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Thread: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

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    Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

    1. M mount (obvious)
    2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
    3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
    4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
    5. 960K pixel LCD
    6. Keep the body as small as possible

    Feel free to add your "must-haves".
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    This could be very interesting if you consider the R lens commitment? The M wide angles below 35mm have not worked well on most of the Aps C sensors. So this could be a very difficult design if legacy glass is considered a big part of the design.

    If they go in the direction of Sony , how will they differentiate?

    I would rather see a camera thats like a small Dslr that would be about the size of the R4-7 bodies..Evf of course. Leica s success recently has been based on avoiding head on competition and developing elegant niche products.

    If you look back at Leica s history they have always had superb long glass....i ve used the telyt s forever and now the longest equivlent Fov is 135(180 s). Where is the famous 180 fov? It wasnt that long ago that leica went to schneider and zeiss for the super wides 15-21.

    I will also bet that Leica will not rebadge the camera but will want final assembly in wetzler. Using compents from asia.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    This could be very interesting if you consider the R lens commitment? The M wide angles below 35mm have not worked well on most of the Aps C sensors. So this could be a very difficult design if legacy glass is considered a big part of the design.

    .
    The only reason they haven't worked well is because they haven't been designed to work well. Leica already knows how to do this with micro lenses on both a 1.3x crop and no crop both of which are harder than implementing micro lenses in 1.5x. The complication is finding a CMOS producer to do this versus Kodak.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    These would be my preferred specifications:

    (1) M mount (obvious)
    (2) full frame sensor (perhaps CMOS)
    (3) AF on the chip (moving the chip rather than the lens)
    (4) AF should be very fast and coupled with face / nearest eye recognition, like EP-3
    (5) ultrasonic sensor cleaning (and no oil droplets on the sensor....)
    (6) high quality EVF
    (7) 960k pixel 3inch LCD
    (8) body no larger than M9
    (9) instant wake-up from sleep mode (no need to depress shutter button first)

    Perhaps this is more of an M10 spec, but so be it.

    The R lenses deserve a full frame solution - any APS-C "solution" is no solution for me (I can use a 5DII via an adapter to get better results than anything Leica can come up with in the APS-C format, albeit with compromises in handling/convenience).

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

    1. M mount (obvious)
    2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
    3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
    4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
    5. 960K pixel LCD
    6. Keep the body as small as possible

    Feel free to add your "must-haves".
    Hi,

    With exception of 4. The Ricoh GXR A12 Mount is this. (EVF is only 920K)
    I have got one and love it.
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Leica already indicated that the sensor will be at least APS-C in size. Hopefully it will have autofocus, and they will design a range of sub-$1000 lenses for it!

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Just curious, but why is the Nikon a wake up call for Leica? I just took a quick look at the specs, but to me it just looks like an even less desirable entry than micro 4/3rds. It is a minuscule-sensored camera that seems more to be aimed more at reinvigorating the point and shoot and micro-sized sensor camera markets than competing with a future Leica mirrorless camera (which I think would be full frame or close to it...especially if the R lenses are going to be part of the design philosophy). Maybe Leica would consider something like this for their D-lux and V-lux lines, but let's hope they are not considering it for something between the M series and the X series...
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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I consider it a gentle wake up call because so many higher-end shooters have crapped all over the Nikon approach.

    I do think there's room for a camera to replace the X1 with an M-mount and a great EVF. I don't need autofocus if the EVF is good enough and it offers focus peaking like the Sony and Ricoh.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

    1. M mount (obvious)
    2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
    3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
    4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
    5. 960K pixel LCD
    6. Keep the body as small as possible

    Feel free to add your "must-haves".
    Brad, this seems an aweful lot like the current GXR with M mount, given it's APS-C sized CMOS sensor sans AA filter, relatively high quality 1M pixel EVF), good LCD, small body...now if it just had the RF way of focussing, it'd be perfect, but I really am enjoying the combo with focus assist....
    Ashwin Rao
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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Ah, yes, but I need that "Leica feel and look". The GXR doesn't get me all the way there.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Ah, yes, but I need that "Leica feel and look". The GXR doesn't get me all the way there.

