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Thread: Leica pricing on the used market

  1. #51
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    My personal view is that current used prices will not be sustained in the longer term - the whole buying frenzy has a distinct bubble feel to it. I've used the present situation as an opportunity to reshuffle my own lenses without financial loss (and I've also unashamedly 'scalped' a couple of high demand lenses I was able to buy from stock and sell for a modest 15% or so profit). Being able to sell used (albeit mintish condition) lenses for significantly more than I paid is a welcome change from the days only five or six years ago when selling a mint Summilux bought new meant taking a financial haircut. I sold my like-new Noctilux F1 in (I think) 2005 for about 60% of what I paid for it - a price which is itself now about 25% of the going used rate.

    The present bubble seems to stem from a supply shortage largely outside Europe - probably a consequence of (or coinciding with) unexpected demand in North America and China. The situation in Europe seems different. There are waiting lists here in the UK but if you have a good relationship with one of the older dealers you don't have to wait very long. Probably a large element of luck but I recently obtained a 75 Summicron within a couple of days of asking and a new 35 Summilux within a week (the latter also, believe it or not, coming with a 10% discount).

  2. #52
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I'm curious as to why people see this as a bubble? Demand for Leica is increasing a lot, and there seems to be no indication of Leica increasing supply.

    I see the pricing as a trend and it would not surprise me if Leica is doing it as part of a longer term strategy to increase prices to match the used market, considering its obvious people are willing and able to pay such prices.

    I can't imagine dealers are happy when consumers are buying at retail and selling at a profit. So Leica will either have to increase supply or increase prices to level out the market, new and used.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Whether or not there's a bubble, I think the market is inflated by predatory buyers who seem to be buying lenses and then selling them on sites such as this one. I'll bet the dealers who sell to these people are thrilled to see them making more on the lenses than the dealers do.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Whether or not there's a bubble, I think the market is inflated by predatory buyers who seem to be buying lenses and then selling them on sites such as this one. I'll bet the dealers who sell to these people are thrilled to see them making more on the lenses than the dealers do.
    Yeah, seriously. Not just for the sake of reselling either. People with gear are selling if no no other reason than to take advantage of the situation and gouge the prices.

    "So let me get this straight. You want me to buy your used lens for 20% more than list, new?"

    I don't care if there's a waiting list or not. You can eat me.

  5. #55
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    You could just as well criticize buyers who are willing to pay a premium rather than wait. It takes both buyers and sellers to drive prices up.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Whether or not there's a bubble, I think the market is inflated by predatory buyers who seem to be buying lenses and then selling them on sites such as this one. I'll bet the dealers who sell to these people are thrilled to see them making more on the lenses than the dealers do.

  6. #56
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by tele_player View Post
    You could just as well criticize buyers who are willing to pay a premium rather than wait. It takes both buyers and sellers to drive prices up.
    Well, yeah. It takes two to tango and all that. The buyers are just as guilty for perpetuating this nonsense.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Are any of you willing to sell me a 50mm lens? My M9 arrives today and i have a 1956 coll cron to use on it for now...wanted some newer Leica glass but ebay prices are just beyond me!

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Or Zeiss?

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I think part of the problem is people ordering five lenses from just as many dealers (causing a stock shortage) and selling them on, here, on other forums and the 'bay for well above list. The greed of a few is affecting the many and it's sad because neither Leica or its dealers see any of that. Granted, they're moving product - but c'mon.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    http://www.igorcamera.com/leica_lenses.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonshine View Post
    Or Zeiss?
    currently there is a used 50.2 zeiss here: http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?o...Fixed%20Lenses

    A leica 50/2.8 can be found here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...086+4291372330


    A Zeiss 50/1.5 can be found here:

    http://www.igorcamera.com/leica_lenses.htm


    Good luck with your search.
    Last edited by seakayaker; 4th August 2011 at 09:36.

  11. #61
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Not wishing to argue, but this is just simple supply and demand in a global market, combined with a very low dollar (and I won't get into why that is.)

    Ordering 5 lenses from 5 dealers doesn't create a stock shortage; it just creates back orders. Leica only makes a relative handful of lenses in a given time period, there are simply more buyers than sellers in the current market.

