Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: When is an R not an R?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    When is an R not an R?

    From Michael Reichman at LL:

    "A Leica MF (Medium Format) system is almost definitely on the horizon, but specifics will have to wait for an official announcement.

    Apparently there are still many details to be resolved, so don't believe much of what you read, other than the fact that something is cooking.

    Michael"

    With No R lenses coming at PK and with Kaufmann simply referring to 'reflex' vs R10 or R-line and with all the Jenoptik (sic?) hugs & kisses of late, the new R looks like it may very well NOT be a 35mm SLR.

    Makes more sense for them to enter the awakening MFDB sub-market with a partner than try and develop a manual focus uber-ISO 35mm DSLR - they'd get their lunch eaten for them. Stick to manual focus uber-glass and (relatively) low-ISO performance sans AA filter.

    IF true, they may allow it to have a sub-MF mode (like D3 Dx mode) that would allow older R glass to be used via some $1000 adapter (;>).

    I don't even want to guess what the all-in price would be for a decent kit. My heart isn't that strong.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Reykjavik, Iceland
    Posts
    2,310
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    How about a digital answer to the Mamiya 7 with multiple sensor options? Sub 10K 22mp version, Sub 20k 33mp version and skies the limit 50mp+ version. The likelihood of this is infinitesimal, but it would be a way to reestablish their position of having the best image quality in photography (well, at least relative to their film size).

    Anyway, they have their agreement to cooperate on products with Sinar, so there is very good reason to believe that something will come of it.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
    My lab is here: http://www.customphotolab.is and on facebook

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    A digital mamiya 7 would be nice - interesting concept, combine RF and MF.

  4. #4
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    In my opinion a camera is no longer an R camera if you cannot mount R mount lenses on it without use of adapters. The system letter "R" designates the mount in my understanding.
    The mount is the most crucial single point in any interchangeable lens "system".

    Changing mount is quite all right, I can think of many very good reasons to do such a thing.
    Like changing from film optimized optics & mount to digital optimized optics & mount e.g. for telecentric design purposes. Or changing format of the image circle, or whatever.
    So discontinuing the DMR and at the same time or shortly after deciding to change the R mount to a new mount in the future is fair enough. In my opinion.
    But it is definitely not fair enough not to tell it to the customers if the R mount at this stage is in fact discontinued and has been so for e.g. a year or so.
    On the contrary, that would be scandalous, and a very, very unwise behaviour. In my personal opinion.

  5. #5
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    317
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    The R mount would not be necessarily discontinued. Could be used with other mounts on a Sinar M-type camera.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Apparently there is a story going round (for what that's worth) of some pro being briefly shown a Leica-badged camera that, he indicated, bore a strong resemblance to the old Contax 645 body...

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    The R mount would not be necessarily discontinued. Could be used with other mounts on a Sinar M-type camera.
    Are you referring to the following?
    BernardS1975 wrote:
    > I talked to a Leica collector who claimed that he was able to see a
    > prototype of a new MF Leica camera. It is allegedly all European
    > (German and Swiss), looks like a Contax 645 without a digital back,
    > it is black and does not look similar to Hy6, it is able to shoot DNG
    > and JPEG files simultaneously, the focal plane shutter is based on
    > the design of Sinar-M and is manufactured in Schweizerland, the
    > reflex unit is smaller than 645 and is of German origin. The most
    > confusing part of this rumour that the collector was sure that the
    > new MF Leica did not have card slots and had the internal memory. No
    > info on the sensor, he was told that the size was not finalized and
    > it was planned to use the same Kodak sensor the less expensive Sinar
    > back will have.
    > Bernard
    > --
    I own a Sinar-M modular and the shutter unit is pretty big even without a bottom or side batteries.
    And I doubt that an R lens will cover even smallest MF Sinar sensor. Right now Sinar have the 22 mpx Kodak sensor they use in 54m and 54H backs and its size is 49.0 x 36.7 mm.

