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Thread: Leica pricing on the used market

  1. #101
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Friends don't ask friends to sell them items below market, and especially in this market (Leica camera equipment, not bottled water after a hurricane) I'm hardly being gouged if I cheerfully agree to pay a premium over retail. We all benefit from a dynamic growing market--even if we are just entering it--compared to a stagnant or declining market.
    Last edited by Terry; 5th August 2011 at 14:43. Reason: irrelevant comment

  2. #102
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by TimothyHyde View Post
    Friends don't ask friends to sell them items below market...
    I don't have to ask my friends to do this...they offer...as do I if I have something they want which I no longer need. At the end of the day it pretty much all evens out and, if I've left a few bucks on the table...it went to a friend. I can think of a lot worse ways to lose money.

  3. #103
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Who's saying anything about selling below market value? Where did that come from?

  4. #104
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    There is an important distiction thats gets lost in he discussion of market pricing. Maybe an example will help.

    I have Noct 0.95 that i bought when they came out and could now sell for huge profit. Certainly i can ask what I like .its a free market . But i would never post it as "testing the market " . Still I should be able to sell it if I want to and ask any price without heckling .

    But that is different from buying for resale . Really do you think the 20 brand new 50 summiluxes on ebay are anything but people taking advantage of the market. This is where members that support their local dealers are getting screwed by others that get on wait lists to make a fast buck.

    Add to that the intolerable boasting about how much the seller is making isnt going to create a friendly forum.

    I don t advocate action from the moderators unless you see intential manipulation . No question the situation sucks (another technical term) and a small number of our members are aking it worse.

  5. #105
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Market price is the value set by the market, of course, and is different from retail price. The market value of a Noctilux f/0.95 is somewhere between $13,000 and $15,000. Like it or not, that is what buyers are willing to pay for this lens today. The retail value is $10,400, but of course they are pretty difficult to find today. (My Leica dealer tells me he could sell 15 of them today if he could get them.) At some price point, I would be willing to sell my f/0.95 and put myself back on a waiting list to get another sometime in the future. ($15,000 is not it.) As the prices rise in the face of this scarcity, more people are willing sell, keeping a study supply of these lenses in the marketplace.

    Of course, an economic crash in China or a sudden increase in the supplies of new lenses to the Leica dealers could change this overnight, but that is also a characteristic of markets.

  6. #106
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Add to that the intolerable boasting about how much the seller is making isnt going to create a friendly forum.

    I don t advocate action from the moderators unless you see intential manipulation . No question the situation sucks (another technical term) and a small number of our members are aking it worse.
    Roger,

    I couldn't agree more. There are certain aspects of this current trend, which seems to be a recent thing from a select group of members that I think we could all easily identify, that is thoroughly distasteful. I could probably identify the very first set of sale listings at inflated prices with their "justification" that started this trend. Unfortunately for some reason my part of the country seems to be ground zero for it. (actually I do have an idea why)

    It IS a free market and I certainly wouldn't advocate anything else but I think that even the mods are bothered by the recent Leica gouging trends. Certainly moderation isn't required but unfortunately the only way to change this place as being a gougers market is not to pay the prices or buy. Passive resistance initially seems futile but long term it certainly can work.

    Personally I do understand the reasons for paying a premium to get equipment you want now rather than waiting for months and months. Heck, I've done it myself with gear before and certainly a few times with sports cars in my younger days when money really wasn't that much of an impediment. I think that what is maybe different now is that folks are not asking for a small premium but are looking to make literally thousands of $ and 30%+. For me, that's what makes the current trend distasteful. Just vote with your wallet and don't buy.

    For those that have bought at a premium, good luck to you but just recognize what this does to the market the next time YOU want to buy something else.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  7. #107
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    There is an important distiction thats gets lost in he discussion of market pricing. Maybe an example will help.