    The price boosts are not just on the current lenses...

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Not wishing to argue, but this is just simple supply and demand in a global market, combined with a very low dollar (and I won't get into why that is.)

    Ordering 5 lenses from 5 dealers doesn't create a stock shortage; it just creates back orders. Leica only makes a relative handful of lenses in a given time period, there are simply more buyers than sellers in the current market.

    The price boosts are not just on the current lenses...
    Not seen as arguing, just passionate discussion.

    But see, the "supply and demand" IMO, is lopsided and somewhat artificial. Of course we all know about the issues as far as the Japanese supply chain, the weak dollar, Leica's limited production, etc. But I think people gaming the system are also contributing.

    It does create a shortage if they buy all five and sell 4-5 of them off for a personal profit! If they had no interest in actually keeping the lens, they shouldn't be ordering them. Or calling the dealer to say "let someone else have it." But I do believe this is more the exception than the rule. Why else would we see so many "LNIB" listings? Buyers remorse? Bullsh!t. Maybe some of the time. But like I said; call up the dealer and say "pass it on to the next person."

    Naturally, this affects used lenses as well as a result. I'm certainly not suggesting they're immune.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by leicashot View Post
    I'm curious as to why people see this as a bubble? Demand for Leica is increasing a lot, and there seems to be no indication of Leica increasing supply.

    I see the pricing as a trend and it would not surprise me if Leica is doing it as part of a longer term strategy to increase prices to match the used market, considering its obvious people are willing and able to pay such prices.

    I can't imagine dealers are happy when consumers are buying at retail and selling at a profit. So Leica will either have to increase supply or increase prices to level out the market, new and used.
    Economically, it can only be considered a bubble if:

    1. There is a sudden supply surge (Leica can mitigate demand outstripping supply)
    2. There is a sudden drop in demand (People en masse lose interest in photography or a large decline in wealth can't support Leica's prices)

    #1 is unlikely, unless they invent a new product that can be mass-produced and deflects interest from their M line. #2 is possible, but more likely due to the latter case, not the former.

  14. #64
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I disagree, there is no shortage creation. There are still 5 lenses on the market in that scenario.

    I sold a Leica lens for $1500 yesterday...I couldn't give this particular model away in 2009, I dumped them for $350-400. A 25 year old lens. I just put it up for sale, the auction and the bidders determined the price. The fact remains that the market is up, the demand is high. And no, this lens did not sell to Asia.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I disagree, there is no shortage creation. There are still 5 lenses on the market in that scenario.

    I sold a Leica lens for $1500 yesterday...I couldn't give this particular model away in 2009, I dumped them for $350-400. A 25 year old lens. I just put it up for sale, the auction and the bidders determined the price. The fact remains that the market is up, the demand is high. And no, this lens did not sell to Asia.
    Okay, agreed - but let me rephrase that, then. There's no shortage in the market - just from Leica directly. However, those "extras" floating around now are being sold at increasingly gouged prices when instead they could've been bought directly for what they're actually listed for. I sure won't be lining the pockets of sellers just because. I can wait.

    Of course, there are a LOT of different issues at play in the market right now. People new to Leica, people adapting lenses to other platforms, declining stocks of old/vintage stuff, earthquakes, crappy economies, yada yada yada... My gripe(s) are mostly aimed at a particular issue.

  16. #66
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Yes, that's the issue, the shortage from Leica directly.

    It's like any spot market. You can wait, and buy at retail, or you can buy now and pay for the convenience.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Yes, that's the issue, the shortage from Leica directly.

    It's like any spot market. You can wait, and buy at retail, or you can buy now and pay for the convenience.
    That's kind of my point though. The "shortage from Leica" wouldn't be as bad if people ordered lenses they actually intended on keeping and/or ordering only ONE. Granted, I'm sure the actual percentage of this being the case is probably small - but the effect does add up globally. Of course, if more were available for actual list price... More people would be buying them directly - so in the end, we'd likely still have to wait.

  18. #68
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    It's just like iPads after the first few weeks of launch, except unlike Apple, Leica hasn't stepped up to fill the demand.

    They could solve the issue by raising prices...what would you prefer?

    Can't stop the free market. If there is a profit to be made, there will be people to take advantage.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    All I know is that I'm not selling any Leica gear. Best investment ever. And I use it every day.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I guess it's fair to characterize the lack of lenses as a shortage but it's not an artificial one. Anybody remember Cabbage Patch Kids The real culprit, IMHO, is the skyrocketing demand from Asia. I suspect Leica is producing more lenses now then they ever have...it's just that demand has accelerated at an even higher pace.

  21. #71
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I also blame the consumers, but i guess if you're rich $8k is like $8 to many of us, so what can we do?

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by leicashot View Post
    I also blame the consumers, but i guess if you're rich $8k is like $8 to many of us, so what can we do?
    Don't forget that wealthy people also view Leica gear as a collectible item. I have noticed some people who I have bought used Leica gear from (i.e. lenses that may have been manufactured 10 years ago but look like they have never been used) also collect things like rare watches or have "weekend cars." Basically anything that's carefully made and in short supply attracts these people... all the better that they all have practical functions, like telling the time or getting from one place to another.

    While I think it's disappointing that these people often crowd out photographers who would likely use these lenses rather than display them in a case, they generally do sell them eventually in the secondary market, often for less than retail (but more than what they paid for them).

  23. #73
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by corposant View Post
    Don't forget that wealthy people also view Leica gear as a collectible item. I have noticed some people who I have bought used Leica gear from (i.e. lenses that may have been manufactured 10 years ago but look like they have never been used) also collect things like rare watches or have "weekend cars." Basically anything that's carefully made and in short supply attracts these people... all the better that they all have practical functions, like telling the time or getting from one place to another.

    While I think it's disappointing that these people often crowd out photographers who would likely use these lenses rather than display them in a case, they generally do sell them eventually in the secondary market, often for less than retail (but more than what they paid for them).
    I think the 'less than retail' concept is a thing of the past, which is why we now see one seller here capitalizing - not being negative, just a fact.

  24. #74
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by corposant View Post
    Economically, it can only be considered a bubble if:

    1. There is a sudden supply surge (Leica can mitigate demand outstripping supply)
    2. There is a sudden drop in demand (People en masse lose interest in photography or a large decline in wealth can't support Leica's prices)
    A bubble is a condition where rising prices creates speculative demand which drives up prices. It's demand-side, although high elasticity of supply is a prerequisite. But any condition of demand increasing faster than supply is not a bubble, it's simply basic elementary elasticity which sets prices. There is no bubble in Leica lenses; people buy $4000 lenses for $5000 because they want to use them and can afford to pay, not because they think it's a good speculative investment. They're well aware they'll never see that money again.

  25. #75
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    In my opinion, there are two ways of approaching this.


    1) The stock market model
    If the market price for these lenses are well above retail, I can't see the problem with selling them at these inflated prices. What is the alternative? Sell them at a more "reasonable" price? In that case, you're just leaving profit on the table for the buyer. If I'm selling a lens, and there is profit to be made, I'm not gonna give that profit to some guy on a forum, which I never met (or will meet) in real life.

    2) The artist/photographer model
    Cameras and lenses are to be purchased by photographers who are gonna use them, not people investing in them for later sales.

    The problem with Leica is that if you keep anything for a year or two, you're more or less doomed to make a profit. Of course, you can choose to give this profit to the next guy, and only charge what you paid for it (or less), that is up to you.

    Everyone has the option of getting on a waiting list for these sought after lenses, it's not some secret club. Personally, I believe that Leica should raise the prices with immediate effect. To me, as a Leica user, I would highly prefer the profit to go back into the company that design and build these lenses - not some guy with a business model.

    If some of you happen to be in Norway/Oslo, visit Interfoto - they have a 50mm Summilux ASPH in stock. After you deduct the VAT, you'll pay around $3900. A bit above retail for you US guys, but at least better than some of those $5000-lenses I've seen floating around.

    Or you can wait a week or so for me to get my 35mm pre-ASPH Summilux back from Sherry Krauter, and buy some classic Leica glass for half that price

  26. #76
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Cameras like this ain't exactly gonna help the Leica used market come down

    http://dpreview.com/previews/ricohgxrmountA12/

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Robert

    I think we are using an incorrect analogy . Its more complicated as new super buyers have entered the market distorting the supply demand situation . Not at all like concert tickets they buy up everything and then attempt to control the market at much higher prices. As long as they are confident that supply can t be increased they are safe to buy and hold at prices well above true market . In essence they create a synthetic demand that keeps prices high.

    They are scalpers . They do great damage to Leica s dealer network by making the whole M systems to expensive for most and taking profits that should be going to the future Leica network.

    This is easy to break up. The French took out all the scalpers at the French Open by requiring every ticket to be registered to a specific owner . You can resell your tickets at list thru the ticket system and they will be available at list to a new buyer . This makes it almost impossible for a scalper to get in the middle .

    Lenses buyers might not care but buy a “new “ S2 from non authorized source and it can be stopped right at the warranty registration.

    Forum members that keep “testing the market” with crazy prices aren t participating in the spirit of this forum .

    And think it doesn t hurt the dealers? consider this scenario. Five members on a local wait list ..they want to support their local guy ...they hang with him on sat morning and they want to buy local or from someone they trust.
    The first three are the uber buyers (they buy everything new that comes out ) . So the dealer gets 2 noctiluxes ..the only two he is getting this year. He sells them to number 1 and number 2 . The other three on the wait list ...wait and wait for a year .. Then they get pissed off and put orders out everywhere . Then the two that got their Noctiluxes sell them on GETdpi for a healthy profit to a buyer in HK (makes the story better). And to make things better they brag about how much they made on the sale.




    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Not wishing to argue, but this is just simple supply and demand in a global market, combined with a very low dollar (and I won't get into why that is.)

    Ordering 5 lenses from 5 dealers doesn't create a stock shortage; it just creates back orders. Leica only makes a relative handful of lenses in a given time period, there are simply more buyers than sellers in the current market.

    The price boosts are not just on the current lenses...

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Forum members that keep “testing the market” with crazy prices aren t participating in the spirit of this forum .
    Agree with this wholeheartedly...it's distasteful. Take it to the bay where there is no spirit of community.

  29. #79
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Since many of the posters on this thread seem to also be involved on the buy/sell I will make a comment here as well.

    All of the bickering about intentions, price policing, etc that is going on with the buy/sell forum is getting old and must stop. We are actively moderating the threads, deleting inappropriate posts, closing threads, and giving warnings.

    If there is a problem on a thread, please don't exacerbate the situation by replying. Just report the posts and the moderators will do their job and moderate.

    There are so many buy/sell transactions that it is hard to look at them all so your cooperation and assistance is appreciated.

    Thanks.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Since many of the posters on this thread seem to also be involved on the buy/sell I will make a comment here as well.

    All of the bickering about intentions, price policing, etc that is going on with the buy/sell forum is getting old and must stop. We are actively moderating the threads, deleting inappropriate posts, closing threads, and giving warnings.

    If there is a problem on a thread, please don't exacerbate the situation by replying. Just report the posts and the moderators will do their job and moderate.

    There are so many buy/sell transactions that it is hard to look at them all so your cooperation and assistance is appreciated.

    Thanks.
    Terry,
    You are too nice
    it is getting so tiresome that the moderators are at the verge of issuing bans "to make an example".
    Please don't let it be you.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I might point out that buying used lenses (sorry, "tested around the house" is still used) that are currently available - especially at higher than MSRP is stupid. Unless you plan to use the seller as a middle-man for all future service - the warranty does not transfer and you'll have to get it fixed/adjusted on YOUR OWN DIME. Consider this before you buy a price-gouged item. This is why I have to laugh at people that obviously have more money than brains and buy these.

    And what the hell are people buying brand new, expensive lenses for if only to "test them out around the house?" That's bullsh!t. You bought the lens to resell and figured you'd give it a whirl while you had it. Congrats, you just "used" a lens.

  32. #82
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Hi Roger,

    I've had many discussions with Leica about some sort of registration system. It was particularly bad right after the M9 launch, as the camera was in such high demand. I would spend a lot of time with clients (some even members of this forum) who would place orders with me, only to have them cancel and buy elsewhere, when another dealer got in a shipment before we did.

    This of course is a regular event with lenses now...a funny side story looking back: Precision had new Leica lenses in stock for literally YEARS that did not move, until the M9 was released. They had one 50/2 Summicron silver in stock so long, that their accountants decided to write it off! So it was on the books for $0, yet still in stock (yes, made no real sense but that's an other discussion.) Needless to say, someone got a very good deal on that lens (a forum member here as a matter of fact.)

    It would make a lot of sense for a buyer to put in an order with a dealer, and be locked in with that dealer thru Leica. Leica would know that Joe Smith is on the list at dealer X, with an associated order date.

    As it is, many buyers (who are not scalpers at all, just photographers who want the camera or lens now, instead of months from now) are putting in orders with multiple dealers, and whichever dealer is lucky enough to get the first shipment gets the sale. Of course, when M9s were tight there was usually another customer right behind to take their place, but it ended up wasting a lot of the dealer's (my) time. Communicating with a customer 100+ times over several months, giving status reports, etc. only to end up losing the sale to another dealer in another state (due to a random event )after all that work is not a fun experience.

    Of course, Leica was very gracious when we described the registration idea. But that's as far as it went. They are always very polite when saying no, haha. Speaking frankly, they know they are going to sell everything they manufacture; so why do they need to do any extra work to support the dealers? It's just not going to happen.

    I have absolutely nothing against anyone buying something, and selling it at a profit. After all, that's what I do every day. But there is a place for selling gear to the highest offer...

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I for one think anyone who can sell a Leica anything for more than retail, should be able to do so if they wish.

    After decades of taking a scalding bath on photographic gear ... especially digital stuff that changes faster than a clown at a kid's party, it is refreshing to see at least someone making up for it ... even if it's at the expense of some impatient "must haver" ... so what?

    Like has been said by many others ... never sell your Leica M stuff, you may never be able to buy it again

    -Marc

  34. #84
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I'm curious what would happen if I, representing an authorized dealer, listed a 35 Lux FLE for $8650 or a Noct at $14,000 on this forum.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I'm curious what would happen if I, representing an authorized dealer, listed a 35 Lux FLE for $8650 or a Noct at $14,000 on this forum.
    You'd be laughed out of town - and rightfully so. Unfortunately though, I don't think Leica would pull your dealership status.

    It's sad that people feel the need to take advantage of the market, other forum members and hurt them, Leica and their dealers.

    I will not take part in this and certainly won't line the pockets of cretins that try to do so.

  36. #86
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    What I say applies to ' luxury ' items like Leica lenses.

    Sell a lens for as high a price as one can get in a market. If someone buys it,
    good. You made a profit. There is nothing immoral or unethical about it.

    The only caveat is that one did not misrepresent the condition of the article being sold.

    It is how the market has worked all along.

    What's wrong if one buys 3 lenses, keeps one for his/her use and sells the others at a profit.

    Get real. Look around you, that is how the market operates.

    Pay to play. or look for another playground of a little less luxury.

    Point of view it is. A $1 can help a starving child. $4000 buys a lens.
    It is really a matter of priorities and one's point of view.

  37. #87
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    ...The only caveat is that one did not misrepresent the condition of the article being sold.

    It is how the market has worked all along.

    What's wrong if one buys 3 lenses, keeps one for his/her use and sells the others at a profit...
    Maybe this is how you do business. It's clear this is how some people here do business. Call it what you want - but it's greedy and disgusting.

    Misrepresentation. "LNIB" or "this is a new lens" when you've "taken test shots off the balcony" is wrong. It's now a USED LENS, period. Further more, buying a lens whether or not the person "tested it" has no warranty. It stops with the original buyer. So what if it's a hot lens? Why should I pay more for less?

    Buying multiple copies. I, as an honest Leica customer can't buy a lens because some sh!thead ordered five of them with the intent of reselling them at a generous profit is also WRONG. Perhaps not illegal, and "how the market works" but it's still unethical and proves to me the kind of person the seller is. On principle I will not do business with such types.

    Call it what you want, condone this behavior all you want. It's still not right.

  38. #88
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    No point in getting all upset about high prices for luxury items. And no point in calling people names.

    Making a profit..an honest profit..is neither immoral nor unethical. Specially when we are restricting ourselves to luxury items.

    For many many years certain regions of the world had access to Leica lenses.
    They were priced for that market.

    There have been collectors of all things..stamps, gold coins etc.

    Now other regions seem to have the resources to play too. The same ' game ' that was played by others.

    Just because someone buys 2 houses instead of 1 does not make him or her dishonest. If a profit is made, honestly..good luck. Else the buyer suffers the loss.

    Can't afford something, look for something else. One should get their priorities right, their financial management realistic, and their expectations in line with market prices..for luxuries of life like yatchs, gulfstream jets, and Leica lenses.

    No use saying that the Lear jet costs have increased or that of Leica lenses.

    Take a train ( if one has one ) or a bus. Or better use a cv lens.

    If one always looks up, one is not thankful for what one has. Should look at those that cannot dream of affording a camera. Leica or otherwise.

    p.s as to selling lenses..I would never sell to a buyer that wants yesterday's prices.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Maybe it's just me. But I think of photography as a passion and as a means of supporting myself in business. if I buy a lens, it's to USE it for same. If I want to sell something, especially to fellow forum members that I converse with, often on a daily basis - I'm not going to try and screw them. I'll ask a FAIR market value for the item.

    This notion that Leica gear is a "luxury item" may be true to an extent, but it's also a tool for actual photographers - not just speculators, collectors and bottom feeders. And it seems to me that the FS section here at GetDPI has been running amok of late.

    In the end, a few greedy people pocket profits and in the meantime, honest photographers, Leica and their dealers are getting screwed. Thanks to these people, Leica may very well one day decide to jack up the prices - trying to get some of this cheese for themselves. Again, the honest people will get screwed.

    The irony is when these same people that gouge their own sale prices then lowball you on yours, which are fairly priced!

    Anyway, I've said my peace on this nonsense. I'm done. I hope that GetDPI can return to its former normality and friendliness, or I for one - will no longer take part.

  40. #90
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    It is a free market system, GetDPI provides a website that allows Sellers to set their price and the Buyers to decide if they want to pay that price. Guy and Jack set this up so that members of the community can buy and sell their gear in an open marketplace free from fees. So if a seller wants to unload his xx gear so that he/she can buy some yy gear they set a price that they feel is reasonable if someone wants to buy that lens/camera/widget for xx$ then great, more power to the seller. But when the seller stockpiles a whole cache of lenses bought from various dealers all over the world with the intent to profit, then sells them on the forum, that borders on commercial sales.

    It is tempting to do this, what other investment today can net you 30% return in a couple of days? I am not innocent of making a profit, nor innocent of taking a loss as well. Lenses that I bought years ago sold for much more than I bought them so I am guilty of turning a profit. But I made the profit based on market prices and not with the purpose of cornering the market and selling at a premium.

    I travel frequently and have in the past few months found little dealers that still had stock on their shelves. I must admit that I was tempted to purchase the entire inventory of 35 Luxes and sell them on the 'bay for a handsome profit. But instead I posted the availability on this forum for members to benefit from this information. I can only hope that they did not buy and sell for a profit but instead enjoyed the use of the lens.

    Ring, Ring . . . my conscious is calling :-)
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Just because one is an ' honest ' photographer does not mean other photogs are dishonest.

    It also does not mean Leica or I owe an ' honest ' photographer to produce or sell a lens at a price that is not suitable for a business or for a person.

    This is not ' nonsense '. This is a fact of life. The fact of a market based economy for luxury items.

    An item value is relative. Luxury for one might be a necessity for another.

    Normality is the market price..specially for luxury items.

    As I said before, nobody is ' screwing ' others. Asking price it is. If one does not get it, the price might be lowered.

    On the other side, If one cannot afford it..don't play in the market.

    For really good friends, one might even part with a lens below market price.
    That does mean finding two really good friends.

    Anyways, no one is indispensable. The forum shall continue. Just as as life does and will. With or without me or anybody else.

    And so shall the markets.

  42. #92
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    "I'm curious what would happen if I, representing an authorized dealer, listed a 35 Lux FLE for $8650 or a Noct at $14,000 on this forum."

    Other than whatever problems you might have with Leica, the answer is easy: the free marketeers would applaud you and your decision, and others, like me, would question your ethics.

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "I'm curious what would happen if I, representing an authorized dealer, listed a 35 Lux FLE for $8650 or a Noct at $14,000 on this forum."

    Other than whatever problems you might have with Leica, the answer is easy: the free marketeers would applaud you and your decision, and others, like me, would question your ethics.
    This is the truth.
    Whatever you do, you will be judged, and depending on the orientation of the observer, you may be judged differently.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    I'm with Marc: we should be happy that Leica demand outstrips supply, and that all my current lenses are worth more than they were a couple of years ago. This NEVER happens with camera equipment. And, I'm cheerful about the premium I paid for my hard-to-find lens, especially as I use it almost every day. It was money well spent.

  45. #95
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "I'm curious what would happen if I, representing an authorized dealer, listed a 35 Lux FLE for $8650 or a Noct at $14,000 on this forum."

    Other than whatever problems you might have with Leica, the answer is easy: the free marketeers would applaud you and your decision, and others, like me, would question your ethics.
    Of all the responses I thought that post would generate, I have to admit I didn't expect people to think Leica would have an issue with selling over list price. Minimum advertised price (MAP) is common in the industry, but I've never heard of a maximum.

    Seriously, there is nothing in the Leica dealer agreement that would prevent this. What's interesting is that sales on ebay are prevented, yet, some high profile dealers do this all the time. One in particular seemed to have a never ending supply of lenses that were listed as used, but never actually used (USED, ESTATE SALE, NEVER MOUNTED ON A CAMERA.)

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Of all the responses I thought that post would generate, I have to admit I didn't expect people to think Leica would have an issue with selling over list price. Minimum advertised price (MAP) is common in the industry, but I've never heard of a maximum.

    Seriously, there is nothing in the Leica dealer agreement that would prevent this. What's interesting is that sales on ebay are prevented, yet, some high profile dealers do this all the time. One in particular seems to have a never ending supply of lenses that are listed as used, but never actually used (USED, ESTATE SALE, NEVER MOUNTED ON A CAMERA.)

    Might that imply that buyers have a habit of "having the big one" upon opening the credit card envelope after a lens is purchased?
    And Leica, well if I saw gear going for significantly greater than msrp, and if there was no competitive reason against it I would raise prices.
    -bob

  47. #97
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Heh, be careful, Leica is dangerous to your health!

  48. #98
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Heh, be careful, Leica is dangerous to your health!
    Typically the initial purchase is merely dangerous to your wealth
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Pricing is determined by the market.

    We are talking about ' luxury' goods.

    If someone offered to sell me a leica lens at an exorbitant price, and the lens
    was in perfect condition ( or as described by the seller ), I have the following options..

    1: not buy the lens.

    2: bargain to get a better price.

    3: buy the lens.

    Ethics does not enter into the picture at all. The seller is honest. The item
    being sold is as described. The market price might be lower or higher; the seller is setting his price.

    I am not forced to buy this lens. Or any leica equipment. There are competing brands available. I want Leica..I have to pay the asking price. Or make do without it.

    I want to go to the Antartic. The P&O cruise lines are charging me too much!!
    Oh! whatever shall I do. I cannot afford the royal suite!! They should lower
    their price for my vacation. Or they must be unethical, because they know
    I want this cruise and I want the Royal Suite.

    Oh! the misery of it all!! And I want the M9-P priced like my M8; to take it on vacation.
    Life is so so unfair.

  50. #100
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    The free marketeers ignore two things:

    First, this is supposed to be a forum of friends, and you don't gouge your friends when dealing with them;

    Second, there is a selfish aspect to many of the defenders of the market, i.e., "I already have all the Leica gear I want, so I'm happy with rising prices, and screw everyone else."

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