"Goodbye, Leica"

[Double Negative]

MR's letter is no different than a post on a forum and it's important to keep in mind that it's just one user's idea of making the M9 "better."

Personally, I have zero interest in an EVF. I have no problems with exposure either. I don't care about AF, "advanced hyperfocal prompting" or a built-in thumb grip. Granted, others may feel differently. Again, it's about the simplicity of the M9 as it is. I can't help but wonder if people looking for all these things in the next digital M are just using the wrong tool. All these features exist already - in a DSLR. If I wanted all that, I'd use one.

Maybe I'm just being an old fuddy-duddy (though I've only used Leicas since 2008, RFs since 1982). But I'm content with the status quo.

Of course, I'm not talking about refinements - things like higher ISO capability or even live view (assuming the next digital M will use a CMOS sensor). But let's leave the "advanced features" and automation for a different camera. One thing I really appreciate about the Ms is that I can use them blindfolded (or without my glasses; same thing). I don't have to wade through pages of menus - something that caused me to sell my Canon G9 (and rarely if ever use the S90).

The baseplate? Okay, I can get behind that. It's just a pain in the @ss.

 

[jonoslack]

Of course, I'm not talking about refinements - things like higher ISO capability or even live view (assuming the next digital M will use a CMOS sensor). But let's leave the "advanced features" and automation for a different camera. One thing I really appreciate about the Ms is that I can use them blindfolded (or without my glasses; same thing). I don't have to wade through pages of menus - something that caused me to sell my Canon G9 (and rarely if ever use the S90).

The baseplate? Okay, I can get behind that. It's just a pain in the @ss.

LOL - well, I really like the baseplate . . . so they mustn't change that:ROTFL:
Oh! actually, I'd like to see the round tab like the older Ms rather than the flat one we now have

Today, Leica is doing well. I hope that it continues, and that they can fund the development of the next M and so on. I believe that camera's should evolve including the M, I also feel that the hybrid viewfinder/focus peaking is probably Leica's next step, and if they do I will have a look. In the end, Leica almost disappeared because it stopped evolving in the film days, one has to wonder if if doesn't evolve, is that scenario possible again...

Perhaps we don't really have to disagree:

Actually, I agree that the camera should evolve . . . . but I don't think you should take away anything it already has - so, as far as I'm concerned, I'm all happy with a hybrid viewfinder (or a plugin EVF if that's not possible). . . . .but only if you still have a proper bright optical rangefinder with the rangefinder patch.
I'd be overjoyed with focus peaking on Live view - or an EVF - or the Electrical part of a hybrid viewfinder.
I'd really like to see faster processing and thus faster shot to shot times
I'd like a quieter shutter
I'd like the camera to be thinner
I'd be quite happy with a CMOS sensor (unlike Marc I think)
I personally have no interest in video - but I can see that it might be a nice addition for many people (especially if they implemented focus peaking)
I wouldn't mind if it had a zooming rangefinder . . . as long as you could turn it off!

BUT

I feel incredibly strongly that you should be able to pick up a Leica M10/M11/M12 and have it look and feel and work exactly the same way as an M3,M6 and M9.
The point is not to sacrifice any of what's there, for what could be.
Add options by all means - but the original concept is (for some people) a gem of real beauty (which is why it IS still alive after 60 years). Let's keep that beauty.

I think it's rather like your implication that one could either be a gear head OR a serious photographer . . I think you can be both. In much the same way I think the M10/M11 can both work exactly as it does . . AND be a 'modern' camera as well - I just don't want to sacrifice the way it currently works for something else - not any bit of the way it currently works
I also think that there's real scope for producing another camera with options for AF and all the other stuff other interchangeable lens cameras have.

 

[monza]

IMHO Leica should offer a modernized body alongside the traditional.

They should introduce an M10 that's an evolution of the M9...faster, thinner, better LCD, higher ISO, etc. At the same time, introduce an M11 that brings along new technology...hybrid viewfinder, support for new AF lenses, and who knows what else.

But the real problem is that Leica is so slow to react to the market. They are leaving a lot of money on the table because they can't fill the current lens demand. There really is no need for new bodies until they get that addressed...

 

[Double Negative]

^ I was going to suggest that as well. Fork the digital M bodies into traditional/modern.

But yeah, if they can't get lenses into the hands of people that use said bodies it's all for naught.

 

[Godfrey]

A funny reader post at Huff's:

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2011/10/08/the-breakup-letter-dear-leica-m9-by-paul-lanigan/

I guess it's not for everybody after all.

Just read Steve Huff's article. Eh? who cares if it's not the right camera for him and the way he wants to shoot?

A Leica M is not the right camera for me at all times either, although a Leica lens of appropriate focal length for what I'm shooting could always be the right lens. However, a Leica M9 is a superb camera for some times, and the only question in my mind is whether those 'some times' are worth the $7000 price tag. The question isn't even whether I can afford it ... That's more of a matter of my priorities than the price.

Is a Leica M9 fast enough? I've been shooting with the M4-2 the past couple of days. It's fast enough for what I use it for, once I developed (or rather, re-acquired) the small skill required to focus it swiftly and accurately. An M9 is faster ... you don't have to wind the film and you don't have to rewind and reload it every 36 exposures.

I want a Leica M to stay a Leica M. I'd also like to see Leica release their new system, a mirrorless system camera, with all the modern conveniences AND Leica M-Bayonet lens compatibility. Because it's always the lenses that matter most ...

To Steve Huff: enjoy your Canon camera. Make great photographs. That's what matters, not whether you like M9.

 

[MGrayson]

Having looked at a lot of viewfinders recently, I'm now leaning towards getting a prescription corrective lens for the M9. It's a beautiful thing when you can see through it.

On Marc's point of subject connection and anticipation: I've heard this point made frequently, and claims to the contrary notwithstanding, I get the point. And the only way to achieve that level of mastery is practice. (The same is said with justification for tech cameras). Of course, laziness and technological alternatives make that practice harder to manage, but in the month or so since my quoted post above, I've practiced a lot with the M9, and it's getting better. Not good, not easy, but better.

Best,

Matt

 

[Double Negative]

^ I just received a custom Walter RX Eyepiece today actually (and will do a full review on it) but initial impressions are... Wow. Nice to see so clearly, as I don't wear my glasses to shoot. I can even read the screen through the VF!

 

[jonoslack]

HI Robert

IMHO Leica should offer a modernized body alongside the traditional.

They should introduce an M10 that's an evolution of the M9...faster, thinner, better LCD, higher ISO, etc. At the same time, introduce an M11 that brings along new technology...hybrid viewfinder, support for new AF lenses, and who knows what else.

Why call it an M11? that simply ends the M line as we know it.
I'm all in favour of such a camera (actually, I'm in favour of adding these facilities to an M as long as you don't remove the core functionality). . . but if you ARE going to REMOVE the core functionality (which is a constant view rangefinder with a focus patch, the basic control layout and simple menus) - then call it something else please, and keep on developing the M line as well!

 

[monza]

Sure...feel free to come up with another model number.

In my earlier post when I said 'faster' I was referring to the computer aspect: mostly displaying/zooming of images, just to clarify.

 

[Double Negative]

Call it the X1! Oh, wait.

 

[Paratom]

I am also disliking to have to wait so long for a new M lens, but I rather accept this over having to accept compromises in lens quality.

And yes, for my taste I prefer an optical rangefinder big time over focus peeking of my Nex. EVF is fine for me for a small camera where the OVF would be to small, but for everything else I much prefer the OVF.
Yes, rangefinder focusing means that lenses and body have to be calibrated very accuratly, but it is worth it IMO.

I totally share the idea that Leica must not give up the simple and classic approach of the rangefinder M. And for those who want focus peeking etc. there are Sony Nex and A77 or later maybe A99 in full frame.

 

[jonoslack]

Sure...feel free to come up with another model number.

In my earlier post when I said 'faster' I was referring to the computer aspect: mostly displaying/zooming of images, just to clarify.

HI Robert
There are lots of improvements that nobody would object to:
faster processing
better LCD
thinner body
. . . and to be honest, almost anything that anybody can come up with that's useful . . . as long as you can just turn the thing on and use a mechanical rangefinder patch and set the aperture and shutter speed with nice M lenses - just like you always did!

There's a kind of disconnect here (and certainly I'm not blaming you). But there seems to be a feeling amongst lots of people that if you like shooting with an M - then you're some kind of a luddite - whereas the truth of it is that most us around here who do like shooting with an M are quite capable of shooting with all sorts of different kit (and regularly do). I'm sure that I'm not alone in being quite happy to accept (and possibly enjoy) all sorts of benefits if I don't lose what I already have.

What I really DON'T want is to have the M10 be a kind of full frame X100 - masses of pointless menu options and no way to tell accurately where the camera has focused!

. . . . anyway, I shall stop here - boring to keep on banging the same old drum

 

[Godfrey]

...
What I really DON'T want is to have the M10 be a kind of full frame X100 - masses of pointless menu options and no way to tell accurately where the camera has focused!

. . . . anyway, I shall stop here - boring to keep on banging the same old drum

Let me bang it a few more times for you then:
+100

Leica: please keep the M an M. Don't make it into something else. The last time you tried that (the M5) it nearly killed you.

 

[monza]

Yes!

model M10: evolution

model ?x: revolution

 

[MGrayson]

There's a kind of disconnect here (and certainly I'm not blaming you). But there seems to be a feeling amongst lots of people that if you like shooting with an M - then you're some kind of a luddite -

And a perception among a different set of people (largely, but not entirely absent from these fora) that if you don't like shooting with an M that you're a weak minded lazy insensitive unprofessional technophile with interest only in shooting cats and children who <sighs while shaking head sadly> will just never get it.

I vote we drop both stereotypes. :deadhorse:

Matt

 

[Nilrem]

Do any other Leica M 9 owners long for an Exposure Lock button? Even my Hasselblad had one and it was a joy to be able to avoid backlighting for a series of shots simply by directing the lens downwards, pressing the EL button and shooting with backlighting taken care of. I sent a fax recently to Leica asking if one could be fitted : I will let you know when I hear from them. Even the Leica S2 has an EL button. On the M9 the shutter EL only works for one exposure. For a series of shots at the same exposure value , it is necessary to [1] On "A" , take a shot, pointing at a gray-card equivalent . [2] look at the LCD to read off what shutter speed had been selected. [3] Set this value on the shutter speed dial. This is a cumbersome system and surprising for a camera which is ideal [almost] for street shooting.
The advantage of a separate EL button is that exposure can be reset rapidly if the lighting conditions change. A double- press unlocks and then resets exposure without lifting the camera to the eye.

 

[Chuck Jones]

HI Robert
There are lots of improvements that nobody would object to:
faster processing
better LCD
thinner body
. . . and to be honest, almost anything that anybody can come up with that's useful . . . as long as you can just turn the thing on and use a mechanical rangefinder patch and set the aperture and shutter speed with nice M lenses - just like you always did!

There's a kind of disconnect here (and certainly I'm not blaming you). But there seems to be a feeling amongst lots of people that if you like shooting with an M - then you're some kind of a luddite - whereas the truth of it is that most us around here who do like shooting with an M are quite capable of shooting with all sorts of different kit (and regularly do). I'm sure that I'm not alone in being quite happy to accept (and possibly enjoy) all sorts of benefits if I don't lose what I already have.

What I really DON'T want is to have the M10 be a kind of full frame X100 - masses of pointless menu options and no way to tell accurately where the camera has focused!

. . . . anyway, I shall stop here - boring to keep on banging the same old drum

Jono, you and I see pretty much alike on this point. Yea, my M9 does have deficiencies, no question. It could use a megapixel boost, (24 MP being just about right in my book, but I wouldn't squawk if it was up to 36MP) and cleaner, better high ISO for low light situations. I shoot mine professionally, so the need to crop a vertical from a horizontal frame works best if I had a few more megapixels going in. Or cropping a two page spread from a vertical frame, an even more compelling case for more pixels. I shoot a lot of very low light situations professionally too, mostly music or clubs. A clean ISO 3200 or the dream of my life, ISO 6400 as clean as a whistle would force me to upgrade.

But change the overall "feel" of the body, and you force me to change how I shoot. Get me outside my comfort zone at your great risk, as then it becomes something else, not my old friend the Leica M. I've invested years learning to master shooting M bodies, and frankly at my age have no desire to relearn it all over again - with some electronic bastardized edition.

I like shooting manual. Yea, it was a bitch learning how to do that without having to think about it. I too went through thousands of "not quite right" frames. Film frames too, with the film cost and the processing extra. But after awhile, it started to sink in and I began to get slides I was proud of. In great part, honestly, because I no longer had to think about operating my camera, necessary adjustments came instinctively.

That freed me to concentrate on what was important, correct focus and framing. Composition, color, tonal range. You can see all of those with an M body, as your just looking through a glass window uncorrected. I like that! I love being able to see beyond the frame, as it gives me composition options I don't see shooting my DSLR. For moving people, it's often that I recompose by the time I get the camera up. Judging the range by eye as i take in the scene, I can adjust the lens focus "in the close enough ballpark" as I am raising the camera to my eye. I don't need to look at the lens either, I know it's a quarter turn to the left. That freedom gives me the time to recompose, and still get the moment. I can't do that either with my DSLR.

The present M9 is simple enough not to get in my way, but complex enough to yield excellent image quality as needed. The M9 is not about complex re-assignable button functions or "soft button" controls, it's about invest the time to get to know where everything is once, so you can forget about it being a camera. It's not going to change in the next "improved" model. If I don't like the changes they come out with in the M10, staying with my M9 is not going to be such a hardship.

 

[Godfrey]

Do any other Leica M 9 owners long for an Exposure Lock button? Even my Hasselblad had one and it was a joy to be able to avoid backlighting for a series of shots simply by directing the lens downwards, pressing the EL button and shooting with backlighting taken care of. I sent a fax recently to Leica asking if one could be fitted : I will let you know when I hear from them. Even the Leica S2 has an EL button. On the M9 the shutter EL only works for one exposure. For a series of shots at the same exposure value , it is necessary to [1] On "A" , take a shot, pointing at a gray-card equivalent . [2] look at the LCD to read off what shutter speed had been selected. [3] Set this value on the shutter speed dial. This is a cumbersome system and surprising for a camera which is ideal [almost] for street shooting.
The advantage of a separate EL button is that exposure can be reset rapidly if the lighting conditions change. A double- press unlocks and then resets exposure without lifting the camera to the eye.

Hmm. I wasn't aware that it didn't have an AEL button, but then, I haven't had an M8 or M9 to work with yet. You made me think a little ... when do I use it on my Ricoh GXR or Olympus SLRs?

- Because the GXR (and other Live View cameras) shows the histogram live in the viewfinder on demand, I only rarely use an AEL button with it. I just dial in the appropriate EC and let the auto-exposure do its thing.

- With the SLRs, because the optical finder cannot show a live histogram, I do use the AEL button to set exposure before reframing but only very occasionally. I more often have the AEL button programmed to lock the focus so that I can re-frame without disturbing my focus setting.

- With either, if i'm going to be making a number of exposures in the same lighting and at the same exposure settings, I tend to switch to manual exposure, meter, and then just shoot. I find it simpler than remembering when to unlock the AEL. (With the Ricoh, there's a wonderful shortcut in Manual exposure mode: just tap the plus or minus button and the exposure setting will jump to the meter's recommended setting immediately, making it really "semi-automatic" metering.)

The long and the short of it is that I'll most likely be in manual metering anyway for any situation where the light is constant, and I'm almost always doing "one shot only" shooting when I'm in an automated exposure mode. So the presence or lack of an AEL button is probably not of much importance to me on the M9.

But it is interesting ... I didn't know that about the M9 ... learn something new every day.

 

[Chuck Jones]

Do any other Leica M 9 owners long for an Exposure Lock button? Even my Hasselblad had one and it was a joy to be able to avoid backlighting for a series of shots simply by directing the lens downwards, pressing the EL button and shooting with backlighting taken care of. I sent a fax recently to Leica asking if one could be fitted : I will let you know when I hear from them. Even the Leica S2 has an EL button. On the M9 the shutter EL only works for one exposure. For a series of shots at the same exposure value , it is necessary to [1] On "A" , take a shot, pointing at a gray-card equivalent . [2] look at the LCD to read off what shutter speed had been selected. [3] Set this value on the shutter speed dial. This is a cumbersome system and surprising for a camera which is ideal [almost] for street shooting.
The advantage of a separate EL button is that exposure can be reset rapidly if the lighting conditions change. A double- press unlocks and then resets exposure without lifting the camera to the eye.

Well, I guess you could do it that way. Or you could learn to use your camera set in the M mode, then simply change your shutter speed with the dial as needed, or the aperture if your not concerned with depth of focus. Personally, I'd rather avoid having to have yet another button to get in the mix.

 

[fotografz]

Funny - it's one of the things I like about weddings - the adrenalin involved in getting those 'must have' shots - getting back from the church and finding that someone has moved the barrier and there are BMW X5s and Mercs parked all over the sweep in front of the house where the group shots were going to be . . . . . and it'll be dark in ten minutes . . . and it's starting to rain. It's no time to have a camera misbehave . . or to have made an esoteric decision about what to shoot!

The beauty of the M9 though is that you can easily have it slung around your neck just in case it suddenly becomes the right thing. . . . .

Exactly how I use it. Then it's the A900 slung over the shoulder while the M9 does its thing.

-Marc