    I have Noct 0.95 that i bought when they came out and could now sell for huge profit. Certainly i can ask what I like .its a free market . But i would never post it as "testing the market " . Still I should be able to sell it if I want to and ask any price without heckling .

    But that is different from buying for resale . Really do you think the 20 brand new 50 summiluxes on ebay are anything but people taking advantage of the market. This is where members that support their local dealers are getting screwed by others that get on wait lists to make a fast buck.

    Add to that the intolerable boasting about how much the seller is making isnt going to create a friendly forum.

    I don t advocate action from the moderators unless you see intential manipulation . No question the situation sucks (another technical term) and a small number of our members are aking it worse.
    I have the same situation. Upon even mentioning that I may have to sell my 0.95 to fund something else, I received a number of PM offers to buy at higher than retail price.

    It isn't the seller's driving this current situation ... it is the buyers that are willing to pay a premium to have something exotic right now. No one would be listing stuff at inflated prices if there wasn't a market for it.

    -Marc

  8. #108
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Leica should just raise prices substantially until they reach an equilibrium between supply and demand.

  9. #109
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    No Leica needs to increase their production. If they just increase their prices and still continue at snail pace all it will do is just raise prices even more than they are now.

    This actually reminds me of real estate markets in Florida and Las Vegas. At one point it got so idiotic that all u needed to do was fart at the right time. Everybody all of a sudden became "professional flipper". Fast forward few years and lot of those flippers are gone, prices collapsed and a lot of neighborhoods got wiped out.

    This recent Leica trend is pointing that way. and as all good things it will come to an end. What will it take I don't know but all the signs are pointing in that direction. It did happen already not too long ago. Just look at some of the FS threads.

    Me personally - I will wait until prices come down from the clouds and maybe I'll venture back into Leica equipment some day. For now I'm perfectly happy with my "horrible" x100

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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    the leica market needs an Opec

  11. #111
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    thats good one

  12. #112
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Leica have increased production, but still not enough. They are planning an entire new facility for manufacture, which includes a museum and showroom. Hopefully by the end of 2012 we'll see reasonable production levels to coincide with the M10

  13. #113
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Daniel,
    Indeed, that is what I am hoping for--an M10 late next year with a new Lux or Cron 35mm. (I was planning on getting an M9 in January, but will wait a couple more seasons for the M10.)

  14. #114
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    This is just my take on the whole thing and here are my complaints. Price gouging has done nothing but left a sour taste in my mouth about people that take up what inventory they can, only to sell it off at a much higher price. It detracts from the friendly community of this forum and makes the whole experience less pleasant. Sure, I don't have to buy a lens that is priced outrageously but in all honesty, the inflation caused by other people is muscling out others in this market. There will be wasted talent if prices rise so high that only the super rich can afford camera gear. (Sure you could use a cheap camera but we all know there's nothing more fun than shooting an M!) Its sad because for many of us photography is our greatest passion.

    All of this aside, what are we supposed to do about it? Nothing. I don't support the price gouging but what's the point of me complaining? If prices are rising there is nothing anyone can do about it. I cant stand price gouging but the market is far too big to try resist. The product is in high demand, it is inelastic and the supply is low. If I was Leica I would increase production to expand the market base, rope in a bunch more suckers like ourselves and then let prices rise. As for the free marketeers, you are completely right because nobody cares about being ethical. If there is money to be made it will be made.

    Off the top of my head: If GetDPI really is its own submarket with higher than normal prices, I recommend people buying up new gear and selling at MSRP here on the site. Flood this submarket and watch prices come down to a more normal level. Fight the price gougers with their own medicine! Now who's got a spare 100k?!

  15. #115
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    The best advice I can give anyone is simply do not buy at these prices over list. If no one sells them the prices will drop to normal. All your doing when buying them is keeping the supply low and in demand. Personally from me to you guys there is really nothing new out there that smokes anything that has not been out for awhile anyway. I shot many of lenses with the M8 and all the best glass and those where awesome lenses and worked great on full frame M9s as well. You simply do not need the latest and greatest here. Sure they are nice but so is a old 50 pre asph summilux. Need to decide what your after and there are many older lenses with a great look. Folks just need to look around for some good fair prices and ignore these inflated new lenses, trust me when you paying a 5 k difference between a old vs a new it ain't worth the cost at the end of the day.

    One of the bigger issues is people are buying into the hype. Need to use your head here and not play follow the leader.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  16. #116
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Seriously buying a 10 k lens is not going to do a damn thing to make you a better shooter or even provide better IQ. I wish people took half that money and used it to actually learn to be a better shooter or take a great trip somewhere to shoot.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  17. #117
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Seriously buying a 10 k lens is not going to do a damn thing to make you a better shooter or even provide better IQ. I wish people took half that money and used it to actually learn to be a better shooter or take a great trip somewhere to shoot.
    Guy, you said it all and quite succinctly.....nothing substitutes for the experiences of both educating oneself in the variety of ways one can becomes a better photographer and also time spent with some of the equipment they have and learning the multitude of ways to get the most out of it. Its been said a zillion times, that when a great image is viewed by others, it's generally because of the innate knowledge and "eye" of the photographer, whereby his choice of lenses and cameras eventually helps him capture the image he envisions (whether for professional or personal use), but that's after he's gained knowledge and experience. A great trip(s) in part, as Guy expressed, provide a wonderful vehicle to achieve quite a bit of this. Beyond this I beleive, is where we begin to make somewhat intellegent choices of purchases, knowing (and hoping) that particular lenses or cameras will help us achieve a set of objectives or certain types of images and that its worth spending the often times large sums of money on specific equipment in order to order to be able to achieve this.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 8th August 2011 at 06:29.

  18. #118
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Leica have increased production, but still not enough. They are planning an entire new facility for manufacture, which includes a museum and showroom. Hopefully by the end of 2012 we'll see reasonable production levels to coincide with the M10
    Of course how can they skip on a museum and showroom. I bet those will be first to go live

  19. #119
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Quote Originally Posted by kalex View Post
    Of course how can they skip on a museum and showroom. I bet those will be first to go live
    That is the nature of Leica, a strong sense of history and pride. Don't like it, don't support it! Vote with your wallet.

    Would you prefer they shifted production to Japan? China? Mass produced their lenses and cameras with plastic gears for a cheaper price and higher volume?

    They were - at the introduction of the M9 - a company struggling at the brink, bailed out by an individual (Andreas Kaufmann) who had a passion for the brands traditions and heritage. If it weren't for the heritage there would be no Leica, so a museum is quite justified and important, a safe place to display and celebrate their history. The showroom is a place for people to have access to every currently manufactured Leica product for demo purposes, also very important - and I would certainly visit if I were in Germany.

    They have experienced a very rapid rise in demand, Canon have typical shortages when a new camera is announced but they can just crank the machines up to 11 and hire more moderately-trained staff. Leica have to expertly train every technician, a painstaking process at best - but they are committed to increasing their workforce, in their own way. They are also the only camera brand I am aware of that puts all of its profits back into R&D, no ridiculous bonus cheques for CEO's (although they did recently pay dividends to shareholders). They're actually a much more ethical and upstanding company than most immediately assume based on the cost of their products.

  20. #120
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Kaufmann doesn't exactly need a bonus, but they should pay him at least Steve Jobs salary.

  21. #121
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Well said Daniel!!

  22. #122
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Leica pricing on the used market

    Haha yes, I think Kaufmann is very happy with his investment. It's like a kid buying his favourite toy factory to ensure he always has a steady supply of his favourite action figure.

    Although, Kaufmann at a recent interview noted that he wants an M9-P, but is sticking with his M9 until pre-orders are filled, because the customer comes first. When it comes down to it he could easily walk into the factory and say "I want an M9-P" and they'd give him the next one off the manufacturing line, but that's just not the kind of guy he is

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