    Yevgeny
    P.S. I will be happy to get a small modular MFD camera with focal plane shutter, with a small 44 x 33 (or s bit smaller) sensor around 28 mpx and a possibility to use all kind of lenses, even exotic Leica R glass. As of today Sinar-M use Hasselblad V lens mount.
    Yevgeny

  8. #8
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    317
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    ...I doubt that an R lens will cover even smallest MF Sinar sensor...
    I thought the Sinar M can use 35mm lenses (Nikon?). Am I missing something?

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    I thought the Sinar M can use 35mm lenses (Nikon?). Am I missing something?
    I was referring to the R lens coverage and the claim that allegedly Leica will be using a Sinar-m shutter in a new camera.
    Yes, you are right.
    AFAIK Sinar-M can be used with 3 front modules:
    - Nicon mount mirror box module (Manual focusing, discontinued)
    - Hasselblad (Manual) and without the viewfinder and mirror box,
    - AF Digital Module, reflex, Mamiya 645 type prism (hasselblad V mount).
    Yevgeny

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    IF it's true and this is Leica's new reflex body (no R10) , while it sounds interesting, it will appeal to a far narrower user base than the much hoped for R9/DMR successor.

    For every 1 MFD users or potential MF convert interested in the system there will be 10 R users (holding a boat load of glass that has just dropped in value) ready to storm the castle gates as it were.

    Going to be interesting - one way or the other.

  11. #11
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    As we speak Leica is still selling brand new R lenses through the dealers without any added information whatsoever about the R mount being discontinued.
    To keep a discontinuation a secret while still selling these expensive R optics would be deeply unethical. In my opinion.
    That’s why I still believe we will actually see a new true R mount DSLR, i.e. a camera taking R lenses without any need of adapters. Maybe manufactured in cooperation with a partner like e.g. Panasonic, but still a true R mount camera.
    Otherwise the mount is in fact discontinued and has been so for quite a while, in my understanding.

  12. #12
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    317
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Film cameras still exist for current lenses. R mount for film and MF mount for digital? Would border on the imbecilic to me as i don't see the point of loosing 10 R customers to gain a couple MF users but the rumour of a new mount is becoming astounding i'm afraid....

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    111
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    Film cameras still exist for current lenses. R mount for film and MF mount for digital? Would border on the imbecilic to me as i don't see the point of loosing 10 R customers to gain a couple MF users but the rumour of a new mount is becoming astounding i'm afraid....
    If we believe the rumor on Leica association with Sinar/Jenoptik, than why Leica won't use the R modified lens mount; Sinar did that with their Sinaron Digital AF module. It is possible to mount the AF Sinaron Zeiss lenses AND all Hasselblad manual lenses without an adapter!
    Excuse my ignorance, is the R mount too small for a 30 mpx. Kodak sensor with micro-lenses? The older lenses can be used in a "crop" mode...
    Yevgeny

  14. #14
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    317
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Matter of price and size to me. R owners have been used to buy their bodies more or less the same price as M cameras and some (most?) of them did prefer the M-type size of the R4/R7s over that of late R8/R9 bodies. Now Leica would ask them to accept a kind of Godzilla camera to use their dear lenses in crop mode and pay this honor twice the usual price? As far as i'm concerned it's a no-no. I'd keep my R lenses in the hope that Leica becomes reasonable soon or late (?) but my next stuff would be a D700 or A900 with 3 or 4 Zeiss lenses most probably.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Agree with LCT. For 90% of R users out there, it's not really a matter if the R mount is large enough to project on a 30MP MFDB, but the fact that they are expecting/hoping for and used to shooting in a 35mm format and form factor.

    For them, a MFDB, regardless of sensor size, means $$$$ for a new back, maybe some costly (they would be from Leica and one has to assume new MF lenses as no new R lenses are supposedly coming) adapters, a new format, more computing power and storage required, clean ISO performance that caps out, if their lucky, at 800 vs 2000+ or so for the new far cheaper DSLR offerings, etc., etc. Then there is the question, since most will not be pros, do/will they print large enough to justify the $$$?

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    More fuel for the fire:

    From LUG:

    "I was at my New York Leica dealer this week, in the store, and he claimed the R system/lenses is dead. The new Leica will be medium-format, not compatible with existing R lenses.

    He said "look, dealers are already selling off R equipment, we can buy it at a discounted rate from Leica".

  17. #17
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Nice too see your investment get buried in the dirt. I like the MF idea but burning there existing R user will NOT go over very nicely.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    It will be ugly - if this rumor, which is one among many, including Leica re-badging Canon DSLRs (I can hear the stomachs churning over that one..), turns out to be true.

  19. #19
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Well, you missed the other rumor (same forum) from the Leica dealer who spoke with Kaufman who confirmed that the R10 will be a full frame digital body with a 24 x 36mm sensor. So there is still time to buy back some of the R lenses that were sold off in a panic. Perhaps that could be a good strategy - sell off all R lenses, wait until prices hit rock bottom and then buy them all back!

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    106
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    cmb - sent you a personal note here on the forum.

    The MF Leica at this years Photokina seems clear.

    Not sure whether they announce a plan for a 35mm R10 for say 2010...

    Peter

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: When is an R not an R?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Nice too see your investment get buried in the dirt. I like the MF idea but burning there existing R user will NOT go over very nicely.
    Nothing lasts forever, as the saying goes. Not being flippant here, just stepping back a bit and looking at all of the chatter, rumors, speculations, etc. It seems that Leica has placed itself in a tough spot. If they decide that the existing lenses for the R, which they surely cannot be selling too many lately, are not going to work for a MF sort of system, fine. Build the new glass, and get folks into it. If they are too worried about the existing user community of R-folks, who are not really buying much new glass, but hanging on to what they already have, love and cherish, then Leica may have to build/co-brand some sort of 35mm camera. Fact is that no matter how great some of the R lenses are, they are not meeting the needs of a larger 35mm user group. They lack AF or fast AF, and unless Leica is prepared to start revamping the entire line, the glass will cater to a much smaller group of users that are willing/wanting/prepared to deal with manual focus, stop-down metering, and things along this line.

    Personally, I would have loved to see Leica place a great 35mm FF DSLR into the field, along with the glass to support that, meaning updated and fast AF among other things, while NOT losing the excellent optics and present performance. Not sure they can do that. Secondly, while having Leica possibly field a MF system seems attractive in these discussions, that is not going to be an easy hill for them to climb either. They could come in somewhere in the middle.....below the very expensive MF systems we are seeing roll out now, but also a bit more than the Canon and Nikon offerings. Not sure they can do this either, as it is not clear what the target group would be.....MF folks that are already several notches up, or 35mm DSLR folks that are looking for a bit more image quality, but many are already complaining about costs of things like the 1DsMkIII. Just seems odd.

    And the idea of rebadging a Canon body.....well, I would think that Leica would have more to offer if they collaborated with Canon to produce some better short glass for them. Help them put out some absolutely killer WA glass that is edge to edge sharp wide open, that takes advantage of Canons AF system, that produces a clarity and resolution that exceeds anything Canon now has or may be willing/able to produce, and that truly serves the 1DsMkIII and beyond capabilities. I do not see this happening either, which is the other disappointment. Leica is going to struggle no matter what way they go. I hate to see this, but they have sort of brought this upon themselves by not being a bit more in tune, innovative and aggressive with offerings over the past couple of years.

    Sorry for the rant....I would love to see an outstanding 35mm FF DSLR that nips at the heels of MF systems, and has a complement of superb, fast, optics to support it, regardless of that means new mounts, new design, new whatever. The MF systems are outstanding, but they still lack the overall performance capabilities of the 35mm DSLR world, where speed and things do make a difference. Give me a 35mm DSLR with all the speed and things they have now, but with really outstanding, high resolving glass to make a 25MP sensor really shine, and I might be tempted to stop looking at MF + DSLR to fill the bill.

    LJ

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •