or a SLR style AF camera with lens interchangeability.

    All said and told, I am quite happy of the state of photogrpahy as is. I love love love the M9 and how it performs. I just received the K5 (thanks, Jono, for that addiction...haha), and gotta say that I am duly impressed....

    All in all, the good times appear here to stay!

    Best,
    Ashwin
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  42. #42
    Member erick.boileau's Avatar
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    At this point, I am just hoping that Leica would introduce an M9.x with a LiveView capability..... soon. It is definitely doable.
    with a kind of liveview or EVF I shall jump at once, without it I am still wondering if a M9 is for me
    .. I shall try one next Saturday

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesK View Post
    My wish list, would be a fast on board processor without delays in starting up/sleep mode and definitely a high res LCD. The sensor issue, is not that obvious, yes I would like higher ISO capability/live view, but not at the expense of IQ that is now achievable with the M9.
    Higher ISO is always a loss of Quality
    Last edited by erick.boileau; 24th March 2011 at 00:26.

  43. #43
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Quote Originally Posted by erick.boileau View Post
    Higher ISO is always a loss of Quality
    Not necessarily. Newer sensors typically have cleaner ISO levels than older ones. On my old Canon 350D ISO 400 was barely usable while on a modern camera it's barely noticeable.

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    Re: M10 - any news?

    Those that are concerned with increased resolution and high ISO will never be satisfied regardless of any improvements that can be made in the future. The people that chase after those things are, and will always be, eternally discontented

  45. #45
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    Re: M10 - any news?

    I like 50 or 100 ISO and 18 MP are enough for me on 24x36 :-)

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