    Do you mean the camera or the photos?

    Have you used a GXR?
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Yes, I owned a GXR for about 24 hours. I couldn't stand the sluggishness but I understand it has gotten better with the newer firmware.

    Right now I am having fun with the Sony NEX-5 and Leica M lenses. The focus peaking works great. I have a NEX-7 on pre-order because I am a viewfinder type shooter.

    I meant the camera and the photos both.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    +1 Sony NEX-7

    I've got one on pre-order also. I love the focus peaking on the NEX-5. Should work very well with legacy lenses and that built in EVF.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Yes, I owned a GXR for about 24 hours. I couldn't stand the sluggishness but I understand it has gotten better with the newer firmware.

    Right now I am having fun with the Sony NEX-5 and Leica M lenses. The focus peaking works great. I have a NEX-7 on pre-order because I am a viewfinder type shooter.

    I meant the camera and the photos both.
    Did you try the GXR A12 M Mount though Brad? - I don't find it sluggish and it is really easy to focus quickly with focus assist or enlarge, though even that is not absolutely necessary. The EVF is essential for bright outdoor work I find. Yes, a Sony EVF would be marvellous.

    [I am only comparing my M8 and the GXR here, but I don't see a difference in the feel of the photos apart from the slightly tighter crop].

    I just feel the GXR feels more like a camera than the NEX does to me, but we are all different I appreciate.

    I shall of course be following the NEX -7 closely.
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    When I tried the GXR the M mount was not even on the radar screen, so I look forward to trying my friend Ashwin's

    The NEX-7 better be great because we all have high expectations of it.

    Shooting the NEX-5 with the screen tilted up, held near waist level reminds me of shooting a Rollieflex and also allows for some candid photography.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

    1. M mount (obvious)
    2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
    3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
    4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
    5. 960K pixel LCD
    6. Keep the body as small as possible

    Feel free to add your "must-haves".
    Curmudgeonly Comment #1:
    I have no interest in Nikon 1 or Pentax Q or any other small-sensor system camera. FourThirds format is as small as I want to do as smaller than that requires ultra-ultra fast lenses only to provide the focus zone control that I want.

    As someone else mentioned, your list specifies the Ricoh GXR + A12 Camera Mount ("GXR+A12-M") almost perfectly with the exception that the EVF is not quite that resolution. (Answering to another one of your follow on comments, the GXR+A12 Camera Mount is more responsive than the GXR+either A12 AF camera unit, most of the sluggishness you commented on have to do with the AF system, a small bit with the IO subsystem. Without the AF system issues, the IO subsystem sluggishness isn't generally too problematic. .)

    What I'd like to see Leica do is take the X1 body's control design and pack the GXR+A12-M functionality into it. Here's what I'd like in addition:

    - Make it a little bigger ... up to a maximum of Leica M4 size ... for better handling, easier to use ergonomics.
    - Build the EVF into it and give it at tilt up articulation (perfect for copy stand and low-angle shooting use.)
    - Add a much faster IO subsystem with fully buffered writes.
    - Add articulation to the LCD too, allowing it to be flipped completely closed as well.

    Of course, Ricoh could do much of the same by updating the GXR body unit or coming out with an additional "GXR-Pro" model.

    Curmudgeonly Comment #2:
    I have no interest in AF lenses. My photos with manual focus M-bayonet lenses and SLR lenses adapted to M-bayonet mount on the GXR+A12-M are proving to be consistently better focused, just like my use of adapted manual lenses with the Panasonic G1 always showed better focus consistency than I get with any autofocus system. Manual focus simply works better, most of the time, IMO.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Godfrey, I think your comments are great. I totally agree.

    I'd also like it to be available in black paint and silver chrome from day-one. No need for a sapphire LCD cover ($$$).

    It would also be great if it used the same battery as the M8/M9.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I'm with Brad (and Godfrey). There is a niche to fill here and Leica can do it. The X1 did not make me happy but I'm also not thrilled with MFT including the Panasonic G3 I have been using for a couple of months. Using M lenses and good ergonomics more important than autofocus. But I suspect Leica will do something AF and the only way to do that with M lenses is sensor moving and that adds complexity and cost.
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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    sensor moving... sounds like what Yashica tried with the Contax AX SLR -- moving the film plane to autofocus manual focus lenses. I remember it not being very well received.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Here's my prediction:
    • APS-C sensor
    • New proprietary mount with adapters for M and R lenses
    • New range of small autofocus primes which are designed by Leica but produced overseas
    • Basic controls like a Leica M with the possible exception of aperture control, which may be in the camera
    • Integrated high quality EVF
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Godfrey, I think your comments are great. I totally agree.

    I'd also like it to be available in black paint and silver chrome from day-one. No need for a sapphire LCD cover ($$$).

    It would also be great if it used the same battery as the M8/M9.
    Actually, I'd like the sapphire glass LCD cover unless I can CLOSE the LCD to protect it. I've got some scratches/marks on the GXR LCD which came from being bunged about on the neckstrap. First time I've had LCD damage ... mostly because this is the first camera I've had that is actually comfortable to use a neckstrap with in a very long time. Another "good ergonomics" issue ... :-)

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by saxshooter View Post
    sensor moving... sounds like what Yashica tried with the Contax AX SLR -- moving the film plane to autofocus manual focus lenses. I remember it not being very well received.
    Agreed...the Contax AX SLR wasn't well received but oh, what a camera for certain applications. I was able to use the body to convert all the (my) great Pentax SMCT screw mt lenses (many which could stand up to Zeiss glass) to autofocus lenses without doing a thing except mounting it on the camera. In addition, I had what was at the time some high end Tamron glass (300 f2.8 and 400 f4, and they too became autofocus with the Tamron contax adaptall mount. The body worked as advertised and was impecably built. Something like this on a smaller scale might work...re: sensor moving.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    When I tried the GXR the M mount was not even on the radar screen, so I look forward to trying my friend Ashwin's

    The NEX-7 better be great because we all have high expectations of it.

    Shooting the NEX-5 with the screen tilted up, held near waist level reminds me of shooting a Rollieflex and also allows for some candid photography.
    Ah OK Brad! - Let us know how you get on with Ashwin's GXR.

    Yes, if Leica had come out with something like the GXR by now I would probably have bought it, but I suspect it would have been a bit more expensive which is also a consideration here. As it happens I got the GXR to compliment my M8 and I am loving it.

    @Godfrey - Better put a screen protector on that GXR pronto. I got a GGS one, good protection, but a lot of glare (though I use the EVF mainly in those conditions).
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Here's my prediction:
    • APS-C sensor
    • New proprietary mount with adapters for M and R lenses
    • New range of small autofocus primes which are designed by Leica but produced overseas
    • Basic controls like a Leica M with the possible exception of aperture control, which may be in the camera
    • Integrated high quality EVF
    Hi Amin
    I'm inclined to agree with you - I actually think that's probably the right way forwards as well.

    Brad's original description may be like the Ricoh, but surely it IS a description of the NEX 7

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    @Godfrey - Better put a screen protector on that GXR pronto. I got a GGS one, good protection, but a lot of glare (though I use the EVF mainly in those conditions).
    although I normally dislike these things, I have to agree for this camera. Looks like the GGS is also marketed as the ACMAXX .. Is that correct?

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I don't think they are the same Godfrey. Have used GGS on my A900 and my wife's FZ38 as well, seem fine. Have not tried ACMAXX. Incidentally they can be removed if needs be. I fitted mine and didn't like the reflections, so removed it (It sticks onto the body not the LCD cover). I then decided I had better put it back on again because the LCD AR coating was so easily damaged apparently. So you can get a couple of goes if you want.
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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Brad's original description may be like the Ricoh, but surely it IS a description of the NEX 7
    Hi Jono,

    A but, the GXR is available now and the NEX-7 not quite yet. The GXR A12 mount was designed for Leica M mount lenses, perhaps the NEX-7 was not, we will see. Interesting times.
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    Hi Jono,

    A but, the GXR is available now and the NEX-7 not quite yet. The GXR A12 mount was designed for Leica M mount lenses, perhaps the NEX-7 was not, we will see. Interesting times.
    Yes indeed - and I guess that the Ricoh has done something so that wide angles work well?

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    ... screen protectors

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    I don't think they are the same Godfrey. Have used GGS on my A900 and my wife's FZ38 as well, seem fine. Have not tried ACMAXX. Incidentally they can be removed if needs be. I fitted mine and didn't like the reflections, so removed it (It sticks onto the body not the LCD cover). I then decided I had better put it back on again because the LCD AR coating was so easily damaged apparently. So you can get a couple of goes if you want.
    Well, they're cheap enough. I ordered one of each, will see how they compare or if they're the same thing. :-)

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes indeed - and I guess that the Ricoh has done something so that wide angles work well?
    I spent three days doing a bunch of real-world captures with the CV Skopar 21mm f/4 lens on the GXR+A12-M, examined them thoroughly last evening. I see no corner-edge smearing ... clean resolution all the way to the corners.

    Shooting a scene with a peripheral flat white wall netted what looked like some color shifting (see the Ricoh GXR threads, can't remember which one, for the "Too Many Bears" photos), but the main illumination in that case was the television and it doesn't pose a satisfactory test due to all the weird lighting from that and the sunlight from the windows. I'll have to rig up a more rigorous test.

    BTW: These are all raw captures processed in Lightroom, so whatever in-camera image processing to correct issues might do I can't say ... I haven't even looked at that yet, but I believe it works only on the in-camera JPEG outputs.

    I've tried the GXR+A12-M with several lenses now: the Skopar 21mm, the Skopar 35mm, and the Nokton 40mm all seem to work very nicely with it. I fitted a mount adapter and took a couple of exposures with Nikkor 85/1.8 and Micro-Nikkor 55/3.5 lenses ... they also performed very nicely. Today I'm fitting the Skopar 50mm f/2.5 for some testing, after which I'll test the M-Rokkor 90/4 and Ultron 28/2.

    Overall, whatever Ricoh has done in the technology, I think they've done an excellent job. I hope (and expect!) Leica to do even better. :-)

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    @Godfrey, will be interested in your findings with the two screen protectors.

    @Jono - As Godfrey wrote, they do seem to have addressed the wide angle performance on the GXR, I tried the CV 15/4.5 and it is sharp in the corners.
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Well, Leica IS developing a mirrorless camera...

    IMHO, the new Nikons are butt-freakin-ugly, and "just another P&S."

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    As to the new Nikon mirrorless... remember the Pentax 110? Cute system, interchangeable lenses... but it was a teeny 110 neg.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by saxshooter View Post
    As to the new Nikon mirrorless... remember the Pentax 110? Cute system, interchangeable lenses... but it was a teeny 110 neg.
    I remember it well! Very cool system but yeah, 110 negs are hideous. Then again, so was the Disc and APS-C.

    I started shooting 127 (or was it 126?) as a kid while my parents shot 110. I was looking to "get a real camera" and the Pentax Auto 110 and Disc cameras caught my eye... Ended up on the Chosen Path of 35mm. Whew!

    Maybe it's this early exposure to tiny formats and using a 1.6x crop camera (Canon D30) that's turned me off to these tiny sensors. Honestly, I have little interest in anything short of 1.3x to full frame these days.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    I remember it well! Very cool system but yeah, 110 negs are hideous. Then again, so was the Disc and APS-C.

    I started shooting 127 (or was it 126?) as a kid while my parents shot 110. I was looking to "get a real camera" and the Pentax Auto 110 and Disc cameras caught my eye... Ended up on the Chosen Path of 35mm. Whew!

    Maybe it's this early exposure to tiny formats and using a 1.6x crop camera (Canon D30) that's turned me off to these tiny sensors. Honestly, I have little interest in anything short of 1.3x to full frame these days.
    My first 'real' camera was a Rolleiflex TLR. 35mm was that "tiny format stuff" with poor quality. I've come to prefer smaller formats over the years, but smaller than FourThirds format is too constraining on lens choices for good focus zone control. I wouldn't bother with an interchangeable lens camera with a smaller format than that.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    My first 'real' camera was a Rolleiflex TLR. 35mm was that "tiny format stuff" with poor quality. I've come to prefer smaller formats over the years, but smaller than FourThirds format is too constraining on lens choices for good focus zone control. I wouldn't bother with an interchangeable lens camera with a smaller format than that.
    Hehehe. I'm going in the opposite direction, clearly.

    But I agree - these tiny things are not my bag either.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    "Honestly, I have little interest in anything short of 1.3x to full frame these days."

    YES! We didn't spend big money on Leica glass to only use the center 1/3 of the lenses! We love shallow depth of field and creamy bokeh.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I actually dipped my "toe into the water" of micro 4/3 earlier this year because of one lens.

    The Panasonic 20mm 1.7.

    I found a second hand Olympus EPL-1 on craigslist for $225 and mated with the Olympus VF-2 viewfinder (it's great) and that small Panny lens -- you've got a relatively compact kit and a fast lens that when shot full aperture, you actually get some nice pop and separation.

    It's my weekend digital walkabout. After I saw the quality compared to the point and shoot Lumix LX-3, I sold the Lumix the next week and never looked back.

    I think that Panasonic 20mm 1.7 turned a lot of heads towards the m4/3 format because of it's speed, size and optical attributes.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    YES! We didn't spend big money on Leica glass to only use the center 1/3 of the lenses! We love shallow depth of field and creamy bokeh.
    You know, I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not...

    But either way - guilty.

    I know in the case of DSLRs, peeping a crop VF is like looking down a tunnel. And of the tiny sensor cameras I've tried, the images were noisy, especially at higher ISOs - not to mention they were like driving a brick on a racetrack.

    But, what the hell do I know? I love "antique" Leicas and Hassys.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Well, the Pentax 110 and the APS/c film cameras would barely produce a decent 7x5 print, let alone A4.
    I'm willing to bet that the Nikon will manage splendid 24" prints in decent light - bringing up the subject of these antediluvian film mistakes is disingenuous IMHO.

    I don't want one - but I think it looks like a splendid move, and I suspect it'll be very popular; the camera may be expensive, but the lenses look sensibly priced.

    I think it's a welcome industry shake up . . . . . . .

    but I'm not cancelling my NEX 7 order!

    all the best

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    "Honestly, I have little interest in anything short of 1.3x to full frame these days."

    YES! We didn't spend big money on Leica glass to only use the center 1/3 of the lenses! We love shallow depth of field and creamy bokeh.
    The reason I've come to prefer smaller formats is that often medium format and even 35mm DoF is too shallow for my uses. I'd rather have a bit more DoF and a faster lens that I can use at lower sensitivity settings.

    Thank the gods there are choices. (I also want an M9, but it may be just a passing fancy... ;-)

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    ... I know in the case of DSLRs, peeping a crop VF is like looking down a tunnel. ...

    But, what the hell do I know? I love "antique" Leicas and Hassys.
    SLR viewfinders are particularly stressed when the format size goes down below 35mm as the illuminating source is the focusing screen and the reduction in area makes them much less efficient. This is irrelevant for electronic and optical viewfinder cameras that are not reflex cameras.

    I love antique Leicas and Hasselblads too. I miss my 903SWC, and I just bought another Leica M4-2 because I missed my M4s too much.

    What I like about the GXR+A12-M is that here we have a modern, compact digital capture body with excellent ergonomics and a reasonably sized sensor for good focus control, and the M-bayonet lenses used with it allow for all the control possibility that I need. As said above, I have little use or desire for AF systems because manual focus does me better most of the time.

    The Ricoh GXR + Leica M4-2 presents a very nice continuum of use for all of my lenses, with both film and digital capture characteristics. I hope Leica's LIVE camera, when it ships, does as well as the GXR at least.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    ^ Valid points, Godfrey!

    The smaller sensors do have that deep DoF effect which does come in handy. And if you're a tele shooter, the crop factor can be quite a benefit, especially with faster lenses.

    I go the other way - thin DoF when I want it (which honestly, is most of the time) and stop down when I want more. But with diffraction you are limited to f/8-f/11 or so...

    The 903SWC is a wonderful camera - or should I say, the lens on it is stunning. Too bad they don't work well with digital backs (say, CFV).

    I love the new cameras that can be used with M lenses for just that reason - and I love technology as much as the next guy, no doubt. But since I wear glasses to read (but not shoot) fiddling with menus and what-not is out. One of the big reasons I don't use DP&S. The Leicas on the other hand, work really well as the controls are all analog, I know where they are, the VF is bright and clear, etc. Though I admit, that GXR is very intriguing.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I try to be reasonable. ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    ... And if you're a tele shooter, the crop factor can be quite a benefit, especially with faster lenses.
    ...The 903SWC is a wonderful camera - or should I say, the lens on it is stunning. Too bad they don't work well with digital backs (say, CFV).
    The Nikkor-H 85mm on FourThirds is a good tele-shooter example. Fitted to my E-1 or E-5, it nets the FoV and DoF of the combination I used to use (Nikon F3+MD-4 motor+180/2.8) while being a stop and a third faster and half the weight/size. Lovely combination.

    Yeah, if I thought the Biogon 38 would ever work on a near "full frame" 6x6 digital back nicely, I would have put the 903SWC away and waited for the backs to arrive. Oh well.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    @Godfrey, will be interested in your findings with the two screen protectors.
    Both arrived. They're packaged quite differently and branded differently... but when I hold them up to the light, side by side, they're as identical as two supposedly different products can be.

    I fitted the GGS onto the GXR. It fits nicely and looks good. If it annoys me too much, I'll remove it. I plan to buy another GXR body unit anyway: I'll see how the ACMAXX compares when it arrives.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    The 903SWC is a wonderful camera - or should I say, the lens on it is stunning. Too bad they don't work well with digital backs (say, CFV).
    Sorry for a bit OT, just wanted to mention that I use a SWC/M with an old Imacon 132c (22mpix, 37x49mm) and it works very well. There is a thread on LL on the topic:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/fo...?topic=55849.0

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Both arrived. They're packaged quite differently and branded differently... but when I hold them up to the light, side by side, they're as identical as two supposedly different products can be.

    I fitted the GGS onto the GXR. It fits nicely and looks good. If it annoys me too much, I'll remove it. I plan to buy another GXR body unit anyway: I'll see how the ACMAXX compares when it arrives.
    Thanks Godfrey
    David Anderson

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Leica's new system will have to knock my socks off, what with the NEX7 arriving almost a full year prior!

    I say skip the M and R lens compatibility and make it an appealing modern take on what Leica can be, sans (costly) legacy baggage.

    Give it more of a sporting air with water-, dust- and shock-resistance. Since the M is none of those, it's an excuse to buy a companion system.

    APS-C is fine, keep the overall size and weight down. Something the approximate size of a Leica CL or IIIa would be good.

    Street price of about 2500 USD for a complete package with lens. Price most popular lenses below $500, and nothing over $1500.

    If it cannibalizes M sales, so be it. IMO, they should have the guts to make this system really appealing in it's own right.

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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    I would seriously doubt Leica could even make lenses for less than 500 dollars, even to lower standards, let alone make money on them. They can't build enough lenses to satisfy demand at 2000-10,000 dollars a lens. It's just not what they are set up to do as a company. They could outsource it to someone else, but from their perspective, it would probably dilute their brand image. It's like Aston Martin making that little car based on the Toyota IQ:

    But who knows what they will do? If they do it in house, I don't think you will see any lenses under 1000 dollars, nor a body under 2000. They also have a long memory of the CL -- it was a very popular camera, but it was not good for the company!
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

    Quote Originally Posted by pgmj View Post
    Sorry for a bit OT, just wanted to mention that I use a SWC/M with an old Imacon 132c (22mpix, 37x49mm) and it works very well. There is a thread on LL on the topic:
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/fo...?topic=55849.0
    Oh. My. That's some good info. Thank you! Of course, this might change everything